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You forced us to disband!!


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IC: I didn't have a say in the matter. Anyone who feels that \m/ shouldn't have been disbanded should go send nukes at Virillius for being a coward in the face of the enemy.

Come on Margrave. Although I agree on that Virillus' actions probably sped up \m/'s disbandment, you can hardly place all of the weight of the blame on him. After all, if a significant amount of the membership was bent on staying together, then the alliance wouldn't have fallen apart like it did.

And that was one of the main issues, mate - loyalty for \m/ wasn't high amongst most members. The alliance had grown exponentially, but most of the boom had taken place in the last two to four months, allowing only some of those newcomers to cement their faith and identity into the name. A significant portion of the membership hailing from older times (>_<, CIA, etc. etc.) were quite so inactive, and others, completely gone from the game (banned member and Liberal Extinction, principally). Thus, when the going got rough, there were few people around to maintain morale, cheer up, assert "alliance values" (or whatever you want to call those), or to actually grant members a clear direction - confusion, lack of clarity and sense of isolation is what led quite a few \m/embers to surrender prior to the ceasefire.

I will also partially agree with the public consensus that we've had some members joining who were little more interested than looking beyond their own nose (aside from looking for targets to raid, of course) and wanted a safe home so they could maintain their bullying vice. However, there were some folks who seemed to act "tough-guy" on the boards, but were caring, efficient \m/embers at home, having in their hearts camaraderie and the desire to improve the alliance.

Turning back towards the opening post, I must agree on literal terms that one cannot be forced to disband his alliance at all. Some alliances, when faced with overwhelming odds and a typical Brazilian road ahead, refused to put their arms down (or at least to run) and maintained their bonds. Cases such as FAN's and GATO's prove that defiance, steadfastness and friendship CAN overcome odds. Others, however, faltered and crumbled in the face of vastly inferior firepower - and \m/ was one of them.

I will point out, that one can also easily induce and facilitate disbandment - as Sponge himself did with \m/. I cannot, though, dub him as an "evil" or "hater", or even blame him at all for the scattering of my old alliance - after all, the decision ultimately laid with the Triumvirate and the \m/embership. The offer of unacceptable terms showed whether if the alliance was willing to endure the harshest situations in order to maintain its members and identity, and maybe have a hope for more acceptable terms or disband - nations in rubble yet still stick around, talk with each others, have an alliance to care for, etc. - or raise the arms in the air and give up? Given that the unanimous Tri decision was made to disband a little more than a week into the war, and there clearly were not enough members protesting the decision, \m/ in general was not willing to be in Hell and keep going, but rather just succumbing to the burning flames around it.

Thus, there we are. My conclusion is that although externalities may assist in an alliance's decision to disband, the main factor is most definitively how loyal its members are, and how well-bonded with each other they are (thus, the willingness to stick together in the worse case scenarios).

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Tygaland, I think it's quite obvious. Just use your internet search for the direct quote in my post from ES. I am positive you will find enough evidence.

Sponge was not in the STA and the STA was not in WUT. Your point is?

I will begin to scan in the certified letters sent from Tygaland and Electron Sponge ordering all members of Genmay to leave their AA. It will be completed shortly.

I shall pick up this banner and carry it high! Remember, remember, the fifth of January the second!

Hey, you made up the story, don't get pissy with me when asked to prove it.

fakeedit: Seriously, just give it up. I said you were a willing participant who stood by and did nothing. I woefully mispoke in the originally post, and clarified it. However, in true Tygaland-Nizzle fashion you just ran with it in one form or another.

You never retracted your original accusation and instead repeated it. STA's only role in that was was defending NpO's protectorate from Genmay's attack. We were not involved in any WUT terms as we were not in WUT and had peaced you out before hand.

This topic can be discussed all day long. Some view disbandment as the fault of alliance leaders, some view disbandment as a means to fight another way, some view disbandment as a choice that is made in lieu of accepting certain surrender terms. I am of one opinion, you are of another. The intent, which was horribly disarmed by your professional debating abilities, was to display that several alliances who are screaming for hard reps have indeed been party to harsh reps before. It's a convenience of the current situation that all of that can be forgotten.

Do enjoy.

Where has the STA been party to harsh reps? You keep making accusations but again no proof. Evidence please or retract your lies and apologise.

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This is good. I thought it would have been obvious that the first part of my post was not serious in any fashion.

