Biggest alliance mess up of all time?

[Totila]

I think this classic quote expresses my sentiments on NPO's predicament quite well,

"Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.""

Just substitute admin for God and pixels for blood and switch a few dates and there you have it. I don't really despise NPO nor do I want to see them cease to exist as an alliance, but what they have done must be repaid

"Repaid"? None of the alliances fighting NPO has skyrocketed in strength. What else "payment" are they getting apart from an opportunity to cheer the downfall of NPO? The focus of an alliance's foreign policy should be its own welfare (since that is what alliances are created for- mutual protection and freindship), not seeking revenge against some other alliance, atleast definitely not when the revenge causes more loss to the alliance than profit.

[Matthew Conrad]

"Repaid"? None of the alliances fighting NPO has skyrocketed in strength. What else "payment" are they getting apart from an opportunity to cheer the downfall of NPO? The focus of an alliance's foreign policy should be its own welfare (since that is what alliances are created for- mutual protection and freindship), not seeking revenge against some other alliance, atleast definitely not when the revenge causes more loss to the alliance than profit.

I think you're missing the target of the "payment" he was referring to...

NPO is the one being "paid" not the alliances attacking them. If those alliances were looking for profit in the form of NS they would've never gone to war.

[enderland]

NPO's case was different since they were the agressors. But from what little I know, I think they should have been given lenient peace terms and let off after that mass cancellation. Nearly every alliance in CN has allies and not even the top alliance could do anything to any of them without friends. All that a diplomatically isolated NPO could've done is lie low and try to gain some new friends. CnG has shown that one can do it even after near total destruction. That they were absolutely beaten could only have helped them gain friends, since they were seen as *victims*

NPO were never seen as victims, just ask all those who canceled on them, if they saw them as "victims" do you really think they would have canceled in the first place?

What you say in bold is exactly the reason why what you say in italics should not have happened.

[Totila]

I think you're missing the target of the "payment" he was referring to...

NPO is the one being "paid" not the alliances attacking them. If those alliances were looking for profit in the form of NS they would've never gone to war.

Oh, by "paid" he meant a "good bashing"? Well as I said, I believe the ultimate objective of an alliance must be its protection and growth, not seeking revenge/justice etc.. when they really don't give you anything. I am looking at it from Karma's point of view, not as God or whoever is supposed to be the maintainer of Universal laws of Karma etc.. CN is a game of pixels and any political move should ultimately help you increase or maintain them.

About the bolded part: You go to war against a powerful alliance like NPO only if they are a threat, not for "fun" or tech ( NPO are dishing out a lot more damage than they are taking). My point was that a diplomatically isolated NPO was no longer a threat.

[Totila]

NPO were never seen as victims, just ask all those who canceled on them, if they saw them as "victims" do you really think they would have canceled in the first place?

What you say in bold is exactly the reason why what you say in italics should not have happened.

No, the NPO were not seen as victims nor will they ever be. What I am saying was that hitting a politically isolated alliance is useless, in that it just makes a small threat a bit more smaller, at the risk of them being seen as victims and also unnecessarily losing some pixels. Why the threat they pose to you is reduced only by a little is because they can bounce back with new friends, even if they are militarily destroyed as CnG has shown( I brought them up just to illustrate my point). By warring you have reduced a small threat to something even smaller, but the war was pointless since they were a small threat in the first place. The gain is really not worth the investment.

What you say in bold is exactly the reason why what you say in italics should not have happened.

I can not argue with this. I think you want to send a message that an agressor will not be let off easily, or you can argue that NPO's recklessness convinced you that they are threat to everyone not allied to them( in other words, a mindless rogue alliance- which is definitely not true. They must have plenty of intelligent people. They couldn't have been a the top of the heap if they were all fools)Whether your arguement is valid is a subjective question, and I don't know enough of NPO to comment on that. But I find my arguements with regards to war on Polar convincing enough.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Totila

[Matthew Conrad]

Oh, by "paid" he meant a "good bashing"? Well as I said, I believe the ultimate objective of an alliance must be its protection and growth, not seeking revenge/justice etc.. when they really don't give you anything. I am looking at it from Karma's point of view, not as God or whoever is supposed to be the maintainer of Universal laws of Karma etc.. CN is a game of pixels and any political move should ultimately help you increase or maintain them.

About the bolded part: You go to war against a powerful alliance like NPO only if they are a threat, not for "fun" or tech ( NPO are dishing out a lot more damage than they are taking). My point was that a diplomatically isolated NPO was no longer a threat.

