Joint Announcement from The Sweet Oblivion and The Order of the Paradox

[Haflinger]

GOD's treaty with Sparta was fairly recent, well after the Hegemony's political decline and the internal drama that lead Sparta to switch sides.

I know you don't really mean this Delta, but the implication here is that by signing a treaty with GOD, Sparta was conspiring against its treaty partners in Continuum.

If an alliance wishes to change around its treaty arrangements, the proper way to go about it is to cancel treaties with alliances it no longer respects, and then (possibly) look for replacements. You're saying here that Sparta did it the other way around.

Of that 3 mil though, most of it winds up in the pocket of the seller, though. If you are paying for the tech in-alliance and sensing it out, the alliance as a whole only loses around 1.8 mil per 100 tech sent out. I think that's where he was getting his number from.

At the time, though, GR was mass importing tech. I would say charging it at 3M per 100T is logical, especially given that even in alliances who buy a lot of their tech locally (like Invicta) a decent amount of those tech sellers do not stay in the alliance longterm (most get lost to the 20-day script, alas), whereas tech-buying nations tend to stick around.

[SoxNation]

It includes me, does that help?

Noone likes you Some-Guy NOONE!

Oh and Count De Silva.

How do we mess with each other? We don't fight each other, we debate and scream and yell and give our opinions.

[Dr. Dan]

TOP as a whole? Does that include you?

You can't help but be impressed by your growth. 2nd in nuke count, passed us in MPs. You guys are doing it right and I respect that.

On top of that, I find certain members of your government to be...appealing.

[SoxNation]

You can't help but be impressed by your growth. 2nd in nuke count, passed us in MPs. You guys are doing it right and I respect that.

On top of that, I find certain members of your government to be...appealing.

Whoa Dan, whoa...

I'll divulge a TOP secret Citadel Secret, Dan likes you, do you like him too? Check yes or no.

[Ski11585]

You can't help but be impressed by your growth. 2nd in nuke count, passed us in MPs. You guys are doing it right and I respect that.

On top of that, I find certain members of your government to be...appealing.

Except Fallen Fool left us

Thanks for the kind words though

[Fallen Fool]

It includes me, does that help?

Yes.

You can't help but be impressed by your growth. 2nd in nuke count, passed us in MPs. You guys are doing it right and I respect that.

On top of that, I find certain members of your government to be...appealing.

Zbaldwin is a hussy.

Don't be fooled by his lies.

Except Fallen Fool left us

Thanks for the kind words though

I'm still with you in spirit Ski.

Kind of.

Sorta.

Edited June 2, 2009 by Fallen_Fool

[D34th]

Except Fallen Fool left us

I guess he is talking about NSO.

[Dr. Dan]

Zbaldwin is a hussy.

Don't be fooled by his lies.

He said he loved me, though.

[Vol Navy]

Great post Crymson.

I get rather annoyed when people think because a portion of Citadel does something it was official policy. Such as that war and Citadel was pro Hegemony. OG and FCC were not part of the battle against NpO. As for Hegemony Gramlins left a long time ago, first to leave, Umbrella and FCC have never been part of it. I always get a chuckle when people think they know anything about Citadel.

The only thing people really need to know though is that if you mess with one of us, you mess with all of us.

I'm sorry, but your last line tells the tale on why you were part of the Hegemony. Just like all of SF were. You had a high level treaty with each other and with members of Q (as 3 of 5 members of Cit were in Q during Q's "reign of terror") and you roll as a group per your own words.

No use in denying your past, all you can do is work for a better future and hope for the best.

[Nizzle]

I'm sorry, but your last line tells the tale on why you were part of the Hegemony. Just like all of SF were. You had a high level treaty with each other and with members of Q (as 3 of 5 members of Cit were in Q during Q's "reign of terror") and you roll as a group per your own words.

No use in denying your past, all you can do is work for a better future and hope for the best.

I think it's funny you say that.

The NpO War nearly tore Citadel apart.

[Delta1212]

I'm sorry, but your last line tells the tale on why you were part of the Hegemony. Just like all of SF were. You had a high level treaty with each other and with members of Q (as 3 of 5 members of Cit were in Q during Q's "reign of terror") and you roll as a group per your own words.

No use in denying your past, all you can do is work for a better future and hope for the best.

Vanguard has a treaty with Echelon and Athens has a treaty with Sparta. I take it C&G is a member of the Hegemony?

[Matthew Conrad]

Sparta's name was on the terms. That says to me that Sparta accepts them and shares the responsibility for them. This thread is what you see happening when an alliance on the front doesn't like the terms, they don't sign them.

So Sparta is responsible for those terms just like TPF is responsible for the terms and reps we've been a part of in the past. That is fine, we accept it. I've currently lost 13,000+ infra, 3000+ tech, nearly 1 billion dollars cash, and 11,000+ miles of land for the past actions of TPF. In addition I fully expect we will be asked to pay reps and get terms of our own. That is ok too, we may not be able to pay them, but we've been beaten to a pulp and paid for our past in 40 days of nuclear fire. We are fighting some pretty good alliances right now. I expect them to be fair.