My original statement was incorrect. I clarified, in a post you quoted and disregarded out of rage, that you were an accessory to the situation. "You participated...watched it happen...never did anything to stop it." So far as that goes, and the harsh terms, I await the moment you state that you were not an ally of NpO. After all, as has been established, that is the rubric to determine guilt as displayed by the ranting and raving of Karma. If you were there, and you didn't do anything, you were wrong.

That's all I am going to say on this, Tyga. I will only admit error for the initial post, but you and Sponge ran away with the rest of it. Sometimes people just don't see eye to eye.

edit: Incidentally, the clarifying post was used by Sponge to prove I said you forced Genmay to disband all by yourself.

Edited by Nizzle
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Question: Do Legion and GATO count as alliances that have survived in the face of diversity, or should they have disbanded? Just curious about what people think. People have hated them longer than FAN or Vox.

Also, while I agree with the general sentiment of OP, saying Genmay started the Unjust War is a debatable point. BotS certainly had something to do with it (presumably with Sponge's blessing). Genmay and GOONS didn't so much start the war as much as they got suckered into it. If Moo Cows were as smart as Sponge (or if Karma were dumb enough to get aggressive too quickly), someone on the Hegemony side would have figured out a way to start this war a month and a half ago, before the Karma coalition was ready. Too bad for NPO, the lessons of the past weren't heeded... at least by NPO.

Huh...Heheh.

He needed someone else to suggest the idea a year ago, and it was still ignored. :lol1:

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This is good. I thought it would have been obvious that the first part of my post was not serious in any fashion.

My original statement was incorrect. I clarified, in a post you quoted and disregarded out of rage, that you were an accessory to the situation. "You participated...watched it happen...never did anything to stop it." So far as that goes, and the harsh terms, I await the moment you state that you were not an ally of NpO. After all, as has been established, that is the rubric to determine guilt as displayed by the ranting and raving of Karma. If you were there, and you didn't do anything, you were wrong.

That's all I am going to say on this, Tyga. I will only admit error for the initial post, but you and Sponge ran away with the rest of it. Sometimes people just don't see eye to eye.

edit: Incidentally, the clarifying post was used by Sponge to prove I said you forced Genmay to disband all by yourself.

How was STA, as a non-member of ~ an accessory to Genmay's disbandment? You are also free to take into account other former-Genmay members who have agreed with Sponge that Genmay did not disband because of external pressures but because of internal ones.

STA were an accessory to no such thing. Genmay started the war, the STA defended her allies and asked for no reps at all.

If you want to claim that is an accessory to your disbandment, I cannot stop you. If you would like to provide evidence of your other accusation regarding the STA handing out harsh reparations in war, be my guest. If you do not provide any I'll take it you concede that point also.

EDIT: apparently the bloc I'm referring to was ~ and not WUT. I lose track of all the rebranding.

Edited by Tygaland
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Based on Tyga's record, I find it hard to believe that he had anything to do with Gen[m]ay's terms. I find it most likely that Sponge's terms were never discussed with Tyga, likely knowing that he would never agree with them.

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How was STA, as a non-member of WUT an accessory to Genmay's disbandment? You are also free to take into account other former-Genmay members who have agreed with Sponge that Genmay did not disband because of external pressures but because of internal ones.

STA were an accessory to no such thing. Genmay started the war, the STA defended her allies and asked for no reps at all.

If you want to claim that is an accessory to your disbandment, I cannot stop you. If you would like to provide evidence of your other accusation regarding the STA handing out harsh reparations in war, be my guest. If you do not provide any I'll take it you concede that point also.

I'll concede that I dislike arguing the same point over and over again. Thanks Tyga, it's been fun. Don't get so mad next time.

SPOILER

I wasn't in Genmay when they disbanded.

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Based on Tyga's record, I find it hard to believe that he had anything to do with Gen[m]ay's terms. I find it most likely that Sponge's terms were never discussed with Tyga, likely knowing that he would never agree with them.

To be honest, based on his record I would have never expected the positions supported in the Valhalla surrender thread. C'est le vie.

SPOILER

I don't speak French.

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Hold on a second here. How is it that Hegemony can be blamed for disbanding alliances without anyone batting an eye over up, but when When Former-Thug-Turned-Darling-of-Karma points out that it takes the disbanded to disband themselves, it draws mindless hails?

