ChairmanHal Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 After losing a war their allies started, no less. That your alliance had been trying to get started since before the Sparta "spying" incident. Enough of the "we were walking by and noticed a fire" b.s., too many other people know better. This is not to proclaim NPO innocent victims, they hardly qualify either. No one is innocent here. Speaking of... Echelon is well known for its unsavory interalliance politics and almost laughable attempts to strong arm people, particularly smaller alliances that had the absolute gall to have a presence on the OWF (Browncoats ring a bell? hmm?). Individual members may feel differently, those individual members need a history lesson of their own alliance's activities. That said, Echelon is free to walk away from the table if GOD demands reparations that are insulting. Given the price that had to be paid to buy Kaiser Martens freedom from GOD condemnation some months ago over some long past issue (though everyone forgot about that one, eh?), I can only imagine what other terms Echelon was given besides the one that supposedly killed the deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormsend Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 It's extremely transparent, and knowing GOD's leadership, they've got some grudges... This entire war is based on grudges. All wars are based on grudges, old or new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathias Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 You sure about that?I just ran the numbers up, it comes out to 74,702 tech, which would reduce them to an avg. 1,240 tech. 668 for the entire alliance. Could be much worse. But where does GOD muster the audacity to do such a thing?! Echelon has never taken part in such actions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Anglia Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 There is nothing wrong with the message that GOD sent out. In fact, it is a wonderful propaganda peace for use in war. Did you want GOD to be all cuddly and hand you cookies and hot chocolate in the midst of war? This part I can agree with. As I said, psych warfare is a personal choice. The factuality of the post is debatable, especially where GOD's leaders are ignoring it's own allies and perhaps it's own member's wishes to continue this war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 That your alliance had been trying to get started since before the Sparta "spying" incident. Enough of the "we were walking by and noticed a fire" b.s., too many other people know better. This is not to proclaim NPO innocent victims, they hardly qualify either. No one is innocent here. We were trying to win it, not start it. There is a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Z Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) Just a note.Assuming the mentioned reps of 35K tech, entirely taken from nations with 1K tech or higher, is true. Echelon currently has 32 nations with 1K tech or higher. Those nations have in total 39,244 tech (yes I ran the numbers). These terms would reduce them to an average of 132.625 tech. Yeah that's totally with precedent in the history of interalliance conflict. Your calculator must be malfunctioning. I just ran the numbers and they have 74,702.67 tech in nations with greater than 1K tech. It's extremely transparent, and knowing GOD's leadership, they've got some grudges, and would almost surely rather see Echelon destroyed than to actually grant them peace of any kind. What's the point of such a specific term? If it wasn't created simply because you all knew it would be turned down, then what purpose does it serve? It's quite evident that you don't want your blood money like other alliances. You want the blood instead. Why drag all those alliances to the table if you already know what you want? You want this war to continue until Echelon is dust. Why waste everyone's time, Xiphosis? This part I can agree with. As I said, psych warfare is a personal choice. The factuality of the post is debatable, especially where GOD's leaders are ignoring it's own allies and perhaps it's own member's wishes to continue this war. These terms were agreed to by all 13 alliances left on Echelon. I specifically remember posting these terms to the majority of them myself and asking if they had any objections or terms they'd like to see added. There were none of the former and quite a few of the latter. Edited May 31, 2009 by Big Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mixoux Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 This part I can agree with. As I said, psych warfare is a personal choice. The factuality of the post is debatable, especially where GOD's leaders are ignoring it's own allies and perhaps it's own member's wishes to continue this war. Which of our allies were we ignoring, exactly? Everyone at the talks (with the exception of TOP/TSO who aren't our allies anyway) seemed to be in agreeance with the terms presented. Our membership feels the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 You sure about that?I just ran the numbers up, it comes out to 74,702 tech, which would reduce them to an avg. 1,240 tech. 668 for the entire alliance. Could be much worse. Right, I'm firing my spreadsheet. Mixoux's numbers are correct; I rechecked, building the spreadsheet a different way. (Well 74,702.67 actually.) I'm still not sure if there's a precedent for this. Did the Coalition take half of the tech from Polaris' top nations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In Spades Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 This thread turned into a GOD recruitment thread after page 3. Awesome job there! As for the whole "stop the grudge" mentality; yeah, sure, whatever. Talk to me after you let go of the grudge on the NPO. Double standards FTW? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Sykes Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Okay look, we have tried to explain this on several occasions. Tela's old nation is gone. When she quit, she also gave up any power she had in Echelon. You have a diplomat floating around. Send the guy over, get a copy of the damned Constitution. While you are at it feel free to check her mask on our boards, and Caffine's for that matter. They are in no way, shape, or form involved with us. To continually use this old guilt by association chestnut after a year or better makes you sound like someone who can't let go of a personal grudge. That is just sad. Ahhh... guilt by past association....horrible thing....Someone should ask Grub and Polaris about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khyber Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Echelon has never acted uncivil or without honor. We expected the same from all our opponents, however its clear that we expected too much of GOD. Memoryproblems, this is a lie. You've never seen how both Tela and Caffine conducted "diplomacy" when they were on top of the world. Just because both individuals are not there, that doesn't change the fact that your goverment time and time again placed their weight behind them to give them that power to bully. Even Solidus strong armed on the few occasions I saw logs while in goverment in Echelon. Those that had problems left in disgust over a very pro longed period. The sad thing is that many in Echelon don't know this due to how closed the goverment is with it's members. I hope things change for the better, as I still have friends there, but I doubt it much tbh. GOD doing the same thing to you as you have done to others is no great sin, I accept it as how some alliances conduct politics, it's just not my style. Just because I supported TOP pulling out, doesn't mean I have sympathy for Echelon, it just means that I wasn't going to go around enforcing some of the demands asked for by them if we were not going to be involved in the making of those demands, and if I fundementally disagreed with some of those demands. I honestly didn't mind the reps, maybe a bit steep but that is how they negotiate them. So please don't use our name in a propaganda piece to suit your ends. GOD is no great evil, and no great saint. They are simply GOD, as you are Echelon, and I am TOP. Just different playing styles, with emphasis placed on different issues. You wish to judge, I can garentee you that not a single one of us are without flaws or acts of vengence, hate, or greed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacingOutMan Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 I can remember back to the BLEU-NADC War... and I can recall a few gem moments when Echelon acted with such classless fervor. Fast forward a bit... I recall a few gem statements in the 1V-GATO War by several Echelon members condemning CSN to disbandment. I'll have to go quote-searching a some point, but after those two wars my respect for you, Echelon, is less than that of someone who cries all day and does nothing about it. "The Heart of Echelon"? You really need to rethink how you title your threads, because all I see right now are broken hearts bawwwwwing out in contemptuous delight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heft Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 This thread turned into a GOD recruitment thread after page 3. Awesome job there!As for the whole "stop the grudge" mentality; yeah, sure, whatever. Talk to me after you let go of the grudge on the NPO. Double standards FTW? Aren't the same ones holding a grudge against Echelon largely the same ones holding a grudge against NPO (or at least acting on it)? I am puzzled by your post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mixoux Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Ahhh... guilt by past association....horrible thing....Someone should ask Grub and Polaris about this. The problem I have with their arguments on that is that they act as if the rest of Echelon was in disagreement of those actions. These leaders were chosen to lead Echelon for a reason, and I don't remember seeing them removed because of differences of opinion. No; the majority of the alliance went with it and continued putting their trust and faith in them. By trying to disassociate yourselves with past actions of your former leaders, all you're really doing is turning them into the scapegoat, so that you may distance yourselves from your past that you so created yourselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChairmanHal Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) We were trying to win it, not start it. There is a difference. Your odds of winning it improved by not starting it, but making it look like NPO did. Jackpot. Once again, there are no innocent victims here. Not NPO. Not GOD. Not Echelon. Not Valhalla. Not RIA. EDIT: clarity Edited May 31, 2009 by ChairmanHal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
