The Heart of Echelon

[Leigon]

Additionally, Echelon has never given any terms that even remotely resemble 400 mil and 35k tech, and certainly not with stupid restrictions on who can send it. That 10k tech from MK is the only thing that's even in the same neighborhood, and as has been said before, when you ride with NPO, you take the good with the bad - Just like all of the Karma alliances that were once allied with NPO have done in the past. When big brother lays down the reps and tells you to take them, you just do it.

Which alliance in specific is asking for 35k? It's not that any single alliance wants more than 10k tech which is what Echelon got from MK. If you wanna compare 35k to something compare it to the 100k or so MK had to pay in total. That would make some sense at least.

You also you have to remember Echelon declared war on 14 alliance and therefore should in my opinion have been pretty happy about reaching decent terms at all. Seemingly though Echelon thinks they are deserving of white peace and I'm afraid most of GOD sees it differently.

[Mixoux]

Which alliance in specific is asking for 35k? It's not that any single alliance wants more than 10k tech which is what Echelon got from MK. If you wanna compare 35k to something compare it to the 100k or so MK had to pay in total. That would make some sense at least.

You also you have to remember Echelon declared war on 14 alliance and therefore should in my opinion have been pretty happy about reaching decent terms at all. Seemingly though Echelon thinks they are deserving of white peace and I'm afraid most of GOD sees it differently.

This. 35K tech is the total between all the alliances asking for reps. I think the highest asked by a single alliance is 10K.

[x Tela x]

Echelon thinks they are deserving of white peace and I'm afraid most of GOD sees it differently.

Show me these posts, please. The ones where Echelon members think they should get white peace.

Echelon should pay reps - they lost a war. I get that, but you're trying to get blood from a turnip.

[Barix9]

This. 35K tech is the total between all the alliances asking for reps. I think the highest asked by a single alliance is 10K.

Guess that kind of pokes holes in your "oh we're being mistreadted by outrageous terms" arguement doesnt it there people. Things always follow your needs when you leave out important info.

[NoFish]

Show me these posts, please. The ones where Echelon members think they should get white peace.

Echelon should pay reps - they lost a war. I get that, but you're trying to get blood from a turnip.

Are you seriously trying to argue that Echelon doesn't have the tech? In the viable nations they have 79k tech available. The alliance as a whole has 91k (and I think it was around 100 when the terms were being written, I remember it being something like 30%). Sure it would hurt a bit, that's the point. Can they pay it? Yes. Easily. Also I don't know where you're getting your numbers, Tela. It's 300m and 34k, not 400 and 35. It's not really a big difference but please get it right.

(edit: Last part was unnecessarily rude)

Edited June 1, 2009 by NoFish

[x Tela x]

Guess that kind of pokes holes in your "oh we're being mistreadted by outrageous terms" arguement doesnt it there people. Things always follow your needs when you leave out important info.

You're missing the point. If it would be a faster rebuild for most nations to simply re-roll, then obviously the reps are extreme. May as well use up the nations they've got, burn em to the ground, and start over. That's where this has been heading, with the starting numbers on those reps. If you have any interest in peace, then work towards that as a goal. You can't expect to recoup even a tiny portion of losses in a nuclear conflict, so why bother? Get what you can get out of it and move on.

Only those with a full compliment of wonders would rebuild faster than a well played re-roll.

[Leigon]

Show me these posts, please. The ones where Echelon members think they should get white peace.

Echelon should pay reps - they lost a war. I get that, but you're trying to get blood from a turnip.

Seemingly though Echelon thinks they are deserving of white peace and I'm afraid most of GOD sees it differently.

Please post the whole sentence at least next time and don't take my words out of context.

I never said there are posts where they state this. I said it seemed as if they thought that. Now, please tell, how am I to prove what they thought? I'm also too lazy to go on and collect tons of quotes for a sidenote at best. Fact is: You dug your own grave during and before this war and decided to attack people who already disliked you. That's all nice when you win and stuff, but when the other side wins it usually means trouble. Now considering all those facts I found those terms really rather good. I'd have accepted them, if the decision was mine to make. So after consulting the Grämlins golden rep rule, I'd say they are really pretty decent. Guess that's where our opinions will finally clash.

[Aloop]

To be fair to GOD, they have never rolled with NPO, and only briefly with NpO in the old days before their merge. (IBC represent! A great alliance!) So when they do things their way, they really are doing it their way. They don't have any history like many karma alliances that would point them out to be hypocrites. GOD has stood on their own merits for a long time, without aligning with the elite powers in the world. That is to be respected, for what it's worth.

You're still a bunch of d-bags, though.

IBC > GOD

As the highest ranking member of IBC still in GOD, I'd like to address some things briefly.

1. Aside from a piece of paper, IBC never rolled with NpO either. GW3 was fought alongside VE and CNC.

2. On behalf of all the IBC'ers left in GOD: Go away.

[x Tela x]

Please post the whole sentence at least next time and don't take my words out of context.

I never said there are posts where they state this. I said it seemed as if they thought that. Now, please tell, how am I to prove what they thought?

I'm not sure how you can prove what you think that they thought. That's probably a good reason not to go around claiming something that's just not true, isn't it?

[Proxian Empire]

I am enjoying this discussion.

[Midkn1ght]

That's where this has been heading, with the starting numbers on those reps

Funny you mention that. They didn't try to discuss or barter anything, they did ask a few questions though. They acted like how dare we even give them terms other then white peace. Starting point is starting point. They were more concerned over what we meant by staying cute on the OWF, then anything else, so don't claim anyone wasted Echelon's precious time (cute = no flaming/trolling iirc) And for someone supposedly out of the loop, you seem remarkably well informed and interested in Echelon's status.

