Attention "The Phoenix Federation"

[neneko]

I'll repeat, once you convince your allies in TOP/Grämlins to send their 40,000 tech back to NpO, I'll be happy to send back every unit of Tech IRAN got from the same war.

That wasn't part of the deal. You said I should call them out on it you'd send it back.

I have no power to force anyone to repay anything but TOP and grämlins have not tried to blame anyone else for their mistake while trying to maintain a false stance of not supporting the extortion. If you truly did not support the extortion you should repay the tech you stole.

Same goes for TOP and grämlins too of course (although grämlins should get paid for the tech just as they paid for it). I'd be really happy if they did repay it but even if they don't it doesn't mean IRANs crimes disappear.

You gave me a great idea though. Every alliance should have a temporary dictator in the gov that they can put in charge when they want to commit any war crimes. That way the real leadership would always be completely innocent.

[Denial]

Also, I thought the point of Karma was to give alliances a chance to go free and make out a new life post hegemony, or does that only apply to the alliances factions of Karma wants as allies later on?

Incorrect. Point me in the direction of an official Karma statement, or statements by government members of Karma constituents, where it was declared the point of Karma was to provide alliances with a "chance to go free". Again, I must ask you to read over what you type. Read it aloud to yourself, if you must. Are you aware how silly it sounds to say that Karma, a coalition assembled to check and reject aggression, should allow every alliance to go free? No, the point of Karma was the defense of Ordo Verde, the defense of friends and allies as the war escalated, and through surrender terms that reconcile justice with fairness, facilitate positive change throughout the Cyberverse. A fact that has been repeated ad nauseum, but just does not seem to stick with you Hegemonists, is that there is a great deal of space between "white peace" and "Hegemony-style harsh terms". It does not have to be one or the other.

You're beginning to believe your own side's propaganda, which is rather unfortunate.

[Rush Sykes]

I wasnt asked to show instances were Karma was united behind abuses. They dont exist, but some parts of the grouping did behave contrary to what the majority wanted.

The argument that people cant be forced out of the game was countered by you can make it so they are severly restricted. I will adapt that Karma argument for this.

Its not on the OWF and I wont name names. You can chose to believe me or not on this.

Staying silent in these threads or allowing posts that are absolutely against what an alliance stands for wasn't as good as approval but without some clear disapproval it appeared to some on the H side it was acceptable to some of Karma at least due to the sheer volume of people calling for them

We were treated quite well in relation to terms by most of the alliances at war with us.

@Tyga: Im not going off to dig through every thread of the last month for quotes etc. If you really believe there has been no abuses on the Karma side then you will not be convinced. Some of your own side have given out about the behavior of some on your side.

Do people STILL not get that Karma has no structure? No Central Government. No Forums. No established guidelines. All we have is a collective desire to end the hegemony and put an end to the practice of 300 Million NS vs 50 Million NS wars. Will these be achieved? Who knows...Probably not. But you simply cannot put a blanket judgement on that which does not fit under any blanket.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Rush Sykes

[Nintenderek]

I didn't like it either, but again, it's ok when you do it, because they did it first is what logic you're using.

Nobody is insulting them because they are in peace mode. They are being insulted because they are hypocrites because they are in peace mode. There is a difference. As I've stated, too many times did they insult people for using peace mode, and now they are using it. I don't know about you, but that speaks loudly to me about their hypocrisy.

[Tygaland]

I'll repeat, once you convince your allies in TOP/Grämlins to send their 40,000 tech back to NpO, I'll be happy to send back every unit of Tech IRAN got from the same war.

If you truly were a man of your convictions then repaying the reps your alliance took would not be conditional on other alliances doing so.

Not that I want the STA to be party of you trying to buy TPF more lenient terms. But just pointing that out.

[Mogar]

I think Planet Bob would be a much better place if everyone thought like that.

I agree, this war has at least started it, perhaps in time the rest of the cyberverse will realize it's the most honorable way to end a conflict.

Ah, so now it is conditional on everyone else on your side in that war following suit! NpO did get harsher terms than we did, I've never said otherwise.

Can you tell me why those top NpO nations had to send out so much tech? Was it anything to do with punishment for being in...peace mode by any chance?

