You forced us to disband!!

[Electron Sponge]

Seriously, read. You were a willing participant to the destruction of that alliance, you watched it happen by your ally and never did anything to stop it. Have a great day.

To avoid derailing yet another very lucid, well written discussion (*snicker*) I'll start a new one based upon this line of thought pulled from the Valhalla discussion. Over the course of several posts Nizzle has asserted that Tygaland and STA helped force Genmay to disband in the Unjust War. This is an accusation commonly directed toward me as well, from former Genmay and \m/ members especially.

It's entirely false, for one simple reason. You can't force an alliance to disband. If you could, Vox Populi would have ceased to exist months ago. What happened in those two cases was the incompetent leadership giving up instead of fighting on. If those alliances were worth saving they would still be around. Stop your crying over alliances you yourselves disbanded and stop laying the blame at my feet. I didn't start that war first of all, Genmay did. Second I didn't tell you to disband. You could have fought on and won some respect for yourselves along with peace, but instead you threw in the towel the moment things got hard. Look at FAN. Look at OcUK. Look at Vox Populi. These alliances never gave up and they are still around today. Today these alliances are getting white peace. You too could have achieved something similar and a lot more easily. You disbanded and no one can possibly force you to do that. You don't have a right to complain at all.

In short, quit your crying because some of us have gone through a lot worse and still hung together as an alliance. You come off as nothing but spoiled children who break their toys and then cry about it.

[Sileath]

No alliances are "forced" to disband. FAN has not disbanded.

Sponge your signature is annoying, it stretches out the page.

[shahenshah]

Sponge your signature is annoying, it stretches out the page.

/ooc/ I think something maybe wrong with your browser or desktop resolution, its fine here for me /ooc/

[Doitzel]

I never understood why alliances that prided themselves on their tough-guy attitudes disbanded at the sight of terms that were clearly designed to prolong the war, not be taken seriously. I don't know, they talk about how great their communities were but they tore them apart voluntarily at the drop of a hat, before their alliances were even really completely demolished. You'd think they'd have placed less value on their infrastructure.

Oh well. Their loss. I agree that the blame-casting is getting old. FAN has set the standard.

[Owned-You]

Well said Sponge, well said.

[King Srqt]

As a member of one of the alliances that you "forced to disband" I endorse this message. I think the reason you are blamed by a lot of the general membership of those alliances is that most of the general membership of the alliances did not want to disband and were told by their government that you were the reason that they decided to give up.

[Captain Fatbeard]

I like the cut of your jib, Mr. Dr. Wonderful.

[mrcalkin]

To avoid derailing yet another very lucid, well written discussion (*snicker*) I'll start a new one based upon this line of thought pulled from the Valhalla discussion. Over the course of several posts Nizzle has asserted that Tygaland and STA helped force Genmay to disband in the Unjust War. This is an accusation commonly directed toward me as well, from former Genmay and \m/ members especially.

It's entirely false, for one simple reason. You can't force an alliance to disband. If you could, Vox Populi would have ceased to exist months ago. What happened in those two cases was the incompetent leadership giving up instead of fighting on. If those alliances were worth saving they would still be around. Stop your crying over alliances you yourselves disbanded and stop laying the blame at my feet. I didn't start that war first of all, Genmay did. Second I didn't tell you to disband. You could have fought on and won some respect for yourselves along with peace, but instead you threw in the towel the moment things got hard. Look at FAN. Look at OcUK. Look at Vox Populi. These alliances never gave up and they are still around today. Today these alliances are getting white peace. You too could have achieved something similar and a lot more easily. You disbanded and no one can possibly force you to do that. You don't have a right to complain at all.

In short, quit your crying because some of us have gone through a lot worse and still hung together as an alliance. You come off as nothing but spoiled children who break their toys and then cry about it.

edit: on second thought, the last line is enough.

But whatever, Genmay is dead, its long gone, let it die and rest in peace.

Edited May 11, 2009 by mrcalkin

[Nizzle]

To avoid derailing yet another very lucid, well written discussion (*snicker*) I'll start a new one based upon this line of thought pulled from the Valhalla discussion. Over the course of several posts Nizzle has asserted that Tygaland and STA helped force Genmay to disband in the Unjust War. This is an accusation commonly directed toward me as well, from former Genmay and \m/ members especially.

It's entirely false, for one simple reason. You can't force an alliance to disband. If you could, Vox Populi would have ceased to exist months ago. What happened in those two cases was the incompetent leadership giving up instead of fighting on. If those alliances were worth saving they would still be around. Stop your crying over alliances you yourselves disbanded and stop laying the blame at my feet. I didn't start that war first of all, Genmay did. Second I didn't tell you to disband. You could have fought on and won some respect for yourselves along with peace, but instead you threw in the towel the moment things got hard. Look at FAN. Look at OcUK. Look at Vox Populi. These alliances never gave up and they are still around today. Today these alliances are getting white peace. You too could have achieved something similar and a lot more easily. You disbanded and no one can possibly force you to do that. You don't have a right to complain at all.

In short, quit your crying because some of us have gone through a lot worse and still hung together as an alliance. You come off as nothing but spoiled children who break their toys and then cry about it.

Absolutely brilliant post! I give it two thumbs up!

Brilliant example of taking criticism leveled at another and turning it into a topic all about you! You, good sir, should start a lecture circuit.

[Jim Bowie]

Look at NoR. Still around, still the same guys.

Well put Sponge.

JB

[Electron Sponge]

Absolutely brilliant post! I give it two thumbs up!

Brilliant example of taking criticism leveled at another and turning it into a topic all about you! You, good sir, should start a lecture circuit.

Actually it's more about you than me.

[Tom Litler]

Look at NoR. Still around, still the same guys.

Well put Sponge.

JB

Nordreich disbanded and reformed. Furthermore, Nordreich didn't disband in the midst of a war in an attempt to avoid unfavorable surrender terms.

Would anyone thwart the return of the NAAC or \m/? Probably, seeing as how they both disbanded instead of standing strong in the face of adversity.

[mrcalkin]

Actually it's more about you than me.

I think what Nizzle was saying, and what some of us feel, is that Tyga implicitly supported your use of what I consider to be harsh terms in that war simply by never raising an issue about it. He made up for it somewhat by giving ex-Genmay extremely lax individual surrender terms, especially when compared to your alliance, and for even allowing nations who had not fought against the STA to surrender to them. I don't really hold it against you guys anymore (I mean its been almost 2 years ffs), but its a big part of why we pushed for lenient terms on Valhalla. Maybe Nizzle was being too harsh on Tyga, but the thread where that quote came from has quite the ability to raise the blood pressure, so I really don't blame him for saying something like that, because frankly I was tempted to post something similar but kept my mouth shut since I will probably never know the full story from back then.

edit:

Nordreich disbanded and reformed. Furthermore, Nordreich didn't disband in the midst of a war in an attempt to avoid unfavorable surrender terms.

Would anyone thwart the return of the NAAC or \m/? Probably, seeing as how they both disbanded instead of standing strong in the face of adversity.

