Will NPO's membership revolt?

[hawk11]

Perhaps you did not get the point: The idea that you can brainwash people or form a personality cult over this kind of medium is laughable. I laughed at it when I first saw it 3 years ago, and I laugh at it now. Your entire argument is nothing more than an ad hominem fallacy attempting to discredit every single opinion a member of the New Pacific Order offers by associating their opinions with "brainwashing" and thus undermining their legitimacy.

You know why that is a fallacy? Because your argument for 'proving' us wrong is "you're posting what you are told to post". You do not address the content of what we write. And if you are going to try and sell off "You are a personality cult" or anything that attempts to prove a point by denigrating the opposing team as a serious argument, then all I can say is that I pity you.

Honestly if you guys think I'm smart or patient enough to dictate this kind of argument through proxies, you have more faith in my mental capacity than I do.

[Fallen Fool]

In any case, NPO is essentially coup proof.

No alliance is coup proof.

That being said, I find it highly unlikely that NPO will suffer any internal revolt because its leadership seems to be united and supportive of Moo, and because their leadership are quite effective at quashing internal dissent among the membership through a variety of means.

[HeinousOne]

*shakes head* While our culture lends itself to the ideals of Francoism, you have misplaced where our cause is. In fact I think that is biggest issue here. The NPO is not a matter of a cult of personality but rather a group of people that strive for a goal. That goal can be achieved by a million different methods, we happen to like ours and that is what unifies us, not a single person or those ideals, but rather how we CHOOSE to execute. To attempt to state rationality doesn't exist (yet cover your own words by saying its not "necessarily the rule of behavior.") is simply poppy$@. You feel as if just because an IO or Moo says something its true. In a vacuum that is true, what you fail (intentionally) to mention is how EVERY SINGLE TIME there is an issue, we are given the information in whole. EVEN when it may look bad for us. But then I wouldn't expect anyone who dislikes the NPO to WANT to see that.

First thing I must say is thank you Brehon for the intelligent response which thus brings about debate. You remember me well enough to know such is what I respect.

Now to respond to this first paragraph. I did not fail to mention that every single time there is an issue that you are given information in whole. Perhaps YOU received such as a Councilor but the Body was not always given such. In fact I remember times when I asked questions to know such things as what the leaders were doing to bring the entire world to a mindset of anti-npo. The responses I got from such wonderful flowery personalities in NPO Diplo were "stop being a headache" and "trust your leaders". My experiences within NPO contradict what you are trying to say.

You yourself know in the past (and still true now) the members BEG to be able to post because they get tired of the BS that is flung against us, our alliance, our allies, our leaders and our general members. They want to post on the outrage we feel when people feign brotherhood and like cause, only until they have what they perceive as a chance to "one up" the NPO. Our active membership is VERY aware and very educated as to CN. To continue to insult them is to beg for our rage to grow. But then that too suits your cause doesn't it?

Yes, some of the members ask to be able to post but Many others make similiar statements such as "The OWF is a cesspool and I do not wish to ever post there". If the world could see the number of these and which Personalities post them they might begin to see the power such might have to form the opinions of lesser personalities that have yet to experience the OWF. You then go on to try and define "my cause". You have no idea what my cause is but I will tell you this, while many others may wish to see the NPO destroyed, I do not.

You hit the crux of the matter with your last bit. Reach out to other alliances. Why? Why should we? Every time we have, we have been bit only to watch them cry foul as if they were wronged. Its a great time for other alliances to take the top seat. We have admitted our errors, we will grow from them. Pray you don't grow to be the grass under our feet, because in all seriousness, you will not see the NPO have a revolt because we are one. Keep the terms and other bs the way you have it, you only fuel our rage. And once this is done, NPO will be stronger and you will sit in fear wondering when we will settle the debts being made

We don't need to follow blindly, makes us bad soldiers and leaders. We see you and we want you to see us, always forward Pacifica Prevails

The reason why the hand that reaches out is bit everytime is because the hand that reaches out is always in the form of a pointing finger followed quickly by words of "teaching". I am somewhat saddened that you decided to finalize your statement with words of future vengeance. Such will not help your cause and will likely be quoted many times in order to emblazen it in the memories of those reading.

[Brehon]

No alliance is coup proof.

That being said, I find it highly unlikely that NPO will suffer any internal revolt because its leadership seems to be united and supportive of Moo, and because their leadership are quite effective at quashing internal dissent among the membership through a variety of means.

You do realize the body of Pacifica (as a majority) does not accept these terms and we CHEERED for Moo denying them? Its not just the leadership that is united and supportive of Moo.... its all of us. Learn that fact and understand the futility of this topic

See you soon.