I'm sorry but alliances don't have to subject their purpose to your will. If an alliance feels it needs revenge then that's what it wants. Why should you care if an alliance wants to grow or not? You're getting near to telling other people how to play to game (within the rules of course). Unless you want to pay for their bandwidth, you have no ground to stand on.

First, please show me the statistic wherein NPO is dishing out more damage than they're taking. If you look at the Sanctions race over the course of the war, NPO has lost 20x the combined amount their opponents have lost. Anyways, I really don't know why you feel like people don't fight big alliances for fun. This is a game and you play it for fun. If just building infra all day is your idea of fun then more power to ya.

[Totila]

I'm sorry but alliances don't have to subject their purpose to your will. If an alliance feels it needs revenge then that's what it wants. Why should you care if an alliance wants to grow or not? You're getting near to telling other people how to play to game (within the rules of course). Unless you want to pay for their bandwidth, you have no ground to stand on.

I am not telling any alliance what to do. Just telling what I myself would've done if I were an alliance leader.Not everyone needs to agree with me. But you are mistaken if you think most alliances don't look out for their self-interests first.

First, please show me the statistic wherein NPO is dishing out more damage than they're taking. If you look at the Sanctions race over the course of the war, NPO has lost 20x the combined amount their opponents have lost. Anyways, I really don't know why you feel like people don't fight big alliances for fun. This is a game and you play it for fun. If just building infra all day is your idea of fun then more power to ya.

I don't have the statistics. I know that ragnarok occupied a higher rank than NPO in biggest loser in last 7 days rankings that you get in CN a few days ago.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Totila

[Matthew Conrad]

I am not telling any alliance what to do. Just telling what I myself would've done if I were an alliance leader.Not everyone needs to agree with me. But you are mistaken if you think most alliances look out for their self-interests first.

I don't have the statistics. I know that ragnarok occupied a higher rank than NPO in biggest loser in last 7 days rankings that you get in CN a few days ago.

When did I say most alliances look out for their self interests first? You're the one who said alliances should focus on growth and protection. Those are self interests.

"I believe the ultimate objective of an alliance must be its protection and growth." You just told me I'm mistaken for something I didn't say and that you did say. To say the least, I'm quite confused as to what your argument is now.

As for your second statement, I don't really know what "biggest loser in the last 7 days rankings that you can get in CN a few days ago means". I would appreciate it if you would clarify so that I can respond accordingly.

[Totila]

When did I say most alliances look out for their self interests first? You're the one who said alliances should focus on growth and protection. Those are self interests.

"I believe the ultimate objective of an alliance must be its protection and growth." You just told me I'm mistaken for something I didn't say and that you did say. To say the least, I'm quite confused as to what your argument is now.

Typo. Sorry.

But you are mistaken if you think most alliances don't look out for their self-interests first.

Fixed.

As for your second statement, I don't really know what "biggest loser in the last 7 days rankings that you can get in CN a few days ago means". I would appreciate it if you would clarify so that I can respond accordingly

http://www.cybernations.net/stats_awards.asp Last row, last column.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Totila

[Totila]

Anyways, I really don't know why you feel like people don't fight big alliances for fun. This is a game and you play it for fun. If just building infra all day is your idea of fun then more power to ya.

OOC, yes the entire game is fun. I meant fighting NPO is not like techraids- not to be taken lightly. I know many ppl don't take techraiding lightly either, but you got my point, right?

[Geopet]

No, the NPO were not seen as victims nor will they ever be. What I am saying was that hitting a politically isolated alliance is useless, in that it just makes a small threat a bit more smaller, at the risk of them being seen as victims and also unnecessarily losing some pixels. Why the threat they pose to you is reduced only by a little is because they can bounce back with new friends, even if they are militarily destroyed as CnG has shown( I brought them up just to illustrate my point). By warring you have reduced a small threat to something even smaller, but the war was pointless since they were a small threat in the first place. The gain is really not worth the investment.

You'd do better arguing that all wars are wrong, which is where you are headed logically here. Or alternatively, by your logic, that by attacking the NPO, the Karmic forces are making the NPO even stronger.

It also is interesting to see you argue that the NPO was politically isolated to the point of not being a threat to anyone. I don't see them fighting alone and I would be very surprised to see any Pacifican admit they are isolated now, let alone that they are so weak that they are no longer a "threat" to anyone.

