Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[TypoNinja]

B2) Reparations of up to 300,000 tech and $7,000,000,000 will be assessed upon the New Pacific Order. This shall be determined dependent on their ability to pay after the aforementioned period of war, in the judgment of the Karma signatories of this document

Your math is meaningless, see the bolded sections.

[Lord of Destruction]

Perhaps the New Pacific Order should consider kicking out the members who refuse to obey the order to come out of peace mode. If that happens, those rogue members would not impact the 90 percent requirement that the term requires. No one man is above the welfare of the alliance after all.

Like Moo said in the OP, it was considered. However, he (and the rest of the Imperial Leadership) knows that it would be wrong to do so. Expelling people because of foreign pressure is not only a breach of your sovereignty, but also betraying those you expel, especially when those expelled would be people who have been loyal and dedicated to Pacifica for a very long time.

[bbrownso]

Your counter offer was to buy us off with a paltry sum in exchange for keeping your war machine intact. It's frankly rather insulting.

I'm surprised to see the day when 1 billion dollars is considered a paltry sum. Even if their "war machine" is kept intact, it would be solely focused on repaying reps and rebuilding for months.

The only conclusions that seem apparent from this tactic is that Karma alliances are vindictive and want to completely destroy the NPO. Or that the alliances in Karma are so scared of NPO that they feel the need to keep NPO down long enough to reorganize since Karma seems disorganized and likely to fall apart sooner rather than later.

[Teriethien]

Like Moo said in the OP, it was considered. However, he (and the rest of the Imperial Leadership) knows that it would be wrong to do so. Expelling people because of foreign pressure is not only a breach of your sovereignty, but also betraying those you expel, especially when those expelled would be people who have been loyal and dedicated to Pacifica for a very long time.

So, a question that has been brought up before:

If these nations refuse to decom military improvements after the war in contravention of (usual) terms, wouldthe NPO not expell them?

[FireLordZuko]

At one point GPA was the biggest alliance in CN.

Mary has the experience. saying otherwise is just dumb.

Yet Mary was president for only a term and that was waaaaaaaaaaaaay before GPA was the largest alliance in CN

Dilber helped make the Initiative and Drinking Buddies and at the the time he helped make the strongest group in CN

Comparing Dilber to anyone else in NPO is injustice

[TypoNinja]

You think our war machine is INTACT?

You're crazy.

NPO was a huge alliance, even half beat to hell you still maintain a sanction. Are you as strong as you used to be? no. but still strong enough to be a sanctioned alliance.

[Lord of Destruction]

You missed my point. I said if you were really commited to peace you would have tried to negotiate ao compromise on the peace mode nations, like getting garauntees on what would consitute the start of the timer, what would happen in the case of a violation, and so on. Instead after your first counter offer gets rejected you come on here with a publicity stunt that's not, overal, gonna really win you any sympathies.

We would have, had they not said "These terms are final, and they will not be changed."

Your math is meaningless, see the bolded sections.

Don't you just love nonspecific terms? I sure do!

[Teriethien]

You think our war machine is INTACT?

You're crazy.

The moment you lose sanction I would join you in campaigning for white peace for Pacifica.

[Ragashingo]

Like Moo said in the OP, it was considered. However, he (and the rest of the Imperial Leadership) knows that it would be wrong to do so. Expelling people because of foreign pressure is not only a breach of your sovereignty, but also betraying those you expel, especially when those expelled would be people who have been loyal and dedicated to Pacifica for a very long time.

Which is why your forced many alliances over the years to expel people and keep them out. Heck you even started wars over people being accidently let back in.

[Letum]

Your math is meaningless, see the bolded sections.

See the multiple points in this thread where the leaders of the alliances fighting us have stated that they never* want us to rebuild again. Also see the multiple points where they say reps aren't going down.

(* [ooc]and by never in a game like CN, people practically mean a period measured in one or two years[/ooc])

Given their outright refusal to consider the math we offer them without actually going through it to refute it (other than the "Warchests will cancel out all damage"! line, I have not seen our math on war damages adressed. And look up to my previous post on why that specific defence does not apply), we cannot really trust their ability to suddenly consider it when we are further beat down.

So yeah, saying "your math is meaningless because you should trust us to scale it down" when you all feel you have a right to be out for our blood....it doesn't really work..

[Minilla Island]

Instead of guessing how many banks we have, maybe this should have been something spoken about in peace talks to find out exactly how many we have.

Secondly, we did not help to put crippling terms on Polaris. We have never put terms on Polaris. Do you know why? We've never fought them. As much as you'd like to believe we're the "big bad puppetmasters", we're not.

Lastly, we're willing to pay. More than willing. We even proposed alterations to the terms that would pay more than what had been asked of us. All we ask is for that 90%/14 days thing to be removed. Also, allowing for every nation we have to send reps instead of limiting who can send it would be nice.

