The "I Don't Know Anymore" War

[Blacky]

It is only a success if it lasts and leaving the framework of the hegemony in place, in my opinion, is a serious error by the Karma side and one we may well pay for in the not too distant future.

With the Hegemony crushed and divided and Karma a collection of alliances with many disagreements. I fail to see how the framework for unipolarity is still in place. The only error which can come from Karma is if the now discredited and badly wounded Hegemony alliances somehow managed to regain their strength and respect. At present I see no way forward for these alliances which for the most part proved poorly in every facet of what qualifies an alliance as being successful. Their strength came from a bulk of meatshields who feared to oppose them or who foolishly thought them friends, and their respect came also from fear of being destroyed. This fear has been eliminated and it is in part why this war was possible.

I disagree with you old man, I do not see the hegemony returning. And if it dared showing it's face 'round these parts again I would be first to draw my sword in opposition.

[Orkules]

Here's a few questions -

Hasn't the old Hegemony been broken for good? Can you really see its power blocs ever recouping their former strength?

How will alliances like TOP,Gramlins, MHA or Sparta ever collude with the likes of NPO, MCXA, GGA, TPF, Valhalla etc ever again?

Who is playing to create the power vacuum?

Yes, yes, I'm not sure but they could find a way, and probably everybody.

You simply can't break a power of this size and cohesion up by beating it up a bit and then letting it go. You actually have to break it up, even if just briefly. We've hurt it sure, but we have not broken it. To say that they can't rebuild rapidly, especially with more or less no terms and huge warchests, is blatantly untrue. Once again, look at CnG and STA from the former war (I think Polar fits this bill too). And they were under some of the harshest terms this world has seen.

[Chalaskan]

BOB is divided...wasn't that the point of this war? Hell, now I am confused. Guess maybe cause powers are not decisive in your favor you feel uncomfortable.

EDIT:

This bloc was splintered before the war...as the war has proven. Saying it will return is ridiculous, especially considering the way things panned out.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Chalaskan

[Orkules]

BOB is divided...wasn't that the point of this war? Hell, now I am confused. Guess maybe cause powers are not decisive in your favor you feel uncomfortable.

We want it divided yes. We would, however, not like to be rebuilding and bickering and suddenly the former Hegemony, whom we let off with nice words and flowers, comes and destroys us while we are no longer even remotely united. That would kind of make this whole movement a failure. I guess we can't tell if this will happen for a long time, but I can certainly see the events in place that could set it in motion.

Kryievla, I really do like your posts, especially about Valhalla's feelings about this war and the future. I hope they reflect the beliefs of all of Valhalla. Once again, I beg you to prove me wrong.

[Vhalen]

Having been involved in 3 separate ''loose coalitions'' I can tell you I will never ever be involved in another one.

Well, I think quite a few saw it as "loose coalition" or "more of the same, which is intolerable," and took what they could get. I'll leave that alone, though. It's all subjective, after all.

From what I see, Karma assigned some targets and simply released the hounds to do as they wanted, with no obvious oversight. If so then you have reason #1 why I will never be a part of such nonsense, no clear agenda.

Well, I'd say the primary agenda was military victory. Secondary agendas seem to be another issue altogether. From what I've gathered, many expected this to be a much more even conflict, and probably anticipated large peace talks at some point, with quite a few major parties involved, or something along those lines.

Then we come to #2 reason why I will never be a part of such nonsense. No one is in charge. Part of the issue of this side of CN has always been no one wants to give up their sovereign rights as an alliance for the greater good, basically you are all selfish and unwilling to really sacrifice ''control'' to one or two people, but you are all perfectly happy to piss away your infra for no clear goal. Weirdos.

Though I tend to think well of your posts, Grub, I'm not sure this is a good argument. Once victory became clear, and moreso when it grew increasingly obvious, people began to express individual opinions much more publicly, and to stretch their arms and legs in the new room provided by the ruins everywhere. The bolded section, especially, I disagree with. Who determines the greater good? NPO would argue that the greater good was OV getting ganked. Evidently, one or two people disagreed.

Then we come to #3 reason, whilst there is some limited military direction of this operation (LM did an awesome job in the initial roll out), it is apparent that he does not have full line control of the military side of this war either. Everyone is an expert on war and how it should be done, so consequently you all pull in your own directions.

Given that this war was won before it really even got rolling, it is a pretty average effort really. The fact that you will be ultimately judged as being successful in the wash up seriously overrates what you did given the opportunities you were given on a plate.