I have no idea why those top NpO nations had to send out so much tech, looking at it from a military perspective it would cripple Polaris for quite some time after the war, since their upper tiers would be punching bags to just about anyone in range of them, so it would prevent them from being a threat to the alliances they were at war with for quite a large amount of time, though if it did have something to do with being in peace mode I would find that to be hilariously ironic.

You're the one that claim you in no way support that IRAN recived tech and blame it all on previous leaders. If this is true all you need to do is ship the tech back and don't worry I can manage the transactions. I love to help.

If you mean I should call out OG, TOP and grämlins for reciving reps in that war I think I've done that quite alot. Although I think grämlins deserve some credit for paying for the tech I've been pretty vocal about my feelings on that extrortion both against my allies and others.

Anyway I'm ready to coordinate your repayments to STA any time. Since both of you are out of the war I think we can get started right away.

It IS the old leaders responsibility, since no one who is currently in government in IRAN was in government then, I don't really think we should be held accountable for the actions of those we replaced, if we are than the War of the Coalition was a legit war, since that was NpO getting beat down for Sponges actions, and I'm waiting for those on your side that you're allied to to start the cycle of paying back reps from that war, if they do then I'll be happy to as well. Grämlins did pay for their tech, TOP did not, and I just listed the alliances from Citadel that were in the hegemony, OG shouldn't have been part of that group, and you're correct I was arguing two different points, it gets difficult when you have to argue with 3 or 4 people at the same time.

[Rush Sykes]

I agree, this war has at least started it, perhaps in time the rest of the cyberverse will realize it's the most honorable way to end a conflict.

I have no idea why those top NpO nations had to send out so much tech, looking at it from a military perspective it would cripple Polaris for quite some time after the war, since their upper tiers would be punching bags to just about anyone in range of them, so it would prevent them from being a threat to the alliances they were at war with for quite a large amount of time, though if it did have something to do with being in peace mode I would find that to be hilariously ironic.

It IS the old leaders responsibility, since no one who is currently in government in IRAN was in government then, I don't really think we should be held accountable for the actions of those we replaced, if we are than the War of the Coalition was a legit war, since that was NpO getting beat down for Sponges actions, and I'm waiting for those on your side that you're allied to to start the cycle of paying back reps from that war, if they do then I'll be happy to as well. Grämlins did pay for their tech, TOP did not, and I just listed the alliances from Citadel that were in the hegemony, OG shouldn't have been part of that group, and you're correct I was arguing two different points, it gets difficult when you have to argue with 3 or 4 people at the same time.

Im pretty sure Grub felt that exact same way. What did that get him again?

[Tygaland]

I have no idea why those top NpO nations had to send out so much tech, looking at it from a military perspective it would cripple Polaris for quite some time after the war, since their upper tiers would be punching bags to just about anyone in range of them, so it would prevent them from being a threat to the alliances they were at war with for quite a large amount of time, though if it did have something to do with being in peace mode I would find that to be hilariously ironic.

My question actually told you the answer. They were made to pay the bulk of tech reps because they were bankers in peace mode for all or the majority of the conflict. It ws their extra punishment for using peace mode.

What is hilariously ironic is that some of those alliances that enforced and approved of those terms are now using the same tactics that apparently warranted such harsh punishment. And here you are crying about people pointing out that hypocrisy.

[neneko]

I wasnt asked to show instances were Karma was united behind abuses. They dont exist, but some parts of the grouping did behave contrary to what the majority wanted.

I completely fail to see how this proves anything you're claiming. On the contrary it shows that a majority of karma supports the ideals karma claimed to do.

The argument that people cant be forced out of the game was countered by you can make it so they are severly restricted. I will adapt that Karma argument for this.

People can be forced out of them game. These alliances however were not. They were barely in the war for a week before disbanding. That's not being forced.

Its not on the OWF and I wont name names. You can chose to believe me or not on this.

I'm gonna go with not trusting your word here. Enjoy listening to hegemony rumors though.

Staying silent in these threads or allowing posts that are absolutely against what an alliance stands for wasn't as good as approval but without some clear disapproval it appeared to some on the H side it was acceptable to some of Karma at least due to the sheer volume of people calling for them

Contrary to popular belief karma is not rule by a benevolent dictator. All nations fighting for the karma side is allowed to have teir own opinions. If this proves we're evil I suppose we are.