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I'll concede that I dislike arguing the same point over and over again. Thanks Tyga, it's been fun. Don't get so mad next time.

SPOILER

I wasn't in Genmay when they disbanded.

You made up the stories, don't blame me when you cannot provide any proof to support them. I didn't force you to try and smear my alliance with lies and innuendo, you made that choice yourself.

As for my views on Valhalla. They are based on the opinion that they deserve to be punished for what they have done to others and that the terms given were not reflective of the goals of Karma which was to disable the Continuum and 1V. Clearly that is now not going to happen as so many Continuum alliances are being cut easy peace deals after only a few weeks.

My biggest mistake was believing Karma has the resolve to achieve the goal they set out to achieve. Some of us learn from history, others are destined to repeat it. Now I brace my alliance for the fallout of history repeated.

But, that is not what this topic is about.

Thank you for conceding the STA did not force Genmay to disband and that the STA does not give harsh reps terms in war. At least we got somethings clarified out of all this.

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This is good. I thought it would have been obvious that the first part of my post was not serious in any fashion.

My original statement was incorrect. I clarified, in a post you quoted and disregarded out of rage, that you were an accessory to the situation. "You participated...watched it happen...never did anything to stop it." So far as that goes, and the harsh terms, I await the moment you state that you were not an ally of NpO. After all, as has been established, that is the rubric to determine guilt as displayed by the ranting and raving of Karma. If you were there, and you didn't do anything, you were wrong.

That's all I am going to say on this, Tyga. I will only admit error for the initial post, but you and Sponge ran away with the rest of it. Sometimes people just don't see eye to eye.

edit: Incidentally, the clarifying post was used by Sponge to prove I said you forced Genmay to disband all by yourself.

There is a difference though. STA gave Genmay basically white peace and ended the war. The alliances that Karma are going on about were ones who not only did nothing when NPO gave harsh terms but actively participated in it. TPF gave their own harsh terms as well as very OOC terms to NoV members since they would only allow individual surrenders to those who left NoV AA. MCXA was party to the Polaris reps and iirc gave their own secret terms to Polaris in order for it to survive. Not only that but then there was the stuff MCXA did prior to the war. I am sure there are more examples others can come up with for those alliances in 1V and Q that will also show that they are far different from STA than you are hoping to connect with your silly little accusation.

also, i again point out that you were never forced from the AA of Genmay. it is impossible to do so unless someone were to physically do it (i.e. going to your house and holding a gun to your head or even just hacking your account) but since neither of those were done, you cannot ever state you were forced from the AA of Genmay. you have absolutely no one but yourself to blame for leaving the AA of Genmay. to blame others shows that you are weak and simply seek to blame others for that which you cannot even admit to yourself. that you cared little for the AA of Genmay and chose to leave it rather than stick it out during the harshest of times.

as much as i don't trust or like FAN currently, if they could ever prove themselves to be loyal allies, i would gladly ally with them as i know they have the guts and balls to stick out anything that any alliance could throw at them and smile while doing so.

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Hold on a second here. How is it that Hegemony can be blamed for disbanding alliances without anyone batting an eye over up, but when When Former-Thug-Turned-Darling-of-Karma points out that it takes the disbanded to disband themselves, it draws mindless hails?

actually if you pay attention, Polaris is blamed for the majority of disbandments to my knowledge. Only \m/ and [m] since some of their former members continue to whine and moan about it to this day. NoR and NoV disbanding have never been blamed on anyone to my knowledge. Not sure bout GOLD or EoTRS. LUE is not even blamed on GOONS or NPO to my knowledge. i am sure there are others but the fact that i at least have a hard time remembering any other disbandment (not saying i am special or anything) except \m/ and [m] because over the last like 2 years i have had this discussion several times with former members who as i stated before just continue to whine and !@#$%* about it as if it is not their fault in the least.

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actually if you pay attention, Polaris is blamed for the majority of disbandments to my knowledge. Only \m/ and [m] since some of their former members continue to whine and moan about it to this day. NoR and NoV disbanding have never been blamed on anyone to my knowledge. Not sure bout GOLD or EoTRS. LUE is not even blamed on GOONS or NPO to my knowledge. i am sure there are others but the fact that i at least have a hard time remembering any other disbandment (not saying i am special or anything) except \m/ and [m] because over the last like 2 years i have had this discussion several times with former members who as i stated before just continue to whine and !@#$%* about it as if it is not their fault in the least.