Next time you want to roll half the world, and you have a spare month or two to put it together, consider what went wrong this time (and every other time) and fix it.

The fact that this war was won before it got rolling, as you put it, speaks volumes in and of itself. I suspect that, given a more even battlefield, organization would tend to grow rather than diminish. I freely admit that this is speculation, though, and I won't argue about whether some people are playing "prevent" defense (American football reference, for those who went "huh?" -- bend but don't break kind of thing, the joke being it "prevents" you from winning), because I haven't been, and don't intend to be, checking their wars. Suffice it to say that the military aspect is hardly the issue facing the side pretty much unanimously considered the victor. As always, it's politics where the confusion lies.

[Chalaskan]

We want it divided yes. We would, however, not like to be rebuilding and bickering and suddenly the former Hegemony, whom we let off with nice words and flowers, comes and destroys us while we are no longer even remotely united. That would kind of make this whole movement a failure. I guess we can't tell if this will happen for a long time, but I can certainly see the events in place that could set it in motion.

Kryievla, I really do like your posts, especially about Valhalla's feelings about this war and the future. I hope they reflect the beliefs of all of Valhalla. Once again, I beg you to prove me wrong.

Part of my point was the former Hedgemony was already fractured. Regardless of letting off nice or not, the tides have shifted, as this war has proven. It isn't even close. You think that the sides would not reform, or that NPO & Co..which is basically your Hedgemony would not face similar opposition. This is a coup, in the widest grasp of the word.

Hedgemony as defined above will not return. Now you have those looking for their friends, and those looking for power.

[AlmightyGrub]

Though I tend to think well of your posts, Grub, I'm not sure this is a good argument. Once victory became clear, and moreso when it grew increasingly obvious, people began to express individual opinions much more publicly, and to stretch their arms and legs in the new room provided by the ruins everywhere. The bolded section, especially, I disagree with. Who determines the greater good? NPO would argue that the greater good was OV getting ganked. Evidently, one or two people disagreed.

I have no issue with people having opinions, and god forbid expressing them, but without a central control, this is just a series of semi-related skirmishes rather than a direct plan of action. The time to express opinions was before it started, agree and then move forwards. Given the massive amount of time spent planning this, it is clear that this was never crystallized into a clear objective. Without leadership any mass becomes a rabble.. and that largely why this thread exists.

[Orkules]

Part of my point was the former Hedgemony was already fractured. Regardless of letting off nice or not, the tides have shifted, as this war has proven. It isn't even close. You think that the sides would not reform, or that NPO & Co..which is basically your Hedgemony would not face similar opposition. This is a coup, in the widest grasp of the word.

Hedgemony as defined above will not return. Now you have those looking for their friends, and those looking for power.

Truthfully, it remains to be see how fractured the Hegemony will be once the dust truly settles. In truth they could stay together, though likely not as tightly or well formed as they were once.

I also disagree that this coalition is incredibly likely to form again, especially in this strength. Too many divisions have been created here and it barely pulled itself together as is. Odds are shortly after this war it will fracture beyond the point of no return.

While I agree that it is unlikely that they can come back as they did, it is still possible. Is it unlikely? Yes. If it happens will it take a long time, with their rebuilding, their eliminating a portion of the former Karma and then the second portion afterwards? Yes. Am I seeing this road mostly due to my pessimistic nature, bitterness, and how many times dreams and hope have been crushed by this group just when it seemed certain it would work? Highly likely. That does not mean I'm not right. Just means that my prediction of a possible and fairly unlikely future is just that, fairly unlikely.

[mhawk]

Fear not Tyga, I'm sure the full wrath shall at least visit us

[Caliph]

lol. This "anything resembling harsh terms makes us as bad as the hegemony" attitude, will get Karma killed in the end.

I completely agree.

Anything less than harsh terms for the core of the Hegemony, which is Continuum and One Vision, will get Karma rolled in the end when the Hegemony alliances come back with a vengeance and a grudge.

Perhaps not now, but those who have been hit in this war have proven to carry a grudge for quite some time. If you don't treat them as they would treat you if the situation was reversed, you fail at Karma.

It isn't that 2 wrongs make a right, it is that they have proven to be too dangerous, to big a threat, to be allowed anything less.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Caliph

[Deuterium Dawn]

I completely disagree.