We were treated quite well in relation to terms by most of the alliances at war with us.

Quite well? You got white peace. It's hard to get better terms. I'm still waiting for you to admit you were wrong wich you promised to do at the start of this war if karma started giving out white peace. you're clearly upset that 'the evil karma' took away your precious infras but your accusations are baseless and just make you look silly.

[cowen70]

Nobody is insulting them because they are in peace mode. They are being insulted because they are hypocrites because they are in peace mode. There is a difference. As I've stated, too many times did they insult people for using peace mode, and now they are using it. I don't know about you, but that speaks loudly to me about their hypocrisy.

Yes that is a most worthy but most frequently misunderstood point.

[youwish959]

Mogar and Tyga, you guys are both getting ridiculous. Stop.

Edited May 17, 2009 by youwish959

[Mogar]

And I will repeat, when TOP/Gramlins lose a war and they or their protectorates come here bawwwwwwwing that they should get white peace or else the victors are just like what they fight against, then I will tell them. Im pretty sure you wouldnt find a SINGLE TOP or Gramlins member that would say if, God Forbid, they DID lose a war, there should be no terms imposed on them.

I'm giving out my opinion, I don't believe that has anything to do with anything you just said, I'm not bawwwing, I'm attempting to get Karma to actually change the one part of cybernations I hate the most.

That wasn't part of the deal. You said I should call them out on it you'd send it back.

I have no power to force anyone to repay anything but TOP and grämlins have not tried to blame anyone else for their mistake while trying to maintain a false stance of not supporting the extortion. If you truly did not support the extortion you should repay the tech you stole.

Same goes for TOP and grämlins too of course (although grämlins should get paid for the tech just as they paid for it). I'd be really happy if they did repay it but even if they don't it doesn't mean IRANs crimes disappear.

You gave me a great idea though. Every alliance should have a temporary dictator in the gov that they can put in charge when they want to commit any war crimes. That way the real leadership would always be completely innocent.

I actually have to say that's a more honorable view on this than most of the people I've discussed this with, most people turn a blind eye to those sins, you at least admit they made them, and that idea you have sounds very interesting, I may have to add something like that to our new charter.

A fact that has been repeated ad nauseum, but just does not seem to stick with you Hegemonists, is that there is a great deal of space between "white peace" and "Hegemony-style harsh terms". It does not have to be one or the other.

The part you're missing out on, is I dont want anything but white peace, period, this is my personal opinion and what IRAN would give to any alliance we were at war with if we were on the winning side, as I said before, I don't want the kid I just beat the crap out of to buy me new shoes because he got his blood all over them, I already kicked the crap out of him, I don't need him to buy me something on top of it.

If you truly were a man of your convictions then repaying the reps your alliance took would not be conditional on other alliances doing so.

Not that I want the STA to be party of you trying to buy TPF more lenient terms. But just pointing that out.

You're not at war with TPF anyway, so it'd just be me spending money I don't have to make you happy, and not getting TPF anything out of the deal, and it's conditional because I want to see others actually atone for their actions, not just me atoning for Batallion's sins, but out of curiosity, how much tech did IRAN(and only IRAN) get out of you? I'm doubting it's that much and actually might consider paying it back to you.

[neneko]

When TOP, Grämlins and the rest who also took tech reparations in that war pay back their reps to Polaris, I'll be happy to, they got harsher terms than even your alliance did, since I don't recall your terms forcing your top 25 to screw over their nations for the rest of the time their nations exist(sending out every unit of tech from their top 25? I'm only at 2300 tech and I would hate to have to waste the amount of time it'd take to send all of that out and then rebuy it all).

As I said before two wrongs (or more in this case) doesn't make a right. Even if nobody else repay reps it doesn't erease the fact that your alliance stole tech from STA when they were beaten down and even if you blame it on previous gov the fact that you don't want to make any ammends for it show that you don't have any big problem with it

[Haflinger]

What is hilariously ironic is that some of those alliances that enforced and approved of those terms are now using the same tactics that apparently warranted such harsh punishment. And here you are crying about people pointing out that hypocrisy.

