Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Gn0xious Jr]

Have you ever led a 700+ member alliance and tried to get them all into war mode so they can get blown to bits for several weeks during the home stretch of a curb stomp?

Have you ever led a 100+ member alliance and tried to explain to them why a 700+ member alliance is curbstomping them, when there is no just cause and no valid CB, simply because someone at sometime may have looked at them wrong? Have you then had to organize unreasonable reps from the aggressor, and pay over 3-6 months? all because the 700+ member alliance wanted you to?

[lakerzz8]

100% is possible if they punt members who have been loyal for several years. I would send them packing, but it's not my call and I understand feeling loyalty to members that have served for years and not wanting to throw them to the wolves just because thay aren't following one order.

Not following one order that could lead to eternal war for their alliance is a pretty big order not to follow.

After the last war the STA had terms we had to abide by and that meant expelling members that were not following terms because the alliance is more important than any one member. It was difficult kicking them out but sacrifices had to be made in order to ensure the alliance survived. However, if the NPO is full of members who think they are more valuable than the whole alliance and who don't want to lose their infrastructure and the NPO values that kind of selfishness, then they will suffer for it.

[HeinousOne]

Some free advice from the smartest and most handsome man around these parts for NPO.

You know, I 've spoken my peace regarding my disagreement with the terms as offered but I must just make one point to the Pacificans who are posting here. All the things you're complaining about are things your own leadership have done to other people in the past. I know that two wrongs don't make a right, but holy crap if anyone's got it coming it's NPO. Your own Emperor made similar demands on nations in peace mode from another alliance once:

Want to know what alliance that was?

The New Polar Order. Yeah. It sucks when the shoe is on the other foot, doesn't it? I am against these gigantic reparations and the pre-terms and all of that, but holy crap if anyone has it coming NPO does. You sold out your own blood for fleeting friendships that turned on you within a year. Well, you sold us out before that too but like suckers we all kept hanging on out of hope that Moo and the other incompetents running NPO would someday come to their senses or do the right thing and hand power over to someone more capable. It never happened and now you are where you are for a reason. So, remembering Polaris and the crimes you've committed against the most righteous and true ally you ever had, let me just tell you to suck it up and do what you have to do to get yourselves peace. You'll be able to brag about it in a year anyway, when you've got your sanction back and the worst of the sellouts who turned their back on you are either a smoking ruin or a fading memory.

There was a time when NPO thought long term. You need to start doing so again, and quickly. Stop wriggling and take your medicine. Also, Moo, you need to fire your entire staff except Dilber and then step down. Beg Dilber to take over. He's about the only competent one left at the top level.

Damn, Sponge scores again. I especially agree with the boldened part. I like you Moo but you allowed yourself to be maneuvered by your IO's. Atleast I hope that is the case. Either way, NPO needs some drastic change and there are some folks at your top levels that I highly doubt are capable of it and it doesnt matter if you yourself change or not, people will always associate you with the pre Karma War NPO so you should probably do whats best for NPO after this and step down to allow Mary to move up to Emperor. Besides, for the aspect of the game that you seemed to like best Moo, being an ex-emperor will be more to your liking anyways.

[Branimir]

They aren't draconian just because you say they are.

And they are not reasonable just because you say they are either.

We can do this no u all day long.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Branimir

[Ragashingo]

100% is possible if they punt members who have been loyal for several years. I would send them packing, but it's not my call and I understand feeling loyalty to members that have served for years and not wanting to throw them to the wolves just because thay aren't following one order.

1. They aren't loyal if they don't follow orders.

2. You sure are trivializing that one order that would bring the alliance peace.

It's funny, the NPO's inability to control their members is (apparently) nearly infinitely worse than GATO's was back during the GATO-1V war. Yet GATO needed a viceroy to help fix its government? Heh.

[Ragashingo]

And they are not reasonable just because you say they are either.

We can do this no u all day long.

Yes, we could. But unlike you, I'm right.

[Branimir]

Yes, we could. But unlike you, I'm right.

(OOC: Really dont like this new forum smiley, really meh)

Thanks for making me laugh, don't know if you were trying to be intentionally funny or not but it worked well.

Anyway, night all. Twas pleasure, I had fun. Dont ever change CN

Edited June 14, 2009 by Branimir

[Roadie]

I think I've already answered this in that I have, infact, led a 400 or 500 member alliance and have dealt with the complications that come with it. That being said, if they are truly loyal, active members worth sacraficing the entire alliance for as the NPO seems to be claiming they are (since they won't expel them) then surely they have no problem losing some pixels for the greater good of their own community.

