Joint Announcement from The Sweet Oblivion and The Order of the Paradox

[Nizzle]

I believe the trouble is with the supposed moral outrage not the white peace.

There isn't a clear trend stating that, though. Insofar as the moral outrage, I suppose it's impossible for an alliance to apply punishment as they see fit depending on a situation. Oddly enough, if that is the argument, then it is against the supposed goals of Karma. Yes, I know TOP isn't in Karma but I am not aware the change was limited to those who prescribed to it.

Who made the OP?

I'm not really involved but most of your statements didn't seem to have a whole lot to do with what the people who are posting substantive cases for hypocricy are saying.

Pick apart convenient portions of my post? Had TOP merely posted they were leaving the war, it would have resulted in a flame fest with people saying much the same things they are now. There was more of a reason to include the information in the OP when compared to not including it.

You really aren't involved, as my response was directed to WarriorConcept, others who are complaining about TOP doing this publicly, and your first statement in this quote "Who made the OP?".

[Scorbolt]

No, the RoK thread was made to bash people. This thread clearly lists the reason for them leaving the war prior to everyone else.

EDIT: Which some of you may disagree with (the reasons for leaving), but it clear isn't in the same boat as that other thread I mentioned.

Somehow I doubt either thread was made to bash people. Why do you submit them to such a clear double standard?

[Nizzle]

Somehow I doubt either thread was made to bash people. Why do you submit them to such a clear double standard?

I humbly refer to the original OP in the RoK thread, which Gen Lee later stated was improper.

[President Obama]

They had threatened to do similar earlier had they not gotten their way. This was obviously a PR stunt as apart of what has become a smear campaign ranging from inflating offered rep amounts to threatening seperate peace offers for not having the ultimate say in regards to peace negotiation and surrender terms.

Wow, conspiracy theorist much?

Let's take your argument piece by piece:

"Inflating offered rep amounts": That was solved on the first page of that silly RoK call out thread when LM took responsibility. LM being a trusted individual, why should TOP members who had heard of these "inflated numbers" not believe him? Silly argument.

"Threatening Separate Peace Offers": Alliance sovereignty is a fun thing eh? Seems to me they had legitimate grievances with the people they were fighting on the same side as on this front.

Also, in terms of entering the war in order to secure an easy peace for Hegemony alliances? What? Do you realize how silly and far fetched you sound when you make those sorts of accusations without any sort of proof?

Edited May 31, 2009 by President Obama

[Chickenzilla]

Oh come on, TORN/OV relations breaking down was quite public and TORN was indeed looking for that fight. What happened was some cropped information was passed to TORN's leader making it appear NPO was about to seek peace with OV without doing such with TORN. Thing is, that faulty information wasnt exactly true and that particular TORN leader began running around IRC like a chicken with his head cut off spouting off to any govs that would listen to him about this story of NPO treachery. Low and behold look at all the individual MADP's that get dropped.

Uh oh, truth comes out and they all look like idiots due to that one leader whom is known for rash behavior and they suck it up and go back to helping NPO one last time.

If you dont believe that story you can always go ask your most respected leader about it.

What kind of !@#$%^&* is this? How can you assume something that you were not involved in? If there were cropped information, then Moo and Woody would have found them by now and used it against Karma.

Edited May 31, 2009 by Chickenzilla

[Shamed]

Don't throw stones on behalf of others, either. The only people in the world who have any legit basis to be pissed about what GOD did in UJW with regards to Polaris are RandomInterrupt, Assington, MyWorld and ES. They know, and saw first hand, what went down. They know it wasn't done out of some sort of farking malice for Polar. I stressed OOC for months trying to get GOONs and Polar to come to the table and at the end of the day, I had good friends telling me they were scared out of their minds because they were about to be blitzed, so I made the call.