What are you talking about? Moo was present in the talks! That is PUBLIC knowledge. It was Moo who told Grub that the terms were just for Polars crimes! It was Moo who helped formulate the terms! Do you know what a ruckus that caused in Polaris? We had people stop participating in the forums! We had people, good people, like Random, Penchuk and HannaH forced out the door. No, you did not fight your "brothers". You did not have to. You had your meatshields do it for you!

So, you are willing to pay? Then, stop bellyaching, get a hold of Londo, and sign the terms already so we can all enjoy the summer.

[Ragashingo]

I'm surprised to see the day when 1 billion dollars is considered a paltry sum. Even if their "war machine" is kept intact, it would be solely focused on repaying reps and rebuilding for months.

The only conclusions that seem apparent from this tactic is that Karma alliances are vindictive and want to completely destroy the NPO. Or that the alliances in Karma are so scared of NPO that they feel the need to keep NPO down long enough to reorganize since Karma seems disorganized and likely to fall apart sooner rather than later.

Those are the only conclusions you can come up with. Are you bad at conclusions or are you just not trying?

[AlmightyGrub]

Like Moo said in the OP, it was considered. However, he (and the rest of the Imperial Leadership) knows that it would be wrong to do so. Expelling people because of foreign pressure is not only a breach of your sovereignty, but also betraying those you expel, especially when those expelled would be people who have been loyal and dedicated to Pacifica for a very long time.

I have managed to stay out of this thread for a very long time, but this particular statement just crossed the line.

You are seriously kidding me, seriously are you deluded?

Whatever minor sympathy I had for you just went out the window and shattered into a million tiny fragments of glass.

Also, you may want to check your facts on the imposition of terms on Polaris.... I can provide logs for you if you would like or would that shatter the illusion?

I am sure Random, Mussolandia et al appreciate your sovereignty.

Take the terms, don't take the terms, but FFS can you stop bleating a position that you have been more than happy to accept dozens of times before when the shoe was on the other foot.

[TypoNinja]

Don't you just love nonspecific terms? I sure do!

Awww, whats the matter, afraid we'll take a page out of your book and screw you over on the wording of the terms instead of being reasonable?

My heart bleeds.

There is always a certain amount of trust involved in any surrender terms, NPO of course never having been trustworthy can't imagine how anyone else could be. They can only picture what they would do in our place.

[Big Z]

especially when those expelled would be people who have been loyal and dedicated to Pacifica for a very long time.

How are they dedicated if they refuse to listen to high command and obey orders? They are directly jeopardizing the alliance by refusing to come out. If you call them compatriots and loyal followers, then you have a truly warped view on what loyalty is. If anything, I'd call them cowards for basically deserting the alliance when she needs them the most.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Big Z

[Ragashingo]

See the multiple points in this thread where the leaders of the alliances fighting us have stated that they never* want us to rebuild again. Also see the multiple points where they say reps aren't going down.

(* [ooc]and by never in a game like CN, people practically mean a period measured in one or two years[/ooc])

Given their outright refusal to consider the math we offer them without actually going through it to refute it (other than the "Warchests will cancel out all damage"! line, I have not seen our math on war damages adressed. And look up to my previous post on why that specific defence does not apply), we cannot really trust their ability to suddenly consider it when we are further beat down.

So yeah, saying "your math is meaningless because you should trust us to scale it down" when you all feel you have a right to be out for our blood....it doesn't really work..

Just curious. Which leader of an alliance fighting you said they never want you to rebuild?

[Seerow]

Jeeze this is still going on?

Okay, well since it is I have a question to the NPO:

The main qualm with the 2 weeks at 90% in war mode seems to be the fear of indefinite war. I want to know, if Karma offered the following right now would it be taken, or would you find another excuse?

-Peace is declared effective immediately. All nations in peace mode at the time of this posting (a list will be made by Karma to be shared with NPO for future reference) are marked. Upon leaving peace mode, any nation on this list will be subject to 2 cycles of war, at which point they will be peaced. During this time the attacked member is to be treated as a rogue, no outside aid may be given, or any wars declared in defense of the nation. Any nation remaining in peace mode for a duration of 30 days beyond the expiration of all other terms will be absolved of this war requirement.

This very clearly brings about an end to the war, solves the activity problem, and leaves no loopholes for an indefinite war. It should fix all of the issues NPO has brought up, except for their inability to pay after war. Karma has stated they are willing to renegotiate the reparations should it be deemed impossible for them to be met with the state of the alliance after the wars. Really it shouldn't be too hard to coordinate gather intel operations on the NPO given how many alliances are involved to get an accurate assessment of all warchests to see what is and is not possible.