"Enforced and approved"?

Which of the following alliances are keeping their higher nations in peace mode?

• RnR
  
• Umbrella
  
• MCXA
  
• the Grämlins
  
• Valhalla
  
• FARK
  
• FOK
  
• TOP
  

[Tygaland]

You're not at war with TPF anyway, so it'd just be me spending money I don't have to make you happy, and not getting TPF anything out of the deal, and it's conditional because I want to see others actually atone for their actions, not just me atoning for Batallion's sins, but out of curiosity, how much tech did IRAN(and only IRAN) get out of you? I'm doubting it's that much and actually might consider paying it back to you.

You were the one offering to repay reps, it wasn't my idea. Making it conditional on others doing so first kind of weakens your position as a moral warrior.

IRAN's share of the reps taken from the STA was 1000 tech and $25 million.

[Denial]

The part you're missing out on, is I dont want anything but white peace, period, this is my personal opinion and what IRAN would give to any alliance we were at war with if we were on the winning side, as I said before, I don't want the kid I just beat the crap out of to buy me new shoes because he got his blood all over them, I already kicked the crap out of him, I don't need him to buy me something on top of it.

You can crusade for white peace, world harmony, or whatever the hell else tickles your fancy, but do not put words in the mouth of Karma or the alliances within that coalition. You are being nothing but disingenuous and deceitful when you claim the point of Karma was to provide aggressors and their supporters with a "chance to go free" and Karma is therefore hypocritical and 'just as bad as we are' by not handing out white peace to every opponent. This is something I explained in the remainder of my post, which you happily deleted in your quote and failed to acknowledge, choosing instead to go off on some tangent about your personal crusade.

[Tygaland]

"Enforced and approved"?

Which of the following alliances are keeping their higher nations in peace mode?

• RnR
  
• Umbrella
  
• MCXA
  
• the Grämlins
  
• Valhalla
  
• FARK
  
• FOK
  
• TOP
  

I'm pretty sure Valhalla used peace mode heavily, not sure about MCXA but if they didn't they should have.

If any of the others complain about people calling them hypocrites for using peace mode when being beatdown, I'll be on the front line laughing at them.

[Krull]

The part you're missing out on, is I dont want anything but white peace, period, this is my personal opinion and what IRAN would give to any alliance we were at war with if we were on the winning side, as I said before, I don't want the kid I just beat the crap out of to buy me new shoes because he got his blood all over them, I already kicked the crap out of him, I don't need him to buy me something on top of it.

The part you don't seem to understand is when we say that claiming you believe in that in one paragraph and then defending TPF in the next paragraph is p ludicrous.

You seem to be trying to hold your enemies at a higher standard than your own allies.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Krull

[Haflinger]

I'm pretty sure Valhalla used peace mode heavily, not sure about MCXA but if they didn't they should have.

You would be wrong about Valhalla. In fact, if you followed their surrender thread closely, you'd see criticism levied against them for all coming out of peace mode at the same time and shooting their wad too fast.

[Tygaland]

You would be wrong about Valhalla. In fact, if you followed their surrender thread closely, you'd see criticism levied against them for all coming out of peace mode at the same time and shooting their wad too fast.

To come out of peace mode means they were in it to begin with, right?

[Krull]

You would be wrong about Valhalla. In fact, if you followed their surrender thread closely, you'd see criticism levied against them for all coming out of peace mode at the same time and shooting their wad too fast.

Yeah but you know, they were in peace mode before that, a practice they did rage at when used by their enemies.

[Denial]

To come out of peace mode means they were in it to begin with, right?

No, that's just silly, Tyga!

[Tygaland]

No, that's just silly, Tyga!

Apparently so.

[Bob Janova]

Since you keep mentioning us and the Polar war, Mogar, let me remind you that in exchange for that tech we gave Polar something like $500m in aid.

[Haflinger]

Yeah but you know, they were in peace mode before that, a practice they did rage at when used by their enemies.

I do believe they complained about people in alliances who were currently at war using peace mode (which I didn't agree with either). I've never before seen complaints levied at alliances who were at peace using peace mode.