2 weeks of 3v1 will not, in any fashion, make the current reps impossible to pay off. It may lengthen the time in which is required to pay them off (only 2 slots instead of 3) but in no way will it be impossible. Considering the alliances that created these terms are experts on moving reps, I find it very funny that a ruler (and NPO as a whole) who has never (to my knowledge, if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me) had to pay reps is trying to debate what is and isn't possible.

Maybe I'm wrong to give NPO the benefit of the doubt, but it's going to take a lot to convince me I am. Heres why.

If I'm in NPO leadership shoes right now, I have next to no allies at all. The couple that have stayed with me this long have taken a serious beating. Those allies know that my alliance has major taint right now and sticking by me is bad PR at best. If these alliances that have taken such beatings for me ever found out that the were taking these beatings because I wouldn't accept doable terms, they would NEVER ink up with me again. There's no way I would would continue to expose my own alliance to the beatings longer than I had to and in the process make the only few allies I have hate me for their own beatings.

No, Sir. If I'm NPO I'm trying to get myself and my allies out of this if at all possible for the two very important reasons of saving what I can of NPO and at least having a positive relationship with allies that have proven they will go to ZI for someone else.

To do otherwise would be monumentally stupid.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Roadie

[FireLordZuko]

Damn, Sponge scores again. I especially agree with the boldened part. I like you Moo but you allowed yourself to be maneuvered by your IO's. Atleast I hope that is the case. Either way, NPO needs some drastic change and there are some folks at your top levels that I highly doubt are capable of it and it doesnt matter if you yourself change or not, people will always associate you with the pre Karma War NPO so you should probably do whats best for NPO after this and step down to allow Mary to move up to Emperor. Besides, for the aspect of the game that you seemed to like best Moo, being an ex-emperor will be more to your liking anyways.

Mary as emperor?

Are you serious?

I would rather have a dead rotting skunk lead NPO than Mary. Dilber knows how to rule an alliance. Make him emperor and NPO will be back to that awesome state as it was during the Initiative-Era.

[kingzog]

Maybe I'm wrong to give NPO the benefit of the doubt, but it's going to take a lot to convince me I am. Heres why.

If I'm in NPO leadership shoes right now, I have next to no allies at all. The couple that have stayed with me this long have taken a serious beating. Those allies know that my alliance has major taint right now and sticking by me is bad PR at best. If these alliances that have taken such beatings for me ever found out that the were taking these beatings because I wouldn't accept doable terms, there's no way I would would continue to expose my own alliance to the beatings longer than I had to and in the process make the only few allies I have hate me for their own beatings.

No, Sir. If I'm NPO I'm trying to get myself and my allies out of this if at all possible for the two very important reasons of saving what I can of NPO and at least having a positive relationship with allies that have proven they will go to ZI for someone else.

To do otherwise would be monumentally stupid.

But, as has been amply illustrated, the terms are quite do-able.

Also, if Mary becomes Empress, would the last person out please turn off the lights.

Although, maybe she knows what happened to my letter....

Edited June 14, 2009 by kingzog

[Lennox]

Maybe I'm wrong to give NPO the benefit of the doubt, but it's going to take a lot to convince me I am. Heres why.

If I'm in NPO leadership shoes right now, I have next to no allies at all. The couple that have stayed with me this long have taken a serious beating. Those allies know that my alliance has major taint right now and sticking by me is bad PR at best. If these alliances that have taken such beatings for me ever found out that the were taking these beatings because I wouldn't accept doable terms, they would NEVER ink up with me again. There's no way I would would continue to expose my own alliance to the beatings longer than I had to and in the process make the only few allies I have hate me for their own beatings.

No, Sir. If I'm NPO I'm trying to get myself and my allies out of this if at all possible for the two very important reasons of saving what I can of NPO and at least having a positive relationship with allies that have proven they will go to ZI for someone else.

To do otherwise would be monumentally stupid.

This has nothing to do with paying reps. Also look what happened to Polar, and they did it just fine, with only half the nations NPO has.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Lennox

[Kindom of Goon]

I fail to see how your hate for us changes the fact that it was clearly and publicly stated in the beginning of the war how karma will not be issuing draconian surrender terms and that it will be the first step towards building a better world, and then issuing such exact terms.