Doch, thing is, everywhere you look, people are talking about how the Hegemony is so evil for supposedly forcing people to disband. When someone says "we never forced anyone to disband, they chose it", they get shouted down with cries of "COMMUNITY KILLERS" or something. But as soon as Sponge says you can't force an alliance to disband, everyone's like "YAH THATS RITE". Fact is, Sponge is right and wrong. You can't force anyone to disband, they have to choose it, but you can try to push them to disband. Exhibit A: What he did to \m/. I have a hard time believing that he only wanted to keep them fighting for a bit when he gave them those joke terms. If that's what he wanted, why not say "keep fighting for a while and then come talk to me and you'll get terms"?

-Bama

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Doch, thing is, everywhere you look, people are talking about how the Hegemony is so evil for supposedly forcing people to disband. When someone says "we never forced anyone to disband, they chose it", they get shouted down with cries of "COMMUNITY KILLERS" or something. But as soon as Sponge says you can't force an alliance to disband, everyone's like "YAH THATS RITE". Fact is, Sponge is right and wrong. You can't force anyone to disband, they have to choose it, but you can try to push them to disband. Exhibit A: What he did to \m/. I have a hard time believing that he only wanted to keep them fighting for a bit when he gave them those joke terms. If that's what he wanted, why not say "keep fighting for a while and then come talk to me and you'll get terms"?

-Bama

what alliances then? cuz as i stated in my post, i seriously don't remember them. i named a few but none that was blamed on the Hegemony. shoot NAAC was more Polaris than anyone else but disbanded because they wanted to and nothing more. i have always been in the crowd that no one can force any alliance to disband period. especially since the only alliance i have ever really seen that on is Polaris with \m/ and [m]. the only things i hear about LUE or NAAC or GOONS is that MK is LUE 2.0 or GR is NAAC 2.0 or GOONS were awesome and the new GOONS suck or some such. i don't hear anything about EoTRS or GOLD or ICP (though i do believe that former ICP members blame NoR/NoV though they are far from being the Hegemony) or SWF or any other alliances.

so where is all these posts about the Hegemony being called evil for forced disbandments? cuz FAN nor Vox Populi disbanded no matter how hard they tried. As for terms, as STA or NPO/NpO from GPW about how not to accept terms until they suit what you want. same with FAN, they waited years and are now getting the white peace from almost every alliance that was at war with them. just because you get bad terms does not mean that your only options are to A) accept or B) disband cuz of the meanies not giving better terms. sorry but that is false and has been proven false (i do believe FAN was still in vietFAN at the time of the UjW, maybe people should take notes or something) many times before UjW and after.

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I agree with the OP that ultimately the decision to disband a alliance must come from inside the said alliance and no outside force can make it happen. But, unlike many others I think that an outside force can be the decisive factor that led to the disbandment.

I dislike when people bring up FAN, Vox and other alliances into this kind of discussion, because I think it is a bit unfair. [ooc] It is like picking an ordinary soccer team squad, showing them a video from Brazil's national team on 1970 World Cup and saying, "they could play like that so you must play like that too"[/ooc]. FAN et al are exceptions, not the rule. You can't expect every alliance to show the degree of stubbornness, endurance and pride they showed when facing their "eternal" wars. They were/are special alliances, and they are respected exactly for that.

That being said, I believe we can at least partially blame some external power for forcing an alliance disbandment. External powers can create conditions that would torn the fabric of 90% of the alliances out there and lead to their disbandment. The problem with \m/ and [m], as I see it, is that those conditions were not even created. They started a war, they saw that they were going to get their butts kicked and they fell apart, without even trying to survive. If they have fought a few months (that we can and must expect from every alliance out there), were completely torn apart and were still receiving the same peace terms from their enemies and then have decided to disband, I could agree that some outsider played a major role on their disbandment. Since that was not the case, I cannot see any possible way to blame Sponge (besides of course him outplaying them in every field of this game) or anyone else for the said alliances' disbandment.