So sorry of us not pulling a NPO and letting them tell us the terms they want. Acting like this is going to ruin Echelon... who cares? They chose to go to war with half the flipping planet, deal with it. I know for a fact most of their top 10's are fine, hell you got Death rebuying infra buy the bucketload to wade back in after TOP finally screwed up the stagger and released him to peace mode for a week, and I KNOW the WC of most of their top 40 nations effected by the rep condition. Boo. Hoo. I wish I had a billion+ sitting idle like some of them do 40 days into peace mode.

That's probably a good reason not to go around claiming something that's just not true, isn't it?

Echelon keeps going around screaming about honor and respect, you may want to forward this comment to them.

o7 IBC and Smith

[Leigon]

I'm not sure how you can prove what you think that they thought. That's probably a good reason not to go around claiming something that's just not true, isn't it?

Which is why I was never trying to prove it. And why I also din't mean it literally to begin with.

But while we're playing at words. Can you disprove that they think this? Echelon didn't even try to negotiate terms. So as far as I know they could really have wanted to demand that. At least I haven't seen an official statement regarding how much Echelon would or would not be ready to pay. All I see is people whining because they finally get some of their own medicine.

[ChairmanHal]

Hold on there, buckaroo. All of BLEU was told at the time that Polaris had evidence, and they would release it shortly, once it was all put together etc, blah blah.

I remember this. I also remember them telling the OWF the same thing. Never happened.

That was an error in judgement, from every alliance in BLEU, for putting faith into our ally. We trusted them and took them at their word and went to war at their side. I only found out for sure AFTER the war, when a Polaris member showed me the proof, where Assington posted to his body republic that they had no evidence, but they "knew it was NADC".

Smelled bad then, smelled bad later. Of what actually happened came out later, sort of... The NADC war and the fake CB would have made a nice addition to Echelon's withdraw from BLEU justification. Pity you didn't use it.

Additionally, Echelon has never given any terms that even remotely resemble 400 mil and 35k tech, and certainly not with stupid restrictions on who can send it. That 10k tech from MK is the only thing that's even in the same neighborhood, and as has been said before, when you ride with NPO, you take the good with the bad - Just like all of the Karma alliances that were once allied with NPO have done in the past. When big brother lays down the reps and tells you to take them, you just do it.

Oh you could have done a number of things even in a passive aggressive fashion (like handing out the tech to other alliances) to make it better. This bit comes off as weak and makes Echelon look more like paid hitmen than an alliance.

^ That's wrong on a fundamental level, but it's how the world worked. If you bunch of d-bags succeed in creating an anarchistic world where there is no proven power at the top calling most of the shots, then that will be a great improvement to the political metagame within planet Bob's system. I'm not optimistic, though. Instead of 1 power, we'll have a handful of powers, and they'll act the same way. Why? Because they can.

Oh I see multiple rival blocs arising already, the keyword being 'rival' since it's clear that there are people who genuinely don't like each other. Without NPO to kick around anymore, odds are wars between blocs will be much more frequent. Perhaps at some point things will settle down into a unified megabloc similar to Q that creates MDP gridlock, but it won't happen soon.

To be fair to GOD, they have never rolled with NPO, and only briefly with NpO in the old days before their merge. (IBC represent! A great alliance!) So when they do things their way, they really are doing it their way. They don't have any history like many karma alliances that would point them out to be hypocrites. GOD has stood on their own merits for a long time, without aligning with the elite powers in the world. That is to be respected, for what it's worth.

Their membership in Superfriends makes them part of the new elite powers. Are they hypocrites? At worst they are enablers and facilitators for hypocrites. That doesn't make them "evil" however.

[Mixoux]

Their membership in Superfriends makes them part of the new elite powers. Are they hypocrites? At worst they are enablers and facilitators for hypocrites. That doesn't make them "evil" however.

Also, it's not as if SF's goal from its formation was to inevitably take down all opposition and rise as the next superpower* (no pun intended ).

*Pun edit: Though if it was, we'd probably want heat vision.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Mixoux

[brickyard]

Ballsy.

[Leigon]

Also, it's not as if SF's goal from its formation was to inevitably take down all opposition and rise as the next superpower* (no pun intended ).

*Pun edit: Though if it was, we'd probably want heat vision.

Of course GOD on the other hand certainly has that goal.

[Leetopia II]

What the heck??

I couldn't do a tech deal until I surrendered

[Mixoux]

Steadfast dedication to the tech corps. Bravo!

[Xiphosis]

Their membership in Superfriends makes them part of the new elite powers.

Won't get into this particular argument, save to say that we got into SF on our own merits as well. If we've become the elite, it's not simply because we cuddled up to others who did it. Which, freakily enough, was Tela's point.

[Heft]

Forward the tech brigade.

[Midkn1ght]

I couldn't do a tech deal until I surrendered

.... I .... n/m don't want to touch that. Cortath must be salivating, remember NPO has all that tech to sell! /facepalm

Edited June 1, 2009 by Midkn1ght

[Shamed]

I couldn't do a tech deal until I surrendered

I...uh...I can't even find the words other than greatest reason for surrender ever.

[mykep]

Ballsy.

They lost the thread, so I'm sure they lost more by your statement.

[King DrunkWino]

I...uh...I can't even find the words other than greatest reason for surrender ever.

Indeed. It's inspiring even...

[ChairmanHal]

I couldn't do a tech deal until I surrendered

Sadly, I actually believe you mean this.

Xiphosis writes:

Won't get into this particular argument, save to say that we got into SF on our own merits as well. If we've become the elite, it's not simply because we cuddled up to others who did it. Which, freakily enough, was Tela's point.

And one I also concur with...scary.