Haflinger Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 If NPO nations are not following orders any longer then perhaps the NPO has bigger problems than this war. They're losing the war to RL Silly summer weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilvioArjunza Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 While repealing the Moldavi Doctrine and dismantling their EZI/PZI/ZI list makes sense, I thought the purpose of Karma was precisely that: function as Karma. They have received their lesson. I think the fact that probably half the nations here, if not more, rose up against them should be a rather strong message about what went wrong. I am by no means a Defender of NPO, but this is unreasonable. For those whom represent Karma, and have partaken in the decision as to the reparations of NPO, please consider yourself down one person who used to respect you for what you were doing. This is disturbing. You're building yourselves into the hegemony to replace NPO. Congratulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muffasamini Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 NPO started this war, and in a most dishonorable way. They thought they would kick booty and do what they do and it backfired. FAIL for them. Nope, proved wrong, try again. There were misconceptions on both sides. They have been offered peace, albeit with stringent terms. They balked, offering more money if their big nations could escape. Why do you think that is? So they could do all they could to be nice losers and simply pay the reps? NO. They did it because anyone who takes the time to even look at the numbers knows that they can pay that back and be a threatening powerhouse with grudges to settle in months. Even with the reps to be paid, that is possible due to the number of nations they have. And if they were given their counteroffer they would have several extremely large nations capable of fueling their turbo-comeback. You cant honestly think that 300k and 8 billion in reps can be accomplished with a "turbo comeback" more than half our alliance has been knocked to below 2,000 infra. The numbers show nothing but the fact that it would take more than 8 months to pay them off. But we were willing to do that. If we had come into this thread just saying that we didnt accept terms because there were harsh or "stringent" we would have been laughed off CN. Its simply impossible to get 90% nations into war mode quick enough or with enough consistency so that we can pay the terms at all. Guess what? I for one (and I know I am not alone) am not interested in their comeback. I am interested in them paying dearly for dragging most of Bob into a war that primarily hinges on them being bullies, unable to deal honorably with others, and holding legendary grudges. Their recidivism in terms of acting beyond the moral pale on Planet Bob has earned them harsh but just punishment. They can accept the deal and move forward past this episode or they can allow their elite to sit in ivory towers while the rest of their nations, good nations that have fought honorably in my experience, take the fall for them. How many others will experience ZI or eat nukes so they can save their big boys? And why is it appropriate for them to do it when no one else in this war has? I refuse to be moved by their argument that somehow it is just for their big nations to stay clean and safe when I have large nations in my alliance that have lost a great deal of their NS and Infra since they were dragged into war by the NPO. As a small nation that was apparently "dragged into this war by vicious NPO despots in ivory towers who dont care about me," Your wrong. If we had let those big nations into peace mode, we'd have 730 tiny destroyed nations attempting to pay 7 billion in reps. After all the "your a vindictive alliance" filth, dont say that you would have just "let us off" if the banks had gone into war. Do not tell me the motivations of my own alliance. I say let them be honorable. Let them come face us. Let them experience the repercussions of what they have done and the horrors of war. It is what we have endured to bring justice to their doorstep and we expect no less than that they take a slice of what we have all endured before we move forward. That is certainly fair. Harsh. YES. But fair. Yeah, I think we've been enduring that righteous cleansing for a month now, and are willing to keep paying it out to you in money for the next several months. The side clauses of the terms just need to be actually possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scythegfx Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 There, fixed that for you.edit... needed... Way to go, you ruined my favorite movie speech by filling it in with falsehoods and lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurion Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Seriously? That's the comparison you're making? Entirely too short, and I guess the better comparison would be eating babies amirite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twizzler Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Yours is funnier, but mine has more Cortath. Maybe we should collaborate Summary part 2: Coming soon to a Decree thread near you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragashingo Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 They're losing the war to RL Silly summer weather. Hehe. Right. If only this war had happened in another season then the NPO nations would be following orders and they would be winning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of the Port Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Yeah, I need to update that thing sorry. Ill see what I can do this coming week. Also, lol. That red team gag was hilarious. Bilrow banned Orkules from #NSA for that !