Joint Announcement from The Sweet Oblivion and The Order of the Paradox

[Nizzle]

Because they were called out in the OP? That's bound to bring out a few members standing up for their alliance. Difference being of course that the posts from people in this thread is from various members of these alliances while the OP is a official statement by TOP and TSO.

I wasn't speaking about this thread, as it mainly consists of whining about TOP saying this in public during war. However, I was speaking of those persons past actions.

I feel like I keep hitting this point over and over: There is a reason to divulge why you are leaving a war early, while there is little reason to what has been done by others in the last month.

[neneko]

I wasn't speaking about this thread, as it mainly consists of whining about TOP saying this in public during war. However, I was speaking of those persons past actions.

I feel like I keep hitting this point over and over: There is a reason to divulge why you are leaving a war early, while there is little reason to what has been done by others in the last month.

My point was that something along the lines of "we're giving separate white peace since we don't agree with reps" would have sufficed. There was no need for the accusations.

edit: typo, thanks obama

Edited May 31, 2009 by neneko

[Nizzle]

My point was that something along the lines of "we're giving separate white peace since we don't agree with reps" wouldn't have sufficed. There was no need for the accusations.

I think you made a typo.

I'm not clear how this:

we were informed by GOD that they'd be seeking out the opinions on preferences for surrender terms of all the alliances involved. As it turned out, the terms were discussed but we were excluded from the initial discussions; terms were formulated and agreed to by the other alliances involved, and only afterward were they shown to TSO and TOP for input. Both of our alliances were unhappy with and adverse towards the terms in question. We felt them to be excessive and degrading. Representatives from TSO made their disagreement clear and were in discussion with members of some of the other alliances involved regarding reducing the terms. Neither TOP nor TSO ever voiced agreement to any set of terms, nor was our explicit approval of them sought out. And yet tonight we were invited into a channel and confronted soon afterward by terms being presented to Echelon.

Is accusatory.

[President Obama]

My point was that something along the lines of "we're giving separate white peace since we don't agree with reps" wouldn't have sufficed. There was no need for the accusations.

I assume you mean it would have sufficed based on the rest of your post. I can assure you the posts in this thread attacking TOP would have happened regardless. Might as well give their side of the story.

Edited May 31, 2009 by President Obama

[neneko]

I assume you mean it would have sufficed based on the rest of your post. I can assure you the posts in this thread attacking TOP would have happened regardless. Might as well give your side of the story.

Maybe a few posts by some disgrunted people but other alliances in this war have given out separate white peace without many complaints.

I'm not clear how this:

Is accusatory.

Really? I think it's pretty clear that it accuses GOD of not allowing TOP and TSO in on the peace discussions.

[Aurion]

I assume you mean it would have sufficed based on the rest of your post. I can assure you the posts in this thread attacking TOP would have happened regardless. Might as well give your side of the story.

Some of them probably would have, yes.

Would they have been as vehement or accusatory? Probably not. It certainly appeared (and likely appears) to more than a few to be a simple tit-for-tat and/or leveling accusations at another alliance regardless of what was intended.

Edited May 31, 2009 by Aurion

[Dr. Dan]

Could you please address my points instead of attacking my character (and for the record I am known to be a very objective person, with a balanced mind)? It is a known fact that despite contributing very little to the war effort, even going so far as agreeing to non-nuclear war with their "targets" to preserve their infrastructure, TOP has committed a great deal of meddling in peace discussions. Countless negotiations have fallen apart due to TOP's involvement, resulting in light peace terms for the various hegemony alliances. That was TOP's goal, to make sure that the NPO will be able to rebuild its old allies after this war by keeping them as intact as possible. TOP even pushed for white peace for IRON, after only a few weeks of fighting. Apparently TOP will be IRON's new master if my sources are correct. The answer is obvious. TOP is intentionally causing sectionalism, and you and your buddies in Citadel are blind to it. Congratulations on helping TOP build a better future for our Pacifican friends. I'm sure you'll be rewarded for your assistance one of these days.

I'm done with this thread after this.

All I can say is I'm so tired of people assuming the god damn worst of everything. You are so far off from the truth it's scary to think. What's even worse it that a bunch of people think like you too.

Some of you don't get us, that's all there is to it.

Oh, and IRON, I don't want to be your master. Go do your own thing, I hope you recover well, friends.

Good evening and good night.

[Nizzle]

Maybe a few posts by some disgrunted people but other alliances in this war have given out separate white peace without many complaints.

Really? I think it's pretty clear that it accuses GOD of not allowing TOP and TSO in on the peace discussions.

It's pretty clear that terms were decided without TOP/TSO, then presented to them. At that point they decided they were too harsh blah blah. TSO voiced their concerns. etc etc

I don't read it as being "GOD NEGOTIATED WITHOUT US". Perhaps TOP was upset they weren't there for the forumlation of them, but they definitely saw them and had a say.

[LordBucks]

It's pretty clear that terms were decided without TOP/TSO, then presented to them. At that point they decided they were too harsh blah blah. TSO voiced their concerns. etc etc

I don't read it as being "GOD NEGOTIATED WITHOUT US". Perhaps TOP was upset they weren't there for the forumlation of them, but they definitely saw them and had a say.

Except that this:

Is false. GOD went around to each alliance individually and asked for input on terms. There were no discussions for you to be excluded from. Maybe most alliances had their input before you did, but when you go to a dozen alliances one by one, someone winds up near the end. The first real group discussion was in the channel with Echelon. I'm sorry if you slipped through the cracks on getting double checked with or whatever, but you were in the room and perfectly capable of speaking up. This wasn't a particularly organized effort. GOD was the only one actively working on getting any kind of terms together, which isn't easy when you are dealing with this many alliances that need to be contacted.

Try harder next time k?

Edited May 31, 2009 by Lord Bucks

[Nizzle]

Try harder next time k?

"It's pretty clear that terms were decided without TOP/TSO, then presented to them. At that point they decided they were too harsh blah blah. TSO voiced their concerns. etc etc"

How did anything I say contradict what you said? How did TOP contradict that?

[neneko]

It's pretty clear that terms were decided without TOP/TSO, then presented to them. At that point they decided they were too harsh blah blah. TSO voiced their concerns. etc etc

I don't read it as being "GOD NEGOTIATED WITHOUT US". Perhaps TOP was upset they weren't there for the forumlation of them, but they definitely saw them and had a say.

The part

As it turned out, the terms were discussed but we were excluded from the initial discussions; terms were formulated and agreed to by the other alliances involved, and only afterward were they shown to TSO and TOP for input.

Is pretty much saying that they were intentionally left out. I think TOP actually thought they were but I don't think GOD intended to do that. Some bad management from both sides but in the end I think TOP were too quick to make this kind of post based on things they only assumed was right.

[Syzygy]

Oh, and IRON, I don't want to be your master.

Nooo, don't say such stuff! Someone already forced me to aid IRON. I am sure it was you, without me realizing it.

TOP MADE ME DO IT! I SWEAR!

o/ TOP

o/ TOP

o/ TOP

...must ...stop... thinking... on..my....own. must... obey.. obey

obey...

obey..

o/ TOP

o/ TOP

o/ TOP

Hail the new orange masters of CN.

And yes, in case there is anything unclear about it: Everyone disagreeing with TOP or refusing to hail them will be ZI'd. Beware! RV already uncovered that plot! BC and VOX should stop disbanding and target a new enemy: TOP!

[Zoomzoomzoom]

I'm quoting your post out of convenience.

How can anyone believe TOP did this as a PR stunt when it would be obvious, despite seeing how it turned out, that this would be unpopular? They went against the blood thirsty masses. I hardly consider that a PR stunt.

In previous wars this kind of action actually worked well for PR. TOP probably bet it would work well for them too while sending a message out as well.

Edited May 31, 2009 by Zoomzoomzoom

[Nizzle]

Is pretty much saying that they were intentionally left out. I think TOP actually thought they were but I don't think GOD intended to do that. Some bad management from both sides but in the end I think TOP were too quick to make this kind of post based on things they only assumed was right.

It sounds like they were more complaining about not being involved in the initial terms. They weren't saying they were never included in deciding the peace terms, as right after that they said the terms were too harsh and they argued them.

[Nizzle]

In previous wars this kind of action actually worked well for PR. TOP probably bet it would work well for them too while sending a message out as well.

Yeah, I bet that's what they thought. TOP is smarter than that, and I don't believe they thought it would be positive to leave a war practically alone and early.

[Monster]

In previous wars this kind of action actually worked well for PR. TOP probably bet it would work well for them too while sending a message out as well.

I don't think their motivation was PR. With all of the people shouting for certainterms, it wouldn't make sense. They no longer wanted to partake in this process in which they felt shunted. I don't know if that was due to misunderstanding or what, but it seemed to have a big enough effect to cause this reaction.

[Natan]

Well, it would appear it was simply NPO stating it would be willing to discuss peace due to how some things were screwed up with discussions. That was then taken and presented as if NPO was already discussing peace terms. Bigwoody believes such and flips out thus going around and telling everyone that NPO betrayed them by trying to peace out without talking to TORN. Everyone thinks its their chance to separate from NPO with good PR. That didn't go so well did it?

Actually, as proven by the wiki here, Peace negotiations did actually take place early on in april 21st, and it wasn't just "NPO stating it would be willing to discuss peace" The article from the wiki is posted below.

April 21 peace negotiations

Before the end of the fight day of the NPO-OV conflict, peace negotiations were held between members of Ordo Verde, the New Pacific Order, and Karma. Representing OV: Dani_C, Triumvir. Representing the NPO: Moo-Cows (TrotskysRevenge), Emperor; Z'ha'dum, Cortath, and Mary the Fantabulous, Imperial Officers. Representing Karma: Delta1212, Triumvir of the Random Insanity Alliance (RIA); Archon, King of the Mushroom Kingdom (MK); Tygaland, Supreme Chancellor of the Siberian Tiger Alliance (STA); and Roquentin, Triumvir of Umbrella. In them, the NPO was offered "surrender terms" in order to avoid a greater conflict. The terms offered were the following:[46]

* The NPO will issue a full, earnest, and sincere apology to Ordo Verde for their rash and unjustified declaration of war.

* The NPO will admit that the casus belli used against Ordo Verde was trumped up and that the NPO over-reacted in an effort to provoke war.

* The NPO will pay reparations to Ordo Verde at a rate of 300% the damages dealt. This includes econmic [sic] damage dealt as a result of being in peace mode. To ensure that these reparations are paid promptly, the NPO will suspend all tech deals for the duration of these terms.

* In recognition of the tensions caused by the NPO's rash declaration of war, and to ensure peace is maintained, the NPO will hereby decomission [sic] their soldiers down to 20% per nation. They will furthermore decommission all CMs, Tanks, Navy, and Aircraft. They must maintain this state for a period of 60 days.

After much discussion and argumentation, NPO representatives were prepared to agree to the first three terms listed above, but rejected the forth clause as "unacceptable." Following what was perceived by Karma to be furthered stalling, Archon threatened to put an end to the peace talks if the NPO did not agree to all terms "within the next minute."[47] After giving well more than a minute, Karma's demands were not met, and the peace negotiations were ended without an agreement.

The NPO criticized the proceedings of the peace negotiations, claiming that "these entire negotiations were a farce."[48] In a response from Archon, Karma contended that the NPO "had only one thing in mind - belligerence."[49]

[Matthew Conrad]

I don't think their motivation was PR. With all of the people shouting for certainterms, it wouldn't make sense. They no longer wanted to partake in this process in which they felt shunted. I don't know if that was due to misunderstanding or what, but it seemed to have a big enough effect to cause this reaction.

I agree that I don't think they were doing this primarily for PR. However, I think it may be a result of frustration with opposing viewpoints which is just fine. What shouldn't have happened was calling out GOD in the announcement. It could have easily left them out and said something along the lines of "We don't agree with the peace negotiations taking place so we're giving our own, separate peace." This accomplishes two objectives. First, it explains why they pulled out of the war. Second, it doesn't make the waves that this announcement made (or at least to a degree) and doesn't lead to further hostilities.

[x Tela x]

Actually, as proven by the wiki here, Peace negotiations did actually take place early on in april 21st, and it wasn't just "NPO stating it would be willing to discuss peace" The article from the wiki is posted below.

Of course, we all know that those special little wiki sites that can be edited by everyone are perfectly accurate 100% of the time. To think otherwise would be preposterous!

[CptGodzilla]

Of course, we all know that those special little wiki sites that can be edited by everyone are perfectly accurate 100% of the time. To think otherwise would be preposterous!

there have been multiple logs dumped on the forums of the surrender negotiations

[Nizzle]

I agree that I don't think they were doing this primarily for PR. However, I think it may be a result of frustration with opposing viewpoints which is just fine. What shouldn't have happened was calling out GOD in the announcement. It could have easily left them out and said something along the lines of "We don't agree with the peace negotiations taking place so we're giving our own, separate peace." This accomplishes two objectives. First, it explains why they pulled out of the war. Second, it doesn't make the waves that this announcement made (or at least to a degree) and doesn't lead to further hostilities.

Yes, because a blanket statement and a directed statement are two very different things.

[The AUT]

snip

I'm not questioning your committment to your allies in the UJW. And if you vouched for the NpO, kudos to you.

But wanting to hit Echelon to the point of disbandment? If you want to go there I'll meet you on the field soon enough.

[Sandwich Controversy]

I'm not questioning your committment to your allies in the UJW. And if you vouched for the NpO, kudos to you.

But wanting to hit Echelon to the point of disbandment? If you want to go there I'll meet you on the field soon enough.

Who said anything about that?

[x Tela x]

there have been multiple logs dumped on the forums of the surrender negotiations

Just ask Archon. I doubt he'd lie to you. He won't come here and confirm anything on these forums, though. Not that it would matter at this point. It was a damn fine move, honestly.

[Viridia]

Of course, we all know that those special little wiki sites that can be edited by everyone are perfectly accurate 100% of the time. To think otherwise would be preposterous!

The information quoted from the wiki is accurate.