[Teriethien]

We would have, had they not said "These terms are final, and they will not be changed."

Saying that getting the bulk(90%) of NPO nations out of the peace mode is final doesn't mean that Karma won't give any gaurauntees to not use the terms to keep NPO in eternal war. Either way as I said before I don't know what happened and I'm just voicing my thoughts based on what has been said in this thread.

This also induced me to think that while overal objective probably won't change, the details might have been negotiable.

Actually, it was brought up several times during the end of negotiations tonight, from what I saw when I came home, that very few alliances had representatives on right now, and they couldn't make a decision right now. NPO was told that the counter-offer was rejected for now, and that it probably wouldn't be accepted down the line either, but maybe.

[arch3004]

Since they like being in peace so much why not just say that 85-90% of their nations must be in peace while they are fulfilling their terms? Somewhere within that range you get 50 nations able to send the reps. The ones out of peace must only send reps. Perhaps give them a few more nations for the bill locked but that's it.

Won't this get rid of the possibility that they won't be able to complete terms, while hindering thier rebuild, and at the same time make it easier to defend a 700+ nation alliance.

[Ogaden]

I have managed to stay out of this thread for a very long time, but this particular statement just crossed the line.

You are seriously kidding me, seriously are you deluded?

Whatever minor sympathy I had for you just went out the window and shattered into a million tiny fragments of glass.

Also, you may want to check your facts on the imposition of terms on Polaris.... I can provide logs for you if you would like or would that shatter the illusion?

I am sure Random, Mussolandia et al appreciate your sovereignty.

Take the terms, don't take the terms, but FFS can you stop bleating a position that you have been more than happy to accept dozens of times before when the shoe was on the other foot.

Grub how many times can you "lose all your sympathy"? Doesn't losing all your sympathy imply that you don't have any more?

[AlmightyGrub]

Grub how many times can you "lose all your sympathy"? Doesn't losing all your sympathy imply that you don't have any more?

How very clever of you... seal your own fate you pathetic drone. Your arrogance becomes you

[Drai]

Jeeze this is still going on?

Okay, well since it is I have a question to the NPO:

The main qualm with the 2 weeks at 90% in war mode seems to be the fear of indefinite war. I want to know, if Karma offered the following right now would it be taken, or would you find another excuse?

-Peace is declared effective immediately. All nations in peace mode at the time of this posting (a list will be made by Karma to be shared with NPO for future reference) are marked. Upon leaving peace mode, any nation on this list will be subject to 2 cycles of war, at which point they will be peaced. During this time the attacked member is to be treated as a rogue, no outside aid may be given, or any wars declared in defense of the nation. Any nation remaining in peace mode for a duration of 30 days beyond the expiration of all other terms will be absolved of this war requirement.

This very clearly brings about an end to the war, solves the activity problem, and leaves no loopholes for an indefinite war. It should fix all of the issues NPO has brought up, except for their inability to pay after war. Karma has stated they are willing to renegotiate the reparations should it be deemed impossible for them to be met with the state of the alliance after the wars. Really it shouldn't be too hard to coordinate gather intel operations on the NPO given how many alliances are involved to get an accurate assessment of all warchests to see what is and is not possible.

This is by far the best post I've seen in this thread in recent memory.

[Sal Paradise]

I have managed to stay out of this thread for a very long time, but this particular statement just crossed the line.

You are seriously kidding me, seriously are you deluded?

Whatever minor sympathy I had for you just went out the window and shattered into a million tiny fragments of glass.

Also, you may want to check your facts on the imposition of terms on Polaris.... I can provide logs for you if you would like or would that shatter the illusion?

I am sure Random, Mussolandia et al appreciate your sovereignty.

Take the terms, don't take the terms, but FFS can you stop bleating a position that you have been more than happy to accept dozens of times before when the shoe was on the other foot.

I'm glad I randomly decided to read the last page of this obscenely long thread.

The poster and the message. Mmm.. I suppose I will randomly enter this thread again later and see what other treats await me.

Nicely put Mr. Grub.

[Ogaden]

How very clever of you... seal your own fate you pathetic drone. Your arrogance becomes you

Ah there we go, I prefer it when you're honest with me.

Let's be more honest with each other in the future.

[Schattenmann]

Like Moo said in the OP, it was considered. However, he (and the rest of the Imperial Leadership) knows that it would be wrong to do so. Expelling people because of foreign pressure is not only a breach of your sovereignty, but also betraying those you expel, especially when those expelled would be people who have been loyal and dedicated to Pacifica for a very long time.

So it was cool to give GPA neverending (at the time) peace terms (nuke limits) when they didn't respond to your demands of leadership expulsion/change, but it's not cool for your to be refused terms if you refuse to have your sovereignty breached in the same way?