Well saints or not, we were good enough for you too be in a block with us for almost a year. That is something, isnt it?

The 'hate' comment was aimed at the former part of your comment, not the surrender terms. What I will say is considering your past, the severity of these terms are up for debate.

Also I joined after so you're point about being in a block with you falls flat

Not being there at the time I can't speak about why we entered a block with you guys, but I do know why we were the first alliance to leave.

[steodonn]

And they are not reasonable just because you say they are either.

We can do this no u all day long.

As the people who are winning this war I think we get to decide what reasonable not you. Yes Karma refuses to negotiate ( well maybe I am not involved at all in that ) but you refused surrender in my eyes that were not harsh at all ( I would have put a another 100k tech onto them reps . You are losing we make the terms you can accept them or not thats what happens when you lose

Anyone who falls for this PR stunt needs to brush up on their history. NPO will do ANYTHING to get ahead

And for your reason to declare war see my sig. You had to do something before everyone cancelled on you

[Roadie]

But, as has been amply illustrated, the terms are quite do-able.

I'm not convinced they are doable. Just because the math works in this case doesn't make them doable. I really do believe that NPO can't get to that 90% number. They've already said they can do the tech and cash and have offered more in fact. But if people can't/won't follow orders, they are tellingthe truth about that 90% number.

And I honestly don't think NPO are stupid enough to stay in this war longer than they have to be.

[HeinousOne]

Mary as emperor?

Are you serious?

I would rather have a dead rotting skunk lead NPO than Mary. Dilber knows how to rule an alliance. Make him emperor and NPO will be back to that awesome state as it was during the Initiative-Era.

You give your own wishes too much credit. They already set up Mary as the next in line and very publically stated such. Dilber has been the true power long since leaving the position of Emperor so why would he bother going back to it when he can continue as he has should he desire? It's all about who lurks in the shadow directing the show. Mary is a wonderful candidate to replace Moo if you want Dilber to actually lead.

[Emperor Stranger]

As the people who are winning this war I think we get to decide what reasonable not you. Yes Karma refuses to negotiate ( well maybe I am not involved at all in that ) but you refused surrender in my eyes that were not harsh at all ( I would have put a another 100k tech onto them reps . You are losing we make the terms you can accept them or not thats what happens when you lose

Anyone who falls for this PR stunt needs to brush up on their history. NPO will do ANYTHING to get ahead

And for your reason to declare war see my sig. You had to do something before everyone cancelled on you

What is wrong with allowing all their nations help repay the reps? Seems like a reasonable request to me..

[Branimir]

(OOC: Last reply, I know if I don't do it now it will be buried in 50 pages lol would do it when I wake up otherwise)

Not being there at the time I can't speak about why we entered a block with you guys, but I do know why we were the first alliance to leave.

Well, it took you a while to leave all I am saying. I know in that long while you didn't really said you found us to be uniquely "damaging" to the community, as Bob said, but were a quite decent ally.

Of course now we are of no use to you,...

As the people who are winning this war I think we get to decide what reasonable not you.

Thats my boy. +1

Edited June 14, 2009 by Branimir

[kingzog]

I'm not convinced they are doable. Just because the math works in this case doesn't make them doable. I really do believe that NPO can't get to that 90% number. They've already said they can do the tech and cash and have offered more in fact. But if people can't/won't follow orders, they are tellingthe truth about that 90% number.

And I honestly don't think NPO are stupid enough to stay in this war longer than they have to be.

There's a mechanism, though, for addressing the "<90% dilemma." And really, I would trust the Karma alliances not to be harsh on that at all. Regardless of who wins or loses on the ground, there's always the PR battle. You know, hearts and minds and all that.

btw....TPF know anything about my letter?

[naamah]

Some free advice from the smartest and most handsome man around these parts for NPO.

You know, I 've spoken my peace regarding my disagreement with the terms as offered but I must just make one point to the Pacificans who are posting here. All the things you're complaining about are things your own leadership have done to other people in the past. I know that two wrongs don't make a right, but holy crap if anyone's got it coming it's NPO. Your own Emperor made similar demands on nations in peace mode from another alliance once:

Want to know what alliance that was?