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what alliances then? cuz as i stated in my post, i seriously don't remember them. i named a few but none that was blamed on the Hegemony. shoot NAAC was more Polaris than anyone else but disbanded because they wanted to and nothing more. i have always been in the crowd that no one can force any alliance to disband period. especially since the only alliance i have ever really seen that on is Polaris with \m/ and [m]. the only things i hear about LUE or NAAC or GOONS is that MK is LUE 2.0 or GR is NAAC 2.0 or GOONS were awesome and the new GOONS suck or some such. i don't hear anything about EoTRS or GOLD or ICP (though i do believe that former ICP members blame NoR/NoV though they are far from being the Hegemony) or SWF or any other alliances.

so where is all these posts about the Hegemony being called evil for forced disbandments? cuz FAN nor Vox Populi disbanded no matter how hard they tried. As for terms, as STA or NPO/NpO from GPW about how not to accept terms until they suit what you want. same with FAN, they waited years and are now getting the white peace from almost every alliance that was at war with them. just because you get bad terms does not mean that your only options are to A) accept or B) disband cuz of the meanies not giving better terms. sorry but that is false and has been proven false (i do believe FAN was still in vietFAN at the time of the UjW, maybe people should take notes or something) many times before UjW and after.

I think "we" (read: anyone who was ever connected to Hegemony) get blamed for NAAC, LUE, CDS, ONOS, GOLD, NoV, GOONS, \m/, Genmay, IAA, and like ten others. There are several sigs circulating with more complete lists.

-Bama

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I think "we" (read: anyone who was ever connected to Hegemony) get blamed for NAAC, LUE, CDS, ONOS, GOLD, NoV, GOONS, \m/, Genmay, IAA, and like ten others. There are several sigs circulating with more complete lists.

-Bama

well again i point out that Polaris is the only ones blamed for \m/ and Genmay. TPF maybe for NoV but i never see it. the only ones i can now remember for Hegemony is CIS and yes IAA for NPO and VE for GGA. that is bout it. NAAC, LUE, CDS, ONOS, GOLD, GOONS and many others are never even brought up in except for those sigs. the former (or current in the case of VE) members themselves to my knowledge don't bring it up. CIS and VE to my knowledge don't bring it up anymore and most everyone i know in IAA does not bring it up either.

the only two alliances i have consistently seen former members blame anyone for the disbandment of their alliances are \m/ and [m]. and that is directed at Polaris solely. though this is a first that STA has been blamed.

in fact until this war and those sigs, i have not really heard about the other alliances and their disbandments at all really.

mostly from what i have seen Hegemony being called evil about are the incredibly harsh terms that were handed out left and right to any and most alliances regardless of any reasons. GATO, FAN, Polaris, MK, GPA, NoV, and the list grows from there.

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well again i point out that Polaris is the only ones blamed for \m/ and Genmay. TPF maybe for NoV but i never see it. the only ones i can now remember for Hegemony is CIS and yes IAA for NPO and VE for GGA. that is bout it. NAAC, LUE, CDS, ONOS, GOLD, GOONS and many others are never even brought up in except for those sigs. the former (or current in the case of VE) members themselves to my knowledge don't bring it up. CIS and VE to my knowledge don't bring it up anymore and most everyone i know in IAA does not bring it up either.

the only two alliances i have consistently seen former members blame anyone for the disbandment of their alliances are \m/ and [m]. and that is directed at Polaris solely. though this is a first that STA has been blamed.

in fact until this war and those sigs, i have not really heard about the other alliances and their disbandments at all really.

mostly from what i have seen Hegemony being called evil about are the incredibly harsh terms that were handed out left and right to any and most alliances regardless of any reasons. GATO, FAN, Polaris, MK, GPA, NoV, and the list grows from there.

Oh, it's usually not the ex-members of those alliances. It's usualy just random NPO/TPF/Q/NpO/whoever haters. But I've seen plenty of it before and during this war.

-Bama

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Oh, it's usually not the ex-members of those alliances. It's usualy just random NPO/TPF/Q/NpO/whoever haters. But I've seen plenty of it before and during this war.

-Bama

lawlz. i guess that is why. i tend not to pay attention to them. just the actual former members since their opinion actually counts. hahahaha. well at least now i know why i never saw it. :P

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Come on Margrave. Although I agree on that Virillus' actions probably sped up \m/'s disbandment, you can hardly place all of the weight of the blame on him. After all, if a significant amount of the membership was bent on staying together, then the alliance wouldn't have fallen apart like it did.

