Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Teriethien]

Who am I provoking?

Are you serious?

Am I trolling Polar members calling them drones, am I dispensing threats towards Polaris?

No, I don't think so.

If you were not implying that Polar doesn't think the current war is enough and is still waiting for you, then I apologise for jumping to conclusions. On the other hand, that's pretty much the exact words you wrote.

[kingzog]

Pacifica did not "arrange a hit" on Polar. They may have acted stupidly, but they certainly did not lead the attempts to crush Polar.

Both our alliances share the blame of what has happened, both then and now.

Your use of the Polar issue for cheap PR points sickens me, and always has.

And for the record, mine is still bleeding, while Grub's seems to have scabbed over nicely.

I can provide each of you with ample evidence, as can others.

I do love your outrage, Mr. Dahl. I feed on it. You should post more and more and more about how outraged you are, until you have single-handedly alienated the few people outside the NPO who actually give a damn about what happens to your alliance.

(btw....Grub was one of those people. Good job with him.)

I wasn't even AROUND when Polaris was being rolled, I can't speak of the past beyond what I personally was there for.

Then, when the topic comes up, remain silent. You look like a fool.

Edited June 14, 2009 by kingzog

[Azaghul]

Don't you get it?

We. Won't. Have. 175. Nations. Capable. Of. Paying this. Because. Each. Nation. Will. Be. Losing. A. Motherload. In. War.

You want some other rough math? 1 nuke = 80 tech. 14 nukes = 1120. Tech lost from 6 ground attacks = 16. From 6 CM's = 9.6. Total amount of tech lost from two weeks of war: 150,000. (the amount actually adds up to 250,000, but we are allowing some regression in losses as people fall down the ranks)

Total amount of tech leftover: 250,000

Total ratio of nations amongst the 181 with depleted warchest after two months: 55% (about 100 ppl)

Ratio of those with a warchest left amongst the 181 who have not been following orders regarding peace mode, and can thus not be trusted: 35-40% (about 32 ppl)

Number of people with a warchest left, and satisfying conditions to pay reps: about 50

50 people, using 5 slots a cyle, three cycles a month, with a 70% efficiency (face it, that is a logical rate) would be able to barely cover the minimum payment (they would pay out 26k from the minimum 25k).

(50x250x3x0.7 = 26,250)

And do you know how small of a margin of safety 1,250 tech is?

If only two of those people leave the game or quit or something, we'd fall below the minimum rate.

If our efficiency fell down just 5%, we'd fall below the minimum rate.

If the war was a few days longer than 2 weeks, because of delays in meeting the standard requirement, we'd fall below the minimum rate.

All three scenarios are likely. The last is very likely. The probability of us not being able to meet the minimum payment is very high. But we're just supposed to trust that they'll "scale it down" rite?

And even in the ideal case scenario where everything went off without a hitch (and perfect-world scenarios are always unlikely), this would take far more than the "three months" people are yapping on and on about. It would take 12 months. Seriously, MK moved about 100k tech in three months with the same (in fact a bit more) number of nations liable for paying, and you expect us to move three times more in the same period?

(And before you come in with the "You haz warchests" defence, look at the actual numbers, and look at the parts where I point out the people that do not "haz a warchest". Before you come in with the "your ppl can still aid without warchests" defence, look at the part where I point out that we have to send out more tech than we have. Before you come in with the "You have warchests, so you can purchase the difference" defence, look up two sentences.)

And even in this ideal world we would have no rebuilding aid for a year. But yes, I know they aim to keep us down forever. Don't act surprised if we prefer war to being kept down forever. And don't act surprised if we do not trust the people who say that they want us to "never rebuild" and who have stated "the reps aren't changing" to "scale it down" when in maybe 18 days after surrender terms are signed, we've been nuked to the point of no longer being able to pay.

Edit: This does not even take into account the 7bn in money. You will find that when we have 557 nations under 1000 infra that is quite a bit of trouble too.