x Tela x Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Why did the Schatterbox dump a log that shows him bullying a 5 nation alliance? The audacity of standing up for a small alliance. It's truly shocking. Also, Random, and whoever else.. I haven't lost this war, technically. I'm an independent with no ties to Echelon or any other alliance, aside from my super secret unilateral defense pact with Pacifica. Of course, once I got bumped down to under 1k NS, it was annoying finding any little targets, so I went hippy so I can hang out and re-roll at my leisure, if I choose. Fake Edit: Also, 35k tech? Seems pretty high considering the state of Echelon, but not impossible or anything. With it all coming from the top nations, though, it makes it quite a bit more difficult. Were there any cash considerations involved in addition to that 35k tech? It's asking an awful lot. Go ahead and look back through Echelon's offered reps in wars that they won in the past. There is only one example where you can reasonably find any fault in terms of reparation totals. I wasn't active at the time, but I believe it was 10k tech from MK to Echelon. I'm pretty sure that Echelon initially pushed for white peace as well, but were not in charge of the show. Regrettable, yes. Much like the past actions of many alliances on both sides of this war. Either way, with terms that are purposely high, you will often end up with a disbanded alliance, or an alliance merged into "POW", or eternal warfare. None of those options nets any gain to recoup the victors' losses, though I'm sure it would be a satisfactory end for most involved. What would Pacifica's terms be on the same scale as Echelon's? The tech amount has to be rather astounding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Anglia Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Aren't the same ones holding a grudge against Echelon largely the same ones holding a grudge against NPO (or at least acting on it)? I am puzzled by your post.Well that bit is simple. In their eyes we are a (really) mini NPO. As I have said in other posts, just because someone or even a few people say something is so, it doesn't always mean it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingzog Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Full disclosure: Two of Echelon's leaders took part in extorting $50 million from a former alliance of mine for completely BS reasons, so I don't really care what happens to the alliance as a whole. Now that I've got that out of the way, I believe all this thread will do is make things more difficult for Echelon as a whole. I doubt that was its intent. Actually, I've no idea what its intent was, except to perhaps garner a bit of sympathy in the wake of the TOP/TSO announcement. Also, the PM quoted in the OP is completely reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doitzel Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Can someone please explain what exactly the grievances here are, besides "you won't give us white peace"? All I see is a lot of circular "you're more evil!" "no u are!" "no u!" exchanges. Echelon is claiming that GOD is being 'dishonourable' for attempting to harm their alliance while at war, I think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin McDonald Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 I think I missed it in the OP. Who ended up become the new trium of GGA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R&R-Viking Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 I think I missed it in the OP. Who ended up become the new trium of GGA? Big Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mixoux Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Can someone please explain what exactly the grievances here are, besides "you won't give us white peace"? All I see is a lot of circular "you're more evil!" "no u are!" "no u!" exchanges. Echelon is claiming that GOD is being 'dishonourable' for attempting to harm their alliance while at war, I think? The reality that alliances conduct their peace negotiations in a myriad of different ways is shocking for some, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Parry Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Also, the PM quoted in the OP is completely reasonable. Yeah, I gotta say I'm with this. I fail to see the evil in allowing individual Echelon nations to surrender after those who supposedly represent them decided they found their tech more valuable than their membership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lebubu Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 I wasn't active at the time, but I believe it was 10k tech from MK to Echelon. I'm pretty sure that Echelon initially pushed for white peace as well, but were not in charge of the show. Regrettable, yes. Much like the past actions of many alliances on both sides of this war. NPO forced you to take our tech. Tragic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mixoux Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 NPO forced you to take our tech. Tragic. Naturally, otherwise they might have just decided to revoke that 1V offer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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