@#$. So, eh, could I get a tl;dr version of it? The reason of your hate, that is... Also, 100 pages in 24 hours... I would hate to be a moderator right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cripple Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 You don't understand. The current terms are unfulfillable. Reparations cannot be paid; conditions cannot be met. Refer to the links in my signature for why this is so.Our counter proposal should not be misconstrued as an effort to somehow maintain ourselves for a brutally efficient comeback. Rather, our proposal is a generous alternative to demands which are logistically and economically unreasonable. We understand very well that we have lost this war, and we are trying our best to come to a solution agreeable to all parties. Remember, we offered to pay substantially *more* than originally requested. There's been a lot of hot rhetoric from both sides as to how this or that is fair or not fair, but the truth of the matter is that the terms as they are are impossible to carry through with. Unless you advocate a complete dissolution of the New Pacific Order, you cannot accept the terms as they are. To reiterate this again: if we were to accept the terms as we are now, there would undoubtedly be righteous outrage as people find that we cannot carry through with our side of the bargain. This is good debate. I can see your point, that some of the terms may be mutually exclusive. I can tell you that this exact point is currently being debated by Karma alliances. Some people feel that it is possible, but if it is, then certainly an 'action plan' must be drawn up stating exactly how it is possible - I agree, it's not good enough to say 'just deal with it'. o7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Xander the Only Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 While repealing the Moldavi Doctrine and dismantling their EZI/PZI/ZI list makes sense, I thought the purpose of Karma was precisely that: function as Karma. They have received their lesson. I think the fact that probably half the nations here, if not more, rose up against them should be a rather strong message about what went wrong. I am by no means a Defender of NPO, but this is unreasonable. For those whom represent Karma, and have partaken in the decision as to the reparations of NPO, please consider yourself down one person who used to respect you for what you were doing. This is disturbing. You're building yourselves into the hegemony to replace NPO. Congratulations. I'm sure the pain felt from the loss of your respect will not be forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millionario Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 They disbanded because the NPO IO's ignored them when they requested lists of nations to do deals with. We had to hound and hound and hound NPO to get lists for our reps. And yet if people don't pay, they get blamed for the NPO banks incompetence.TDSM8 tried for 3 months. Let me bold that so it sets in 3 MONTHS! And yet they were not given nations to do the deals with. They stayed in limbo waiting to pay these reps and basically the NPO would allow them to. Don't think so. I provided TDSM8 with as many targets as they could afford a go, (12/13 usually, if my memory is correct). It was pretty hard to catch them on IRC, but I think we got by well enough via PM. If you're going to make accusations at least back them up, because I can certainly back up what I say. There were some internal problems with MK's reps/maybe Athens, I can't remember but think it was just MK. But they certainly didn't prolong them for as long as some of you claim, a week if even and they were sorted out in the end. I did have some logs, but sadly I wiped my computer. Shame that. This isn't all of them, but I've provided screen shots of my inbox and sent box with all of them there I believe. Other PMs blanked out, naturally. Apologies that you're all going to have to do your own investigative work, but the CN forum, for me at least doesn't seem to provide names on who I sent it to. But you can match up the exact date/times from the screens i've provided of my inbox/sent box, again, my apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicknight Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) Seriously? That's the comparison you're making? I recall you having no problem making those kinds of comparisons 3 years ago. What was it you commonly called the Coaluetion in those days, again? Edited June 13, 2009 by mythicknight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Flinders Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Wow, 102 pages (103 yet?) before I even see the thread. Impressive indeed. The only thing I really take away from the OP is the rather comedic way Moo says "Karma". These kind of terms are the exact definition of karma and had they been more lenient, they would not have been acting in a karmic fashion. You have imposed unbelievable terms on those in the past. Why you are shocked with a Karma Coaltiion gives you the same treatment speaks more to your naivety than anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic2 Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) Could someone please summarize the last 99 pages for me? NPO: We'll pay reps, but we disagree with your terms saying that we need 90% of our nations in war mode so that they can get smacked. This makes it impossible for us to comply so we'll just keep fighting unless you agree with our counter proposal. Karma: Counter proposal denied. we think our terms are fair. NPO: The terms are too harsh. Karma: NO U! NPO: NO U! The rest of the community: Debating whether reps are too harsh or fair, arguing over past wars and whether terms in those were fair or not, and proclaiming the horrors of the huge reps or the monstrosity of the NPO depending on which side they're taking. Oh, and there was some guy proclaiming that he would never get laid a few pages back. That's pretty much a summary of this thread. Edited June 13, 2009 by Cynic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I'm sure the pain felt from the loss of your respect will not be forgotten. I used to like you KX. Stop trying to turn into the new Josef Thorne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heracles the Great Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Depends, some people see the death penalty as murder. [ooc]Thank God for Texas [/ooc] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nada2486 Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 While repealing the Moldavi Doctrine and dismantling their EZI/PZI/ZI list makes sense, I thought the purpose of Karma was precisely that: function as Karma. They have received their lesson. I think the fact that probably half the nations here, if not more, rose up against them should be a rather strong message about what went wrong. I am by no means a Defender of NPO, but this is unreasonable. For those whom represent Karma, and have partaken in the decision as to the reparations of NPO, please consider yourself down one person who used to respect you for what you were doing. This is disturbing. You're building yourselves into the hegemony to replace NPO. Congratulations. Karma was when the NPO lost its tops spot