The fatal flaw in your reasoning is that those 50 nations can split between sending money reps and sending aid to the hundred or so other guys so they can get out of bill-lock, rebuild to a banking condition themselves, and/or send tech reps. The number of banking nations can grow exponentially because you have literally scores of nations with almost full economic wonders and hundreds with full economic improvements and so they need only maybe 30 mill aid to rebuild to a banking condition quickly.

I'd also point out that most of those MK nations were only putting out 3 slots of tech each.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Azaghul

[Angrator]

You would do well to look into those inconvenient histories, you will find much that is equally inconvenient for your arguments.

Go ahead. Enlighten me.

[Galen Arsenius]

I wasn't even AROUND when Polaris was being rolled, I can't speak of the past beyond what I personally was there for.

Then how can you sit here preaching your cause; how your wounds have not healed, while ours lay scabbed in all of this unjustifiable hate that you claim we have.

[KinKiac]

Ok so I havent yet finished the thread, thats going to take a while. But there is some posts Id like to respond to from the first few pages.

Wow, long time no hear.

Well glad Moldavi doctrine is gone, as for the war seems like u guys are losing the military battle but if Karma keeps at it u guys might happen to win the CN community over.

Not a chance. NPO propaganda is not that good. Most of the community IS Karma.

You can't both beat on a nation and then expect it to spend almost a year as your tech farm.

This was ridiculous.

no not quite. How long would it take 300 nations at tech selling level to pay 1000 tech each? At 5 slots per nation that equals 250 tech each, every 10 days, so in 40 days, 300 nations could pay back the entire 300,000 tech. Thats just over a month, not a year. Even if only half that qualify it still only takes 2 months tops. Add in the monetary reps and your looking at maybe 6 months tops. Far cry from a year. Far cry from 2 years of perpetual war too.

Hey Moo, remember when you asked TDSM8 to pay more reps than we had? Remember when you changing the terms and holding us demilitarized for 6 months killed our alliance? Remember when you asked Athens for 6/7 of their tech? Remember when you held GATO in a viceroy for a year? Remember when you perma warred FAN? Remember all the people you forced out of this game? Remember all the homes you destroyed? Shut the $%&@ up. You are playing a pity boat when you deserve none. Im so sick of you guys trying to act like you deserve any better than this.

THIS ^^^^^^

Congrats Karma. So alliances such as Valhalla and OG get off scotch free while the likes of NPO and TPF are given harsh terms to the point of disbandment.

You know how we said that Karma was just as bad as the Hegemony? Well, Karma's even worse than the Hegemony. You've thrown away your principles and why you fight. Of course the likes of Londo and Tygaland will try and make up for this saying it's not so bad and how the NPO/TPF/Echelon/Avalon deserves what's happening to them. I think now would be a good time for those individuals to take a look in the mirror and see what they've become, and to question why they even fought to begin with.

What goes around comes around, you best watch yourselves.

The bolded part. Thanks AUT for reminding us WHY Karma is asking for such high reps, so guys like you and NPO dont jump us in 6 months.

Are you really saying it is intelligent to let your secrets be spied away and do nothing about it?

No but you are lying when you say you are fighting this war because an alliance "sought" military intelligence on you. the logs show that OV did not "seek" the info, it was offered to them. There is a very big difference there. Then there is the fact that you used spied info to find out that you had been spied on. Double standard much?

300,000 tech and 8,000,000,000 in monetary aid is a lot. I don't understand the reasoning behind refusing that.

The reasoning is simple. NPO's largest nations(top 50) could have upwards of 2 billion each, some maybe more. Not to mention the tech that they have extorted from others. Overall it is much more than 300,000 that they have taken from others. The fact is, NPO will not be dictating the terms. Many would probably like to see higher reps or even disbandment, change of color etc. These terms are quite reasonable and many would like to keep stomping NPO. If NPO wants this to end, they either take it or leave it.

But you see, we never said it was wrong, hence me putting "crimes" in caps. Karma, on the other hand, did.

Karma can get off its platform and stop preaching; they have finally shown their true hypocrisy.

When someone rapes my sister and then I beat their face into a pulp, literally, that is not hypocrisy, thats payback. Karma does not have a "history" of doing this to "many" alliances do they? NPO does. There's the difference. Hypocrisy my @$$.