What isn't ok to me are alliances who switched to Karma for this war who are trying to deny their's and their allies Hegemonic past. Those who aren't trying to change at all when the buildup to this war was built on change.

I fully expect Citadel actually believed in that change and they have actually followed through with it on their fronts. Yet they are villified in thread after thread for actually keeping to what they preached in the early war stages.

As for those terms Sparta agreed to and signed, the tech wasn't a huge deal. Their harsh harsh wonder terms were crippling to nations that had them.

Think of it like this, the $150,000,000 they had to spend to rebuy their WRC alone would have bought 5000 tech at 3 mil/100 tech.

If a Greenland nation had all four wonders they were out $245,000,000 they'd spent on the wonders, and another $245,000,000 to rebuy the wonders, plus the lost 4 months of wonder buying. So a massive alliance like IRON had to pay 1.5 billion cash this war and that was a major cash amount vs past reps. That is almost what it cost GR due to that term alone if only 3 nations had those wonders. Not to mention the 20 million each someone pointed out for lost spies. GR is a pretty stout military alliance. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if at least 3 of their nations had all 4 wonders at that time (10 currently have the WRC). Really, I'd be shocked if less than 20 had the other 3. Once again, that's not even counting the desired extra 100,000,000 for the MP that had to be edited out once someone pointed out that it can't be destroyed.

So Sparta's reps were failrly light. Their terms were not.

As for trying to seperate GOD and RoK from each other and their Hegemonic past is silly. It's also silly to try and claim that because they weren't multiply tied (which in my eyes they were since SF is a MADP bloc) to what is referred to has Hegemony. "Only" being tied directly to Q one time is still GOD supporting Q/Hegemony actions with their diplomatic weight and as was shown vs Polaris and friends, their military weight.

If you really want to discuss numbers, I would suggest you not skipping over my previous post. Also, once again you prove to completely miss my point and pull a glaring reach around the subject of debate. You are trying to pin all of the terms on Sparta. I said if you were going to blame us, you better not try and call us out independently.

What's silly is you calling the connection of an MADP with an MDP a direct connection. Non-chaining clauses completely wipe that off the board and if you knew that you would probably not have posted that, or at least I would hope so as it doesn't make sense. Directly supporting a member of Q is not the same thing as rolling with Q. You can call out Sparta for it because I admit we were part of that system, if only sometimes for not speaking out, but GOD wasn't a part of the Hegemony.

[Matthew Conrad]

The bolded section is untrue, actually. The Citadel as an entity was most certainly not the 'main force' behind that war. The Gramlins, Umbrella and Old Guard indeed did also fight in the war (the FCC was actually against the war), but---and this is not an effort on my part to tout ourselves at all---TOP was far and away the alliance that most drove for the war amongst those from the Citadel who fought in it. And, indeed, we were far from the only alliances desiring war with Polar. Much of the Continuum (amongst others) was absolutely chomping at the bit for a shot at Polar, and theretofore the only thing that had held us back was our respect for the wishes of the New Pacific Order; Polar was under the unofficial protection of the NPO, and the latter had asked that we all abstain from offensive operations against Polaris. But for this, the war against Polar would have begun significantly earlier---and there were a multitude of alliances who were driving to make that war a reality.

So no, the Citadel as an entity was absolutely not 'the main force' behind that war, and only one of its signatories (TOP) was amongst those alliances forming the 'main force' that brought it about. And, indeed, at that point Polaris had---through past actions and behavior---generated an immense amount of hostility towards themselves, hence the massive and diverse coalition (as an example, the major joint declaration of war on Polaris here] included alliances from all three of the Continuum, the Citadel and the Superfriends) that arose to combat they and their allies. Given all of these facts, I can only assume that what you've said in your post regarding that war is complete conjecture on your part.

If you don't believe me on any of the history I've listed above, feel free to ask Tulak Hord of it; having been a member of Sparta government at the time (and still, of course), he will confirm that what I've said (regarding the 'major forces' behind the war, at the very least) is true.

I'd like to note, as an aside, that TOP has been impressed by Polaris's conduct and growth since the war, and that we hold no carryover hostility nor any negative feelings in general toward them at this point.

My apologies for citing Citadel, I knew the history between Polar and TOP but since Citadel is close-knit I didn't want to call TOP out individually (I realize there was internal friction due to the reps also).

[SoxNation]

I'm sorry, but your last line tells the tale on why you were part of the Hegemony. Just like all of SF were. You had a high level treaty with each other and with members of Q (as 3 of 5 members of Cit were in Q during Q's "reign of terror") and you roll as a group per your own words.

No use in denying your past, all you can do is work for a better future and hope for the best.

Sigh. We rolled as a group if anyone messed with us. GRE, TOP, OG off galavanting with Q and any wars they got into had nothing to do with us, and all knew that our treaties would not chain, nice try though.