in CN, then the beating for the past month. Karma is over but not for the Karma alliance, they want to go further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stumpy Jung Il Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 You guys suck at making summaries. Im laying one down when I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cripple Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Apologies. It feels wrong to keep on posting this, but at the moment much of this topic is largely superfluous. Let's have reasoned debate. To re-iterate: I will admit that I have some limited sympathy with the announcement. However, I feel that it is very important that everyone understands clearly that the precedent that the most contraversial term follows was set by Pacifica; if you recall, it is they who in the past have specified that any nation in peace mode prior to the conclusion of war would be attacked for a set period, equivalent to the number of days of war which they avoided, starting from the moment at which the rest of the alliance was given peace. The NPO have had the majority of their high strength nations in peace mode for more than fourteen days, so this is not going beyond anything which has been done before. Let us be clear; the fact that 'they did it first' is not a moral justification. However, there is no room here for Pacifica to claim that these terms are harsher than anything previously issued. The reparations are larger than any previous single sum, but this war has been considerably bigger than any that has gone before - increased reparations go hand-in-hand with that. Let us also not forget that many in Karma see these reparations as a repayment for all the damage that Pacfica has done over the course of the last few years, not just for this war. Indeed, some of the terms that Pacifica has issued in the past upon conclusion of its wars have arguably been worse; namely, those leading directly to the disbandment of an enemy alliance. Make no mistake, Karma as a coalition has the power to enforce a ZI order - but the line is drawn; that is beyond the pale. The reason for that is that within the ranks of Karma, there is a strong feeling that we must not be hypocrites in victory. The line between justice and excess is one that must be pinned down firmly. There are good reasons to be optimistic. The removal of the Moldavi Doctrine is an excellent first step on the path to reconcilliation. That is a path that I want us to follow. Yes, I believe that the cycle of revenge can be broken; it can end right now! The difficulty is that there is a strong distrust of Pacifica. There will not be a repeat of GW I. That is why Karma wants these terms - effectively, we want Pacifica to accept them, and when the terms expire, we'll call it quits. But the feeling is that before forgiveness, there must be penance. I've gone on for far too long already: to conclude let us drop the partisan behaviour, and talk frankly about the terms. Both sides. Cripple (Senator, Greenland Republic) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gn0xious Jr Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) Why you are shocked with a Karma Coaltiion gives you the same treatment speaks more to your naivety than anything else. edit: sarcasm below: why? because it sucks can you even begin to imagine the stress of having to come up with harsh reps and adhere to surrender terms for 'x' number of days? i mean if it takes 3-6 months to get reps paid and surrender terms fulfilled, that's like 3-6 months of crappy no fun game play. i mean seriously, come on, think of the players. this would totally piss people off. everything they've worked for on their nation in the past couple of years dropped to near ZI, having to rebuild, and rethink your gameplay and how you react with others. it just doesn't seem like the most lenient course of action. I for one am shocked that this sort of punishment is being taken on Planet Bob. and to NPO? what has NPO ever done to deserve this? this is one of the most well liked, classy, respectable..... okay seriously, i couldn't keep that up any longer. :V Edited June 13, 2009 by Gn0xious Jr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gn0xious Jr Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 You guys suck at making summaries. Im laying one down when I can. finally, i've been waiting like 100+ pages for the Stumpy summary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TypoNinja Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I'm not sure. They've already stated that they have several nation that have not complied with the multiple order they've recieved already to cycle out of PM. The amount of nations that haven't cycled out on orders already issued is why they can't hit 90%. And that's even if Karma allows for every ghost NPO says is a ghost.There's a deal to be made here and Karma can have the deal wrapped up today, but not with that 90% stipulation. I don't know how it works in your alliance but where I'm from nations who disobey direct orders while at war get the boot (and possibly a trip to ZI after the dust has settled.) Why have these members not been expelled? People disobeying orders is not an excuse, people being inactive is not an excuse, they were active enough to get the orders to go into peace mode after all. Could it be this is simply a transparent attempt to get some banks out of the line of fire while trying to score some cheap PR points? I think it just might be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krack Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 seriously though 90 % of an alliance out of peace mode is ridiculous even coming from someone who has disliked NPO, if people are inflexible nothing will be solved... Every other alliance on Planet Bob seems capable of making it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shahenshah Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) Even in Victory, Karma "follows" NPO Edited June 13, 2009 by shahenshah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragashingo Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Karma was when the NPO lost its tops spot in CN, then the beating for the past month. Karma is over but not for the Karma alliance, they want to go further. Haha, you are so wrong. At the very least the NPO needs either a Viceory, or eternal war, or massive reps. We went with option three, the best and most humane of the three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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