Anything less than harsh terms for the core of the Hegemony, which is Continuum and One Vision, will get Karma rolled in the end when the Hegemony alliances come back with a vengeance and a grudge.

Perhaps not now, but those who have been hit in this war have proven to carry a grudge for quite some time. If you don't treat them as they would treat you if the situation was reversed, you fail at Karma.

It isn't that 2 wrongs make a right, it is that they have proven to be too dangerous, to big a threat, to be allowed anything less.

It's 4:30 where I am, so I may be misreading this, but I think you said pretty much the same thing I did, so I'm not sure why you're quoting me.

[Caliph]

It's 4:30 where I am, so I may be misreading this, but I think you said pretty much the same thing I did, so I'm not sure why you're quoting me.

It was I who misread your post

I agree with your intent, though your phrasing and the late hour here had me misreading your post.

I have alterred my post accordingly.

[Tygaland]

Fear not Tyga, I'm sure the full wrath shall at least visit us

Haha, you may be right as you have a foe that has a very specific dislike for you. I'm not really interested in full wrath and most people seem to have missed the point of the thread entirely.

I'm not going to reply to specific posts because it is too damn hard so here are some general replies to what I have read, they are not responding to mhawk's post.

The thread was asking what this war is actually trying to achieve anymore. One side is beaten and really just biding time until peace is offered. The other is falling away as alliances decide they no longer need to be part of the Coalition and go about their own business.

As I saw it, we had a loose collection of alliances with a certain goal. Now that goal is actually achievable suddenly alliances decide they are no longer fighting for Karma but themselves and that is where I find it hard to fathom what this is all about anymore.

I couldn't care less if the power went in my favour or not. STA doesn't have treaties with enough alliances to even consider being part of the new power bloc. We aren't even in a bloc.

The fractioning of the Hegemony happened pre-war for the most part so if that was the aim then the war was not required at all and the Karma coalition would never have been formed.

However, the core of the Hegemony, NPO, IRON, Valhalla, TPF and to a lesser extent OG, NATO and MCXA, were still in place despite their little MADP cancellation thing when war broke out. As it stands, those alliances will be weakened but readily able to rebuild very quickly and the Continuum treaty remians intact.

I concede that it is unlikely these alliances will form together again as they were in the past but I believe it is negligent to leave the structure unbroken as it is now. It is inviting trouble.

And one last thing, I was never in this so we could have "even wars" in the future. I was in it to get rid of the culture of intimidation, extortion and thuggery that the Hegemony has brought upon us all over the past 18 months.

[Doitzel]

I agree with Tyga, but what can I do? I'm just an irrelevant, evil spymaster that isn't worth the PR risk.

Sure, hijack our ideas, lock us in the dungeon, make some promises to shut us up then bastardise all we stand for in the name of political expediency. Karma makes me glad on a daily basis that I was right to think you're all incapable of learning from mistakes of the past. This community has failed me, completely and utterly, by falling victim again to the most mindless of propaganda tactics.

But hey, don't listen to me. After all Vox is just here to create a new hegemony! Look at us go, baby!

[jer]

It is only a success if it lasts and leaving the framework of the hegemony in place, in my opinion, is a serious error by the Karma side and one we may well pay for in the not too distant future.

As you say, it is only a success if it lasts and we cannot pass judgement on the methods of Karma so soon. I can understand your concerns about the Hegemony, but you need to get past this fear and paranoia that says that the moment they're free they'll be oppressing us again if you want to live in a changed world. A huge chunk of the world with many diverse opinions and alliances were able to came together (yes, loosely, but it is still an amazing achievement) to knock these clowns off their perch, do you honestly believe that all these alliances would simply sit back after the war is done and get complacent as the NPO, Valhalla, TPF, OG, GGA, NATO etc. all band together for power once more? Nobody is that naive.

I take issue with the way you labelled the people in Karma who do not want to use crazy terms on anyone as succumbing to the propagandists of the Hegemony. There is a group of people in the centre of the Karma side who are of sound core principles, and they're setting those principles in stone right here, right now. After three years of crap, I can understand your scepticism, but at least give a chance for the cycle to be broken, because a great many people are tired of living in a world where all opposition is crushed beyond all recognition. Lastly, I think you and many others are putting too much stock in 'Karma' - please don't judge a bloc by it's name! If you insist upon pigeon-holing characteristics of groups for ease of identity and reference, at least base those characteristics on what the bloc actually does, and not some dictionary definition that you've been pinning your hopes on.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Aimee Mann

[JoshuaR]

...