But I could be wrong, or just off in these semantics.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Geopet

[WorkingClassRuler]

I'm thinking JM gets an A for Effort, but no Gold Star. Gold Stars are reserved for people who do things correctly.

As long as we encourage him to get it right.

Kicking Atlantis off aqua?

The way we went about it? Sure. The act itself? Not really. It solidified our position as the #1 Aqua alliance, ensured we only had friendly alliances in the sphere, and indeed showed we were only mostly harmless. It was by no means entirely undeserved, either.

Also, hey CZ.

~Sigh~ Sad thing is I have logs showing one of your triums saying other wise, I just love it how MHA try to cover up things like they do, but I know you guys would just try to make up I all lying, just like you alliance try to make it out that you lot are prefect and how you show any care about the work your ex-members did for your alliance. Makes me glad to be rid of yous cause you cant face the facts

lol Good luck getting over our apparent ebil awfulness now that you're in your new home. Just do yourself a favor and don't treat it exactly like your old one, at least for Nolissar's sake.

[shahenshah]

This thread delivers.

I wish I was there during WUT, then this thread would have delivered even more.

[kingzog]

assuming "it" will never happen to them.

And there we go.

That sums it up quite nicely.

[Bob Janova]

The NPO was not isolated, you can see that by the number of alliances which still fought for it even when they made a huge diplomatic mistake. And they are a dangerous rogue alliance; they started a global war over nothing, and not for the first time (GW3).

When talking about strength, you miss a very important point: strength is relative. 6M NS now is worth as much as 12M NS before the war, and the destruction of the Hegemony makes other political constructs like Citadel, SF and C&G that much stronger, even if they have lost absolute NS. (This is the reverse of the normal 'NS inflation' that causes a 3M NS alliance today to be much less strong than a year ago.)

[Vinzent Zeppelin]

The NPO was not isolated, you can see that by the number of alliances which still fought for it even when they made a huge diplomatic mistake. And they are a dangerous rogue alliance; they started a global war over nothing, and not for the first time (GW3).

This one -- the NPO is anything but incompetent; for so long as they exist they will continue to be a threat to alliances and nations the world over.

Also hello Geopet how are you

[astronaut jones]

This one -- the NPO is anything but incompetent; for so long as they exist they will continue to be a threat to alliances and nations the world over.

Also hello Geopet how are you

i think it fully depends on who's in charge. But, I don't think the NPO could really function without the current crop at the helm, unless someone like ivan went back, but, I think that would be a mistake on their part and on his part. But that's just speculation.

[avernite]

The NPO was not isolated, you can see that by the number of alliances which still fought for it even when they made a huge diplomatic mistake. And they are a dangerous rogue alliance; they started a global war over nothing, and not for the first time (GW3).

Come now, GW3 was not started over nothing. GW3 was started to crush the League (what remained of it, anyway) which is a reasonable idea considering the strength of the League was not previously broken.

That it proved to have no strength is something different, and it certainly was a war for power, but I don't call that rogue behaviour.

[Bob Janova]

Well, by 'over nothing' I meant 'with no reason other than power politics'. An alliance which is prepared to start a war for nothing more than power politics is an extremely dangerous one to leave around, whether you call that 'rogue' or not.

[enderland]

Well, by 'over nothing' I meant 'with no reason other than power politics'. An alliance which is prepared to start a war for nothing more than power politics is an extremely dangerous one to leave around, whether you call that 'rogue' or not.

You might want to reword this

[Electron Sponge]

Well, by 'over nothing' I meant 'with no reason other than power politics'. An alliance which is prepared to start a war for nothing more than power politics is an extremely dangerous one to leave around, whether you call that 'rogue' or not.

That's a lot of alliances, Bob. Yours included.

[Geopet]

This one -- the NPO is anything but incompetent; for so long as they exist they will continue to be a threat to alliances and nations the world over.

Also hello Geopet how are you

Yes, and nice to see Bob Janova is still saying it like it is so well.

Also, hi Zepp, I hope we also can mend some fences some day soon.

[Buller]

That's a lot of alliances, Bob. Yours included.

Just how many wars are you the architect or co-architect of?

[James Wilson]

Just how many wars are you the architect or co-architect of?

Hmmm...that was blunt.

[Electron Sponge]

Just how many wars are you the architect or co-architect of?

Quite a few. Notice I didn't start out that post by claiming sainthood. I was one of the architects of GW3 along with leaders from the rest of the Initiative alliances, TOP included.

The point of my post was that nearly no one's hands are clean.