And that was one of the main issues, mate - loyalty for \m/ wasn't high amongst most members. The alliance had grown exponentially, but most of the boom had taken place in the last two to four months, allowing only some of those newcomers to cement their faith and identity into the name. A significant portion of the membership hailing from older times (>_<, CIA, etc. etc.) were quite so inactive, and others, completely gone from the game (banned member and Liberal Extinction, principally). Thus, when the going got rough, there were few people around to maintain morale, cheer up, assert "alliance values" (or whatever you want to call those), or to actually grant members a clear direction - confusion, lack of clarity and sense of isolation is what led quite a few \m/embers to surrender prior to the ceasefire.

I will also partially agree with the public consensus that we've had some members joining who were little more interested than looking beyond their own nose (aside from looking for targets to raid, of course) and wanted a safe home so they could maintain their bullying vice. However, there were some folks who seemed to act "tough-guy" on the boards, but were caring, efficient \m/embers at home, having in their hearts camaraderie and the desire to improve the alliance.

Turning back towards the opening post, I must agree on literal terms that one cannot be forced to disband his alliance at all. Some alliances, when faced with overwhelming odds and a typical Brazilian road ahead, refused to put their arms down (or at least to run) and maintained their bonds. Cases such as FAN's and GATO's prove that defiance, steadfastness and friendship CAN overcome odds. Others, however, faltered and crumbled in the face of vastly inferior firepower - and \m/ was one of them.

I will point out, that one can also easily induce and facilitate disbandment - as Sponge himself did with \m/. I cannot, though, dub him as an "evil" or "hater", or even blame him at all for the scattering of my old alliance - after all, the decision ultimately laid with the Triumvirate and the \m/embership. The offer of unacceptable terms showed whether if the alliance was willing to endure the harshest situations in order to maintain its members and identity, and maybe have a hope for more acceptable terms or disband - nations in rubble yet still stick around, talk with each others, have an alliance to care for, etc. - or raise the arms in the air and give up? Given that the unanimous Tri decision was made to disband a little more than a week into the war, and there clearly were not enough members protesting the decision, \m/ in general was not willing to be in Hell and keep going, but rather just succumbing to the burning flames around it.

Thus, there we are. My conclusion is that although externalities may assist in an alliance's decision to disband, the main factor is most definitively how loyal its members are, and how well-bonded with each other they are (thus, the willingness to stick together in the worse case scenarios).

V, one of the best written most accurate pieces I have ever read on the end of our beloved alliance.

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well again i point out that Polaris is the only ones blamed for \m/ and Genmay. TPF maybe for NoV but i never see it. the only ones i can now remember for Hegemony is CIS and yes IAA for NPO and VE for GGA. that is bout it. NAAC, LUE, CDS, ONOS, GOLD, GOONS and many others are never even brought up in except for those sigs. the former (or current in the case of VE) members themselves to my knowledge don't bring it up. CIS and VE to my knowledge don't bring it up anymore and most everyone i know in IAA does not bring it up either.

the only two alliances i have consistently seen former members blame anyone for the disbandment of their alliances are \m/ and [m]. and that is directed at Polaris solely. though this is a first that STA has been blamed.

in fact until this war and those sigs, i have not really heard about the other alliances and their disbandments at all really.

mostly from what i have seen Hegemony being called evil about are the incredibly harsh terms that were handed out left and right to any and most alliances regardless of any reasons. GATO, FAN, Polaris, MK, GPA, NoV, and the list grows from there.

Uh, based on what do you believe this? I think at the time we blamed pretty much all of ~, your accusation that we consistently have blamed Polar for this also seems a bit weak to me, considering I think this is probably the first time any of us have really mentioned it here or in public. I really haven't seen Genmay dragged out into the public eye for quite some time tbh (minus that ex-genmay members thread jofna posted, but it was one of many of those types of threads), so I really don't know where you get this idea that we are going out there and blaming people and caring. Genmay is dead, lets all just let it stay dead and focus on better things (like this war going on right now).

Edited by mrcalkin
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I think "we" (read: anyone who was ever connected to Hegemony) get blamed for NAAC, LUE, CDS, ONOS, GOLD, NoV, GOONS, \m/, Genmay, IAA, and like ten others. There are several sigs circulating with more complete lists.

-Bama

No ex-CDS member blames anyone but nazis.

edit: forgot to add the ex.

Edited by Mogar
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