[Syzygy]

I think it's funny you say that.

The NpO War nearly tore Citadel apart.

As did the last war.

[Crymson]

My apologies for citing Citadel, I knew the history between Polar and TOP but since Citadel is close-knit I didn't want to call TOP out individually (I realize there was internal friction due to the reps also).

TOP was not either the 'main force' behind the war. We pushed hard for it to happen, yes; but we were but one of many alliances who drove to bring it about, and there were a multitude of others who were willing to help once the time for war had come. Sparta was amongst the latter.

Again, I think you're running solely on conjecture here.

[Matthew Conrad]

TOP was not either the 'main force' behind the war. We pushed hard for it to happen, yes; but we were but one of many alliances who drove to bring it about, and there were a multitude of others who were willing to help once the time for war had come. Sparta was amongst the latter.

Again, I think you're running solely on conjecture here.

TOP was a main driving force. There were others, yes but I put forth TOP as one of them because the person I was responding to at first because he was also referring to you and Gre as changing the morals of Bob while then calling out Sparta for the WotC as hegemonic aggression. My point is that they you can't just say both statements blindly without looking further into the details. I didn't say Sparta wasn't a part of that war but I don't think it's fair to try to infer she was largely responsible for it.

EDIT: I don't know why you think I'm running on conjecture. I've never said Sparta wasn't a part of it. I said TOP was one of the main forces behind it due to disputes with Polar, which is apparently true.

Edited June 2, 2009 by Matthew Conrad

[Nizzle]

As did the last war.

I wish I was there for the arguments. I can only imagine the intensity.

[Archon]

Just ask Archon. I doubt he'd lie to you. He won't come here and confirm anything on these forums, though. Not that it would matter at this point. It was a damn fine move, honestly.

Hello. If I didn't respond, it'd be moreso due to some OOC issues I was dealing with (OOC: namely, setting up a new computer). The wiki is accurate enough.

[Mogar]

OH GOD HOW DARE YOU NOT FIRST STRIKE NUKE AND DEMAND REPS, YOU'RE SO AWFUL PARADOX, GOD I HATE YOU.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

That's why you guys mess with each other amirite?

Pretty much, yeah.

Edit:

As did the last war.

This man speaks the truth. I think things are back on track now though

Edited June 2, 2009 by Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz

[Blue Lightning]

TOP is against harsh terms now? Well, that's a change. You sure seemed to enjoy imposing those terms on Polaris. But wait, this time its against your good old buddies in the the Hegemony. Boo hoo. If you guys really cared about them you'd be dying right beside them, and frankly, TSO should. The crimes of its members have still yet to be punished.

I feel it's worth noting that TOP does not have a set policy regarding reparations or surrender terms in general. The terms that we feel are appropriate are largely dependant on the specific situation at hand. In this case, we didn't feel that imposing terms were merited given Echelon's past behaviour and the current state of their nations. Hence the white peace.

The Polar war was a very different scenario with different motives involved. The fact that the terms presented then are different to those presented today reflects the change in scenario rather than policy. I'd also like to note that while we were perhaps the most active in organising the peace-terms, the end product was a collaboration of all the alliances involved in the talks and therefore not necessarily representative of any single alliance's desires.

[jstep]

Quite frankly its interesting the way in which some people are allowed to change and others aren't.

Remember that key members of Vox Populi were major players in the hegemony (Electron Sponge, Doitzel etc.) I'm not saying that what they did was either positive or negative or pretending to know the motives for it, but people outside of TOP or Citadel don't know our motives either. Pretending to know so is ignorant at best and malicious at worst.

[AlmightyGrub]

Quite frankly its interesting the way in which some people are allowed to change and others aren't.

Remember that key members of Vox Populi were major players in the hegemony (Electron Sponge, Doitzel etc.) I'm not saying that what they did was either positive or negative or pretending to know the motives for it, but people outside of TOP or Citadel don't know our motives either. Pretending to know so is ignorant at best and malicious at worst.

Far too much is made of all this change nonsense. Actions over a protracted period will show what all the current alliances in the ""power slot'' believe and practice.

Essentially, everyone deserves the chance, at least once, to prove they are what they say they are. It is easy to be cynical all the time but if we want to promote this concept of fair play then the rules have to apply equally.

If TOP is doing what they believe they need to do now, and if they believe that they needed to humiliate Polaris, then so be it. My mileage will of course differ as may yours.

[SoxNation]

Far too much is made of all this change nonsense. Actions over a protracted period will show what all the current alliances in the ""power slot'' believe and practice.

Essentially, everyone deserves the chance, at least once, to prove they are what they say they are. It is easy to be cynical all the time but if we want to promote this concept of fair play then the rules have to apply equally.

If TOP is doing what they believe they need to do now, and if they believe that they needed to humiliate Polaris, then so be it. My mileage will of course differ as may yours.

humiliate polaris?

i'm pretty sure all the top ranking members have said they actually like Polaris now after the NoCB war