[WarriorConcept]

No alliance is coup proof.

That being said, I find it highly unlikely that NPO will suffer any internal revolt because its leadership seems to be united and supportive of Moo, and because their leadership are quite effective at quashing internal dissent among the membership through a variety of means.

Essentially what this dude said. They proved it during the counter-coup of Ivan.

[hawk11]

You do realize the body of Pacifica (as a majority) does not accept these terms and we CHEERED for Moo denying them? Its not just the leadership that is united and supportive of Moo.... its all of us. Learn that fact and understand the futility of this topic

See you soon.

Brehon, you only did that after we strapped you to a chair and beat you. Admit it to them, or we'll do it again.

[jer]

You know why that is a fallacy? Because your argument for 'proving' us wrong is "you're posting what you are told to post". You do not address the content of what we write.

No-one is saying you literally get spoon-fed opinions that you have to post as your own, but we can gather from anecdotal evidence that the NPO has a culture of extreme conformity. If you want to be accepted in the NPO you can never disagree with the leaders and instead must spend your time sitting in your own little corner of the world telling each other about how great and wonderful the NPO is in each and every way. Whether you all actually believe in Moo o/ IOs o/ Hailing o/ and so on is irrelevant, what matters is that you say it. You all conform to blissful ignorance and it makes you seem rather odd when you come on here saying how great the NPO is and how it's leaders are all wonderful people and everyone else is scum, when we (who actually take note of the world we live in with non-NPO-conformist eyes) see the exact opposite.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Aimee Mann

[HeinousOne]

Perhaps you did not get the point: The idea that you can brainwash people or form a personality cult over this kind of medium is laughable. I laughed at it when I first saw it 3 years ago, and I laugh at it now. Your entire argument is nothing more than an ad hominem fallacy attempting to discredit every single opinion a member of the New Pacific Order offers by associating their opinions with "brainwashing" and thus undermining their legitimacy.

You know why that is a fallacy? Because your argument for 'proving' us wrong is "you're posting what you are told to post". You do not address the content of what we write. And if you are going to try and sell off "You are a personality cult" or anything that attempts to prove a point by denigrating the opposing team as a serious argument, then all I can say is that I pity you.

You think that brainwashing is only done by direct means. Brainwashing is an overused term meant to make a point seem improbable. Now you state my statement was meant to discredit every single opinion made by a NPO member? What is the point of that when it comes to subconsciously suggesting to newer NPO members on what to think about what I say Letum? You say such despite how I respectfully respond to the NPO member that started his own thread and even defended his use of Peace Mode. You show your hand all too easily Letum.

If you felt my statement was denigrating your side then that is a statement on your side because I come to such conclusions mainly from my own time WITHIN NPO. Now, I am sure members were never directly told to post but if I could see the announcement by Moo stating that the radio silence was lifted I bet I would see some words resembling a statement encouraging regular members to state how they feel about what is going on.

[Brehon]

First thing I must say is thank you Brehon for the intelligent response which thus brings about debate. You remember me well enough to know such is what I respect.

Now to respond to this first paragraph. I did not fail to mention that every single time there is an issue that you are given information in whole. Perhaps YOU received such as a Councilor but the Body was not always given such. In fact I remember times when I asked questions to know such things as what the leaders were doing to bring the entire world to a mindset of anti-npo. The responses I got from such wonderful flowery personalities in NPO Diplo were "stop being a headache" and "trust your leaders". My experiences within NPO contradict what you are trying to say.

Yes, some of the members ask to be able to post but Many others make similiar statements such as "The OWF is a cesspool and I do not wish to ever post there". If the world could see the number of these and which Personalities post them they might begin to see the power such might have to form the opinions of lesser personalities that have yet to experience the OWF. You then go on to try and define "my cause". You have no idea what my cause is but I will tell you this, while many others may wish to see the NPO destroyed, I do not.

The reason why the hand that reaches out is bit everytime is because the hand that reaches out is always in the form of a pointing finger followed quickly by words of "teaching". I am somewhat saddened that you decided to finalize your statement with words of future vengeance. Such will not help your cause and will likely be quoted many times in order to emblazen it in the memories of those reading.

I will agree to disagree on the other points, save the last one (I was an educated and informed member long before I was an educated and informed councilor. The last one is NOT a threat of future violence, but rather we WILL remember the stances and comments of everyone. Not because we wish to hurt you, but because we will protect ourselves from you (proverbial you). We will always conduct ourselves in our recourse to you (again proverbial) based in HOW you act and WHAT you do. That has always been the case.