From my perspective this war is everything i wanted to happen really and i think it achieved it's purpose - it broke the treaty web into pieces and created a power vacuum large enough to give many alliances opportunity for growth, FA wise and not only. Because the main fault of the political world of before this war wasn't that X or Y were giving out harsh terms, it was that everyone pretty much had to agree with them and there wasn't much freedom of choice, only the option of agreeing with a majority that lacked any sort of competition. I think it was counter-productive in all aspects, maybe less so for the people who were throwing others' weight around (though it still affected them indirectly since CN itself was, at least imo negatively influenced by this).

...

I really think people are putting too much weight on the importance on some "light" reps as terms as punishment here. It mostly affects the post-war period negatively since it's likely it will put some grudges between some alliances now leaving others that are now at war enough space to climb the ladder again, and i really don't think an extra ~5k tech asked in reps is worth this much.

But meh, people will hold on to grudges if they feel like it i guess. :shrug:

^Tyga, this is basically how I see this war in history.

Yes, it seems some alliances are getting off lightly, but what is the alternative?

10k tech reps? What does that do? Nothing. Look how strong Polar is already.

Canceled treaties? Most are suspended already. And NPO, for one, will not be re-aligning to many of these alliances.

Leaders forced out of government? Who can you name specifically that deserves this?

What would you have done, Tyga? Specifically, what terms would you have given Valhalla, and how would they have been better than those actually given? Please list specifics rather than note you would have given them middle-of-the-road terms.

--

As for Karma as a whole, of course they are not a cohesive group bent on destroying certain powers. They are fighters - for justice, for allies, for themselves, or for retribution. Should they have been a united group, seeking to unseat the powers that be, dismantling them permanently? As uaciaut already said, this is accomplished even without peace terms. The NPO won't be going back to all of these people, especially after believing most to have abandoned them. Valhalla won't go back to its old ways, for it won't have the backing. The Hegemony won't attempt to reform as it was; if it does, alliances will recognize it for what it is and crush it.

There is now not quite a vacuum, but perhaps a level playing field. One group does not dictate anything (thank Admin there isn't a Karma command dictating exactly how peace terms shall go). Alliances will be free to speak. Alliances will be free not to conform to the Bobian norm, keeping voices silent while alliances are forced to disband, watching alliances suffer eternal warfare, unjustly punishing nations beyond the the scope of the game, free to make fun of the GGA without fear of retribution though granted that started before the war, free to speak up, to act up, and even to try to be the one up on top.

Now, as for the chance that some of these beat-down guys will rise again. Good.

[Chalaskan]

MHawks, and Tygas post reveal the purpose of this thread. Regardless of a specific retort or not, we have the same conclusion. Karma was and never will be a bloc. It was a collusion of circumstance. Let it be what it is, and take us from there.

[Doitzel]

As you say, it is only a success if it lasts and we cannot pass judgement on the methods of Karma so soon. I can understand your concerns about the Hegemony, but you need to get past this fear and paranoia that says that the moment they're free they'll be oppressing us again if you want to live in a changed world. A huge chunk of the world with many diverse opinions and alliances were able to came together (yes, loosely, but it is still an amazing achievement) to knock these clowns off their perch, do you honestly believe that all these alliances would simply sit back after the war is done and get complacent as the NPO, Valhalla, TPF, OG, GGA, NATO etc. all band together for power once more? Nobody is that naive.

Hello, I am the ghost of Christmas past.

The answer is absolutely "yes".

[SynthFG]

Look at the state the core is in

TPF, Val and GGA are all smashed and won't be rebuilding large enough to threaten anybody, anytime soon

GGA and MCXA were both a shambles before this war started, the'll find it very difficult to hold onto members, let alone grow, afterwards, Despite gaining peace, MCXA is still hemoraging members and NS

IRON have seen there top nations devistated and have lost more than half of there pre war NS, they are rapidly falling down the sanction rankings, and if things go for another week or so may loose sanction alltogether.

NPO is only holding its strength by importing members, wether from surrendering alliances or off site forums it doesn't matter, again bar the nations rotting in peace mode they have been devistated, lost massive NS, with other fronts clsoing down the alliances facing them now have even greater scope to rotate nations, something NPO cannot do, some of there nations are now comming up on a 4th round of war, with no end in site.