The thing is that you may find some of the alliances in Karma have done some of the atrocities that NPO has, but most are guilty of only one. NPO is guilty of many, big big difference.

In the end NPO has a long list of so called crimes they have committed. Most of Bob disagrees with them. Some are guilty of doing the same things at times, but no other alliance is guilty of anywhere near the entire list of things NPO is. Before this war, NPO showed no signs of changing. No signs that they would let Vox or FAN go. The only option was for them to be removed. At this point the war and the terms are about making sure NPO doesnt come back in 6 months to destroy those that opposed them and people like AUT just strengthen that theory.

NPO will come back to haunt all of us if the terms are not this harsh. They need to be harsh enough that they can not rebuild in a few months. These terms that were offered ensure that. They also give Karma time to rebuild ahead of NPO, so that when NPO is rebuilt, Karma has a head start. They are doable, but not easily. I hope you NPO guys didnt think you were going to get terms that easy to pay off. That would just be naive.

[kriegsdrachen]

The terms are harsh, but they are nothing more than I would expect, as I don't believe Karma wants peace yet. I'm guessing that if these terms were the monetary reps without the 14 day bank bashing, we would take them.

Have we issued harsh reps in the past? Probably. Have we oppressed alliances in the past? Maybe. The thing that gets me is, we weren't EVER doing it alone. We've always had allies helping us, and some of them happen to be in Karma now. How do you explain the fact that while we may have done some oppressive or harsh things in the past, that the people condemning us for these crimes were people helping us execute them? Stop acting so high and mighty, very few of you (or your alliances) have clean pasts.

[bbrownso]

I'm pretty sure NPO was one of the few things protecting NpO right before they got stomped. ES pissed a lot of people off over the years and NpO got the punishment because ES set the precedent that the alliance can be punished for the actions of their leader(s). Stop blaming Pacifica. They weren't the one railing for war.

[hizzy]

Both our alliances share the blame of what has happened, both then and now.

Your use of the Polar issue for cheap PR points sickens me, and always has.

And for the record, mine is still bleeding, while Grub's seems to have scabbed over nicely.

Let me play this tiny violin for you.

I wasn't even AROUND when Polaris was being rolled, I can't speak of the past beyond what I personally was there for.

So you were only here to experience Polaris and NPO at what can only be described as their most distant relationship but you claim you're brothers?

NPO has not had any family for the past year.

[AnCapistan]

Not to get off topic but is 126 pages a record for any alliance announcement?

[Branimir]

If you were not implying that Polar doesn't think the current war is enough and is still waiting for you, then I apologise for jumping to conclusions. On the other hand, that's pretty much the exact words you wrote.

I was asking that as it could have been interpreted like that from what grub said.

It is a valid question.

Other then asking that valid question, I did not called any member of Polaris a drone, or in any way shape or form stated any kind of threat towards them. Nor do I even consider they have anything to do with this thread, but hey we all know how this works.

[Sylar]

Not to get off topic but is 126 pages a record for any alliance announcement?

at least record time.

[Sal Paradise]

I wasn't even AROUND when Polaris was being rolled, I can't speak of the past beyond what I personally was there for.

And yet you speak of Polaris as your brothers, despite having never existed during a time when that was true. And apparently argued for something you were wholly ignorant about.

And you blame others for making your look the fool?

Edited June 14, 2009 by Sal Paradise

[TypoNinja]

Pacifica did not "arrange a hit" on Polar. They may have acted stupidly, but they certainly did not lead the attempts to crush Polar.

Did you miss the whole Vox thing? Doit's log dumps? Its spelled out pretty clearly.

[kingzog]

Then how can you sit here preaching your cause; how your wounds have not healed, while ours lay scabbed in all of this unjustifiable hate that you claim we have.

It's simple, really. As I've noted before, NPO members are quite possibly the most ignorant people in the Cyberverse with respect to what is happening outside their own alliance. Within the alliance, most are content to swallow the party line, since questioning it openly tends to lead to abuse from the leadership.