Our original plan was neutrality. We had MADP's with \m/, GOONS, MK and Polaris. But neutrality is unbearable when you have legit friends you, you know, don't want to see burned to the ground - especially not by the likes of Norden Verein, of all people. And guess what, AUT? We lost. We lost, and furthermore, we got hunted for it.

I can't tell you how many times BLEU folks interceded to make situations they weren't involved in hard, just to spite us. I can't tell you how many times allies of mine had told me, prior to the BLEU war, that they'd be threatened or asked to drop us.

So don't even whine about us attacking CCC. We hit them for four days, let them off, and defended Polaris as much as possible on the forums when people started accusing them of crap they didn't do. And don't pull the history card on someone like me unless you intend to back your lies up. We considered Polaris a threat because they threatened us - we did our piece, dismantled their power so they couldn't hit us, then left them alone. I beg anyone to come forward with anything showing me being spiteful to NpO at any point in time.

Picking a side in UJW was one of the most gut wrenching decisions I've ever made on this game. Don't you dare go there unless you're willing to go there, kay?

I also love you. And I'm going to back up this statement because it's damn true.

[cowen70]

There isn't a clear trend stating that, though. Insofar as the moral outrage, I suppose it's impossible for an alliance to apply punishment as they see fit depending on a situation. Oddly enough, if that is the argument, then it is against the supposed goals of Karma. Yes, I know TOP isn't in Karma but I am not aware the change was limited to those who prescribed to it.

They can do what they like in regards to giving out peace. It is when they make an attack (veiled or blatent) on those who make reperations a condition.

As for the supposed goals of Karma, as far as I am aware its proportionality not white peace everywhere with fluffy bunnies and pink bows.

Pick apart convenient portions of my post? Had TOP merely posted they were leaving the war, it would have resulted in a flame fest with people saying much the same things they are now. There was more of a reason to include the information in the OP when compared to not including it.

You really aren't involved, as my response was directed to WarriorConcept, others who are complaining about TOP doing this publicly, and your first statement in this quote "Who made the OP?".

More information stating their displeasure at the other alliances. Wholly unneccessary but their choice, giving reasonable motives for a verbal retaliation from those involved.

Edited May 31, 2009 by cowen70

[HeinousOne]

What kind of !@#$%^&* is this? How can you assume something that you were not involved in? If there were cropped logs, then Moo and Woody would have found them by now and used it against Karma.

Cropped as in didnt quite show everything. This is not an assumption and obviously by looking at Archon's response I certainly have an idea what I am talking about. What exactly are you trying to defend Chick?

[Nizzle]

They can do what they like in regards to giving out peace. It is when they make an attack (veiled or blatent) on those who make reperations a condition.

I'm pretty sure the OP said that they were not considered in negotiations, and it later came out they didn't agree. However they want to represent themselves is entirely up to them, however, as long as it's done civilly. Honestly, when you have an 80(?) member alliances at almost 1 mil NS...I would be disgusted if my allies wanted reps.

As for the supposed goals of Karma, as far as I am aware its proportionality not white peace everywhere with fluffy bunnies and pink bows.

You confused what I said. A goal of Karma was to get rid of harsh terms, to change the world in that aspect. If it is wrong of TOP to give white peace, and act superior about it, then that is an argument against Karma's goals. Admittedly, many of Karma's goals have changed subtely to accept the obvious counter argument to TOP accepting harsh reps in the past, which would be the fact other alliances on Karma's side has done the same. However, it's assumed that since TOP did not subscribe fully by joining Karma they must have never changed.

More information stating their displeasure at the other alliances. Wholly unneccessary but their choice, giving reasonable motives for a verbal retaliation from those involved.

Unneccessary? Yeah, a comment like yours is why I wrote that huge rant you initially quoted as being out of place.

[Chickenzilla]

Cropped as in didnt quite show everything. This is not an assumption and obviously by looking at Archon's response I certainly have an idea what I am talking about. What exactly are you trying to defend Chick?

I am defending Archon I guess.

<3 Still love you baby.