Outside people wish for the general membership to be blind, it strengthens their visions regardless of truth or fallacy. I must agree with Terry Goodkind when he stated: "People are stupid and will believe anything. Either because they WISH it was true or are AFRAID its true".

HAWK you promised no more!!!!!!

[Brehon]

You think that brainwashing is only done by direct means. Brainwashing is an overused term meant to make a point seem improbable. Now you state my statement was meant to discredit every single opinion made by a NPO member? What is the point of that when it comes to subconsciously suggesting to newer NPO members on what to think about what I say Letum? You say such despite how I respectfully respond to the NPO member that started his own thread and even defended his use of Peace Mode. You show your hand all too easily Letum.

If you felt my statement was denigrating your side then that is a statement on your side because I come to such conclusions mainly from my own time WITHIN NPO. Now, I am sure members were never directly told to post but if I could see the announcement by Moo stating that the radio silence was lifted I bet I would see some words resembling a statement encouraging regular members to state how they feel about what is going on.

It was simple....People wanted to be heard, wanted to express their rage and put up their thoughts vs being spoken for. You cannot claim one and then claim the other as it suits. We wanted to post, we asked to be able to post and after a long wait, we were allowed.

The great thing is this: You don't have to agree with me for this to be true.

[uaciaut]

You need a leader for a revolt and i see no one in the NPO lower ranks who is charismatic, intelligent and witty enough to be able to pull all of it off.

And not trying to instigate but the mere fact that you stood behind Moo instead of Ivan so easily a while back did have a huge impact on NPO's faith so i do think they should challenge their leadership's decision a whole lot more than they did then (and generally seem to do).

[HeinousOne]

I will agree to disagree on the other points, save the last one (I was an educated and informed member long before I was an educated and informed councilor. The last one is NOT a threat of future violence, but rather we WILL remember the stances and comments of everyone. Not because we wish to hurt you, but because we will protect ourselves from you (proverbial you). We will always conduct ourselves in our recourse to you (again proverbial) based in HOW you act and WHAT you do. That has always been the case.

Outside people wish for the general membership to be blind, it strengthens their visions regardless of truth or fallacy. I must agree with Terry Goodkind when he stated: "People are stupid and will believe anything. Either because they WISH it was true or are AFRAID its true".

HAWK you promised no more!!!!!!

Your agreement with Terry Goodkind doesn't exactly equate to my statements being false, you realize that right?

[Vladimir]

when we (who actually take note of the world we live in with non-NPO-conformist eyes) see the exact opposite.

This is what it comes down to. You are justifying all this nonsense (exactly as Letum describes) because we disagree with you. To disagree with you, it is therefore assumed, is an act of complete insanity that no rational person could possible partake in. The flawed assumption here is obviously that you are the embodiment of objective truth, while everyone else is coming from a subjective position. This ignores that you too are coming from a subjective perspective, with subjective interests and subjective access to and emphasis of information.

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them brainwashed. It doesn't even make them wrong. In fact, for a crazy twist, it might even mean that you are wrong! Unpossible!

[Brehon]

Your agreement with Terry Goodkind doesn't exactly equate to my statements being false, you realize that right?

Very aware of such. As I already said I would agree to disagree (as my experiences have been NOTHING like yours. My Terry Goodkind comment was a general comment for the topic as a whole.

[HeinousOne]

This is what it comes down to. You are justifying all this nonsense (exactly as Letum describes) because we disagree with you. To disagree with you, it is therefore assumed, is an act of complete insanity that no rational person could possible partake in. The flawed assumption here is obviously that you are the embodiment of objective truth, while everyone else is coming from a subjective position. This ignores that you too are coming from a subjective perspective, with subjective interests and subjective access to and emphasis of information.

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them brainwashed. It doesn't even make them wrong. In fact, for a crazy twist, it might even mean that you are wrong! Unpossible!

Considering her words seem to have come in support of my words that were challenged, would you say the same thing to me that you said to Aimee in that I am coming only from a subjective perspective from outside the NPO?

Edit: Lost track of time, I beg your pardon if I am not able to respond right away Vladimir but I will later should you see fit to respond.

Edited June 18, 2009 by HeinousOne

[WarriorConcept]

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them brainwashed. It doesn't even make them wrong. In fact, for a crazy twist, it might even mean that you are wrong! Unpossible!

You accepted NPO lost GWI?