(Also....Pika? Wow....very long time no typo, man.)

[Ogaden]

I can provide each of you with ample evidence, as can others.

I do love your outrage, Mr. Dahl. I feed on it. You should post more and more and more about how outraged you are, until you have single-handedly alienated the few people outside the NPO who actually give a damn about what happens to your alliance.

(btw....Grub was one of those people. Good job with him.)

If questioning how genuine Grub's love for us is in the same thread where he states he is perfectly fine with us being completely and utterly destroyed as an alliance, and wouldn't mind all that much if we vanished off the face of the earth is 'alienating our friends', I suppose we'll somehow survive without his benevolent intervention.

[kingzog]

I'm pretty sure NPO was one of the few things protecting NpO right before they got stomped. ES pissed a lot of people off over the years and NpO got the punishment because ES set the precedent that the alliance can be punished for the actions of their leader(s). Stop blaming Pacifica. They weren't the one railing for war.

Good God....do you want the evidence, too?

Just PM me fer chrissakes. I don't have the 21-volume set, but I have a very nice precis.

[Doitzel]

I'm pretty sure NPO was one of the few things protecting NpO right before they got stomped. ES pissed a lot of people off over the years and NpO got the punishment because ES set the precedent that the alliance can be punished for the actions of their leader(s). Stop blaming Pacifica. They weren't the one railing for war.

Hello. You're wrong.

[Angrator]

If questioning how genuine Grub's love for us is in the same thread where he states he is perfectly fine with us being completely and utterly destroyed as an alliance, and wouldn't mind all that much if we vanished off the face of the earth is 'alienating our friends', I suppose we'll somehow survive without his benevolent intervention.

Actually that's pretty mild to what most people want to do to the NPO.

[Kristospherein]

Did you miss the whole Vox thing? Doit's log dumps? Its spelled out pretty clearly.

Oh please, you can't believe anything coming out of Doitzel's mouth.

[BarbulaM1]

The terms are harsh, but they are nothing more than I would expect, as I don't believe Karma wants peace yet. I'm guessing that if these terms were the monetary reps without the 14 day bank bashing, we would take them.

Have we issued harsh reps in the past? Probably. Have we oppressed alliances in the past? Maybe. The thing that gets me is, we weren't EVER doing it alone. We've always had allies helping us, and some of them happen to be in Karma now. How do you explain the fact that while we may have done some oppressive or harsh things in the past, that the people condemning us for these crimes were people helping us execute them? Stop acting so high and mighty, very few of you (or your alliances) have clean pasts.

Alliances love to be followers, it shows in NPO's wars and Karma's, simply the catalyst personalities of Karma tended to be more "moral" in their history and intent. The rest just followed in predictable fashion. However NPO did it and punished thoes that didn't follow with their set basis, not being in with NPO meant you were on a death list even without a reason. At least Karma had a long standing CB, though abstract.

Edited June 14, 2009 by BarbulaM1

[Ogaden]

And yet you speak of Polaris as your brothers, despite having never existed during a time when that was true. And apparently argued for something you were wholly ignorant about.

And you blame others for making your look the fool?

Twas indeed out of ignorance. I am much better educated now thanks to the lessons Grub has been giving me.

[Angrator]

Oh please, you can't believe anything coming out of Doitzel's mouth.

Yeah. All those facts and evidence is just so terribly inconvenient isn't it?

[Kristospherein]

Actually that's pretty mild to what most people want to do to the NPO.

And how exactly is that pretty mild compared to what most people want to do to us? What more can you do to us than destroy our alliance and make us no longer exist?

[kingzog]

If questioning how genuine Grub's love for us is in the same thread where he states he is perfectly fine with us being completely and utterly destroyed as an alliance, and wouldn't mind all that much if we vanished off the face of the earth is 'alienating our friends', I suppose we'll somehow survive without his benevolent intervention.

Your reading skills fail you, fool.

I didn't say anything about alienating your friends at all. You have precious few of those left, so there's no point counting them.

I spoke of those who gave a damn about whether you continue to exist. Period. I happen to be one of those people.