[Orkules]

I agree with Tyga, but what can I do? I'm just an irrelevant, evil spymaster that isn't worth the PR risk.

Sure, hijack our ideas, lock us in the dungeon, make some promises to shut us up then bastardise all we stand for in the name of political expediency. Karma makes me glad on a daily basis that I was right to think you're all incapable of learning from mistakes of the past. This community has failed me, completely and utterly, by falling victim again to the most mindless of propaganda tactics.

But hey, don't listen to me. After all Vox is just here to create a new hegemony! Look at us go, baby!

People are inevitably short sighted while simultaneously believing that short sightedness is in fact long sightedness. I hoped we would keep to the goals we all seemed to believe in at first (end of crippling terms and bullying, a bit more balance, and retribution for the wrongs the Hegemony has inflicted upon us along with the break up of their power base) but it seems that (once again) my hopes have failed in reality. And people wonder why I'm so bitter about this game sometimes.

[Cataduanes]

Hello, I am the ghost of Christmas past.

The answer is absolutely "yes".

Doitzel hits the nail on the head once again, i see history repeating itself and like GW1 the talk of idealism and belief in enemies changing their ways is something painfully familiar to me, i can remember being fed that line by my leaders in ODN at the time

[jer]

Hello, I am the ghost of Christmas past.

The answer is absolutely "yes".

I'm all for learning from the mistakes of the past, but we are living in a different world now with different people sitting in positions of power. I am more than willing to give them their chance to change the way the world operates because I have become so fed up of the 'we must crush all opposition' mentality that's prevailed over the last few years, and if it fails and the NPO and co. band together again, then I guess another smackdown will be in order. If that happens I certainly will not begrudge you for sitting on a high horse and saying 'I told you so' over and over, hopefully you would not begrudge me doing the same if we get a more exciting, more competitive and above all more good-natured CN in the future because of the foresight of those leading the Karma coalition right now.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Aimee Mann

[Chalaskan]

Look at the state the core is in

TPF, Val and GGA are all smashed and won't be rebuilding large enough to threaten anybody, anytime soon

GGA and MCXA were both a shambles before this war started, the'll find it very difficult to hold onto members, let alone grow, afterwards, Despite gaining peace, MCXA is still hemoraging members and NS

IRON have seen there top nations devistated and have lost more than half of there pre war NS, they are rapidly falling down the sanction rankings, and if things go for another week or so may loose sanction alltogether.

NPO is only holding its strength by importing members, wether from surrendering alliances or off site forums it doesn't matter, again bar the nations rotting in peace mode they have been devistated, lost massive NS, with other fronts clsoing down the alliances facing them now have even greater scope to rotate nations, something NPO cannot do, some of there nations are now comming up on a 4th round of war, with no end in site.

You forgot the exit of those much before the war. That was/is the key analysis.

With that said, IRON has been honorable, and regardless of stats, was and is a formidable opponent. They should be granted peace; should they seek it.

[jer]

Doitzel hits the nail on the head once again, i see history repeating itself and like GW1 the talk of idealism and belief in enemies changing their ways is something painfully familiar to me, i can remember being fed that line by my leaders in ODN at the time

You sound like you liked the prospect of new ideals and beliefs back then, so why not now? Give them a chance and don't let what happened after GW1 hinder the prospect of a new world forever.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Aimee Mann

[R&R-Viking]

I'm all for learning from the mistakes of the past, but we are living in a different world now with different people sitting in positions of power.

They aren't, really.

I am more than willing to give them their chance to change the way the world operates because I have become so fed up of the 'we must crush all opposition' mentality that's prevailed over the last few years, and if it fails and the NPO and co. band together again, then I guess another smackdown will be in order. If that happens I certainly will not begrudge you for sitting on a high horse and saying 'I told you so' over and over, hopefully you would not begrudge me doing the same if we get a more exciting, more competitive and above all more good-natured CN in the future because of the foresight of those leading the Karma coalition right now.

If this falls flat on its face and the Hegemony comes back, count me out. I'm sure others feel the same way. I've fought against them 3 times, I've seen the same mistakes made by this side over and over, and I'm tired of this side lacking the backbone to finish what it starts. Hopefully others feel like me, and when this war picks up where it leaves off, hopefully you get to fight them like we used to, against all odds with no help. Then you get gigantic reps levied against you.

THAT's when I'll sit back and say "I told you so".