[Bilrow]

No-one is saying you literally get spoon-fed opinions that you have to post as your own, but we can gather from anecdotal evidence that the NPO has a culture of extreme conformity. If you want to be accepted in the NPO you can never disagree with the leaders and instead must spend your time sitting in your own little corner of the world telling each other about how great and wonderful the NPO is in each and every way. Whether you all actually believe in Moo o/ IOs o/ Hailing o/ and so on is irrelevant, what matters is that you say it. You all conform to blissful ignorance and it makes you seem rather odd when you come on here saying how great the NPO is and how it's leaders are all wonderful people and everyone else is scum, when we (who actually take note of the world we live in with non-NPO-conformist eyes) see the exact opposite.

The people who know the right way to disagree, as I and a lot of others, do not have a problem with expressing ourself and being listened to.

[Delta1212]

If I enforced a right and wrong way to disagree half my alliance would have been out on the street ages ago. They're cool like that.

[Bilrow]

If I enforced a right and wrong way to disagree half my alliance would have been out on the street ages ago. They're cool like that.

Course my definition of the "wrong way" is to sell out the alliance in a fit of rage.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Bilrow

[Letum]

You think that brainwashing is only done by direct means. Brainwashing is an overused term meant to make a point seem improbable. Now you state my statement was meant to discredit every single opinion made by a NPO member? What is the point of that when it comes to subconsciously suggesting to newer NPO members on what to think about what I say Letum? You say such despite how I respectfully respond to the NPO member that started his own thread and even defended his use of Peace Mode. You show your hand all too easily Letum.

The amount of respect a person shows does not have to correspond to the logic of the arguments used. You do not need to intend to portray your opponent as a monster to use an ad-homimen fallacy; people use it every day, without even knowing it. It is a lack of logic, not deliberate maliciousness. No matter what your intentions may be, the fact that you use "cult of personality!" as the basis of your argument, undermines it completely.

You directly say that we are posting here because someone in the "cult of personality said (or encouraged) it was necessary". You directly say that we are doing this "to gain favor from the Personalities and in turn begin to have their name rise up in the cult". You do not see this as an ad hominem attack? You do not see it as undermining what we say, without actually addressing the content of our posts?

If you felt my statement was denigrating your side then that is a statement on your side because I come to such conclusions mainly from my own time WITHIN NPO. Now, I am sure members were never directly told to post but if I could see the announcement by Moo stating that the radio silence was lifted I bet I would see some words resembling a statement encouraging regular members to state how they feel about what is going on.

Is your time within NPO supposed to somehow add rationality to an argument based on a fallacy? And the announcement from Moo stating that radio silence was lifted was one line at the end of the announcement about the reps offered. It said "Radio Silence is lifted" and reminded everyone to "Use common sense and post intelligently. If you are angry, do not post". There was no encouradgement whatsoever, and even if there was, so what? Are we incapable of posting because perhaps, we want to post? Do you honestly think that the only reason I would be on these forums is because someone else wanted me to? Is being in the Pacific somehow supposed to rob us of our free will?

We are all real people with our own minds. Just because we do not agree with the conclusions of other people does not mean we are brainwashed. History is filled with examples of perfectly intelligent people with their wits about them coming to completely different conclusions about the same event.

Our opinions are our own. I do not disagree with you because someone has spoon-fed me anything, I have formed my opinion because I have been on planet bob for 3 years, I have been in a government position on both "sides", I have seen pretty much all the information involved, and I am a perfectly rational individual who just happens to have come to a different conclusion that other rational individuals.

And I also happen to be sick of seeing empty "You are brainwashed" lines being repeated whenever we make an argument in our favour.

[Starfox101]

The independent thinkers all left - and became Vox Populi.

There's nobody there left with a free mind, to lead a revolt.

[Delta1212]

Course my definition of the "wrong way" is to sell out the alliance in a fit of rage.

It would be interesting to see what your definition of selling out the alliance is.

[Vladimir]

Considering her words seem to have come in support of my words that were challenged, would you say the same thing to me that you said to Aimee in that I am coming only from a subjective perspective from outside the NPO?

That question doesn't really make sense following from what I said. But I'll respond to what I think you are asking anyway.

Having been in the NPO does not make you infallible, nor any more objective in the way you see things. It does not even necessarily make you more knowledgeable on how the NPO operates. A past alliance affiliation doesn't magic knowledge or impartiality into your head -- indeed, it often seems to have the exact opposite effect.

[Ogaden]

It would be interesting to see what your definition of selling out the alliance is.

Feeding intelligence to our enemies, and posting 'you all suck' resignation letters on the world forums are two popular options.

Edited June 18, 2009 by James Dahl

[D34th]

So Karma is now attacking NPO membership because they agree with their leadership. Classy move.