The New Polar Order. Yeah. It sucks when the shoe is on the other foot, doesn't it? I am against these gigantic reparations and the pre-terms and all of that, but holy crap if anyone has it coming NPO does. You sold out your own blood for fleeting friendships that turned on you within a year. Well, you sold us out before that too but like suckers we all kept hanging on out of hope that Moo and the other incompetents running NPO would someday come to their senses or do the right thing and hand power over to someone more capable. It never happened and now you are where you are for a reason. So, remembering Polaris and the crimes you've committed against the most righteous and true ally you ever had, let me just tell you to suck it up and do what you have to do to get yourselves peace. You'll be able to brag about it in a year anyway, when you've got your sanction back and the worst of the sellouts who turned their back on you are either a smoking ruin or a fading memory.

There was a time when NPO thought long term. You need to start doing so again, and quickly. Stop wriggling and take your medicine. Also, Moo, you need to fire your entire staff except Dilber and then step down. Beg Dilber to take over. He's about the only competent one left at the top level.

One of the best posts I have read in here so far. In my perception NPO could have avoided this mess but the current emperor's vision has led it to ruin. Bring back Dilber or bump up Mary

[FireLordZuko]

You give your own wishes too much credit. They already set up Mary as the next in line and very publically stated such. Dilber has been the true power long since leaving the position of Emperor so why would he bother going back to it when he can continue as he has should he desire? It's all about who lurks in the shadow directing the show. Mary is a wonderful candidate to replace Moo if you want Dilber to actually lead.

Mary is only regent because she pretty much nodded to everything Trotsky said. I want to see Dilber as Emperor of NPO. Not as some Ex-Emperor

Mary really has no political experience

Dilber will lead NPO to greatness again not through corruption like Trotsky

[HeinousOne]

Mary is only regent because she pretty much nodded to everything Trotsky said. I want to see Dilber as Emperor of NPO. Not as some Ex-Emperor

Mary really has no political experience

Dilber will lead NPO to greatness again not through corruption like Trotsky

Heh, you did read my post thoroughly didn't you? Learn to train your vision to see in the shadows and you might have a little bit better understanding as to how the NPO has worked in the past.

[jerry wagner]

I am not going to comment on the size of the reps. This post is more directed to the rationale of posting your objections to your proposed peace terms on the OWF. It is obviously a PR ploy and as such displays a complete contempt towards the peace process. If you are genuinely interested in acquiring peace, you should be either interacting with or waiting to interact with those that you are in conflict with. If I were on the front against NPO, this thread would do little other than strengthen my resolve to enforce the proposed reps and not offer any leniency.

To those that choose to bash Londo, I would like to like to say: Shut It! I have know Londo for quite some time in Cyberverse from his days back in Camelot and understand that trials that he has gone through as a leader. He typically displays an excellent ability to try and mediate a situation and I am sure that the same skill was applied in this situation. If NPO is unhappy with the reps, they should focus their "displeasure" on those they are combating and attempt to convince them otherwise instead of using the spokesperson as the target. Also, to those who bring in snide comments and logs from recent conversations (read you mhawk), of course Londo will take no small amount of pleasure in observing and assisting in the wounding of the NPO, to think otherwise is foolish. That does not mean he cannot act in a mediating fashion.

o/Athens

[Lord of Destruction]

That's how my brother started smoking. True story.

By extension, if such a scheme is applied to the NPO, you just know they're going to use that max'd, Defcon 1'd military sooner or later.

Oh, and I got a letter. It's not official, but at least it's from someone in the NPO.

That picture of me....it's like staring into a mirror. Eerie.

So where's my real damn letter?

Good grief....so exactly what the hell is the problem, then? Surrender, pay the man and everyone move on!

(Hey, you know anything about my letter? Letum said something about a letter....)

Dear Zog,

You're not on a ZI/PZI/EZI/LMNOPZI list.

Signed,

LoD, Special Envoy

Mary is only regent because she pretty much nodded to everything Trotsky said. I want to see Dilber as Emperor of NPO. Not as some Ex-Emperor

Mary really has no political experience

Dilber will lead NPO to greatness again not through corruption like Trotsky

You have no idea who Mary is, do you? She led GPA [OOC]when she was 14[/OOC]. She's extremely smart, and does know what she is doing. She has political experience - more than you ever will.

That said, you shouldn't talk about NPO Leadership when you do not actually know them.

[Francesca]

I'll personally be happy, so long as Cager isn't made the next emperor of NPO.

[Azaghul]

It's hilarious to see all of NPO's allies that fought in this war, former and current, in alliances that are currently under light terms or none at all, complaining about how Karma is just as bad as NPO.