[enderland]

Cropped as in didnt quite show everything. This is not an assumption and obviously by looking at Archon's response I certainly have an idea what I am talking about. What exactly are you trying to defend Chick?

I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about, actually.

[President Obama]

More information stating their displeasure at the other alliances. Wholly unneccessary but their choice, giving reasonable motives for a verbal retaliation from those involved.

You know, this reminds me of when everybody was praising VE for their straightforward cancellation with NPO, IRON and GGA(I think those were the alliances). Everybody was saying how great it was that people were actually giving reasons for their actions and not just covering it up in the usual nonsense.

How come this doesn't apply to TOP?

[HeinousOne]

I am defending Archon I guess.

<3 Still love you baby.

There is no need, I find what Archon did to be quite brilliant.

I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about, actually.

Of course you don't and I am quite alright with that.

Edited May 31, 2009 by HeinousOne

[Blacky]

Also, in terms of entering the war in order to secure an easy peace for Hegemony alliances? What? Do you realize how silly and far fetched you sound when you make those sorts of accusations without any sort of proof?

I assure you this was not conjecture on my part and was taken directly from what Terveis and Crymson said.

terveis says: Why is it so hard to grasp, that they had FRIENDS on both sides, they chose to be with other friends, while trying to make sure other friends made if off alive.

Crymson says: Those who are suddenly claiming that some pre-existing friendship between we and any of our opponents in this war is behind any our actions are inventing information for their own devices.

terveis says: Where did i say that Echelon/others they attacked were friends with them?

Crymson says: I believe you misunderstood my post; I referred only to those alliances with whom we were militarily engaged, not to all alliances on the Hegemony side.

Now put two and two together. TOP has friends on both sides of the war, they chose to be with the friends winning the war, whilst at the same time ensuring their other friends "made it off alive". Nobody was going to be forced to disband and that was never brought up in any of the discussions. So what this means is that by "making it off alive" he means getting off with light terms and such was proven to be true. Even, or as per the admission, especially in the case with Hegemony alliances they were not at war with.

If that was the extent of their involvement how is that not an act of sabotage? Again this is not what I'm saying it's what their saying.

[enderland]

There is no need, I find what Archon did to be quite brilliant.

Of course you do and I am quite alright with that.

So, feel free to enlighten me about what Archon did (other than inform TORN that NPO had attempted to peace out of the war prior to communicating with TORN).

[Aurion]

How come this doesn't apply to TOP?

If we're going to play this lovely forum game, it's most probably because TOP members made a point out of being offended when Rok did the same.

Though I can't blame them, everyone cares more when it's their ox being gored.

E: If you'll pardon the metaphor.

Edited May 31, 2009 by Aurion

[President Obama]

If that was the extent of their involvement how is that not an act of sabotage? Again this is not what I'm saying it's what their saying.

If you believe that is the case why not use the charge against FCC and The Gremlins as they helped push for a quick peace for the Old Guard(a Citadel treaty partner)?

I see nothing wrong with if TOP has friends on both sides of the conflict trying to help get their friends on the other side an easier path to peace. In fact, it is a reasonable thing for them to do if they did so.

Edited May 31, 2009 by President Obama

[Nizzle]

If we're going to play this lovely forum game, it's most probably because TOP members made a point out of being offended when Rok did the same.

Though I can't blame them, everyone cares more when it's their ox being gored.

E: If you'll pardon the metaphor.

Are you seriously comparing the ::tinfoil:: thread and this one?

[terveis]

I assure you this was not conjecture on my part and was taken directly from what Terveis and Crymson said.

terveis says: Why is it so hard to grasp, that they had FRIENDS on both sides, they chose to be with other friends, while trying to make sure other friends made if off alive.

Crymson says: Those who are suddenly claiming that some pre-existing friendship between we and any of our opponents in this war is behind any our actions are inventing information for their own devices.

terveis says: Where did i say that Echelon/others they attacked were friends with them?

Crymson says: I believe you misunderstood my post; I referred only to those alliances with whom we were militarily engaged, not to all alliances on the Hegemony side.

Now put two and two together. TOP has friends on both sides of the war, they chose to be with the friends winning the war, whilst at the same time ensuring their other friends "made it off alive". Nobody was going to be forced to disband and that was never brought up in any of the discussions. So what this means is that by "making it off alive" he means getting off with light terms and such was proven to be true. Even, or as per the admission, especially in the case with Hegemony alliances they were not at war with.

If that was the extent of their involvement how is that not an act of sabotage? Again this is not what I'm saying it's what their saying.

You must be joking right? I honestly dont know what to say anymore. If you dont get my point from previous posts, i doubt there is any way i can make it any more clearer. Good luck to you in your future endeavours.

edit:

If you believe that is the case why not use the charge against FCC and The Gremlins as they helped push for a quick peace for the Old Guard(a Citadel treaty partner)?

I see nothing wrong with if TOP has friends on both sides of the conflict trying to help get their friends on the other side an easier path to peace. In fact, it is a reasonable thing for them to do.

That is what i was going for the entire time.

Edited May 31, 2009 by terveis

[HeinousOne]

So, feel free to enlighten me about what Archon did (other than inform TORN that NPO had attempted to peace out of the war prior to communicating with TORN).

Well, it would appear it was simply NPO stating it would be willing to discuss peace due to how some things were screwed up with discussions. That was then taken and presented as if NPO was already discussing peace terms. Bigwoody believes such and flips out thus going around and telling everyone that NPO betrayed them by trying to peace out without talking to TORN. Everyone thinks its their chance to separate from NPO with good PR. That didn't go so well did it?

Besides, this is not the time nor the place. This thread is the story about how two previous allies of IRON want them to be in good shape because IRON wasn't really supposed to be fighting against them in this war but thanks to the leader of another orange alliance, things got pushed forward too quickly. You can always try and find me on IRC (not there much) or you can just continue to claim I do not know what I am talking about. I am fine with either.

[Blacky]

If you believe that is the case why not use the charge against FCC and The Gremlins as they helped push for a quick peace for the Old Guard(a Citadel treaty partner)?

I answered that earlier.

Blacky: Not in the least considering FCC's involvement in the war effort and Karma as a whole was clear. There were no secret agendas to get off their friends lightly.

I see nothing wrong with if TOP has friends on both sides of the conflict trying to help get their friends on the other side an easier path to peace.

I don't know, If TOP said prior to joining the war along with "Not Karma!" that they were going to ensure their friends in Hegemony got off lightly and without a full dosage of their own medicine we would rather they not join at all. Like I said it's sabotage, albeit without malice. I can't say the same for this latest move though to paint the alliances they fought alongside as villains.

Edited May 31, 2009 by Blacky

[Aurion]

Are you seriously comparing the ::tinfoil:: thread and this one?

I don't really see how it's tinfoil considering Rok was indeed repeatedly being called out on the forums about the issue stated in the OP of that thread, but whatever floats your boat I guess.

[Nizzle]

I don't really see how it's tinfoil considering Rok was indeed repeatedly being called out on the forums about the issue stated in the OP of that thread, but whatever floats your boat I guess.

Tinfoil was a poor word to use.

The difference being: This thread called for clarification as to why they left and granted white peace. RoK's OP did not need to be the way it was, which was later admitted to by RoK.

[Aurion]

Tinfoil was a poor word to use.

The difference being: This thread called for clarification as to why they left and granted white peace. RoK's OP did not need to be the way it was, which was later admitted to by RoK.

Point conceded, heh.

Especially considering I'm not offended in the least by this thread.

[neneko]

Same question right back at the alliances crying foul. Why can they not keep anything negative private?

Because they were called out in the OP? That's bound to bring out a few members standing up for their alliance. Difference being of course that the posts from people in this thread is from various members of these alliances while the OP is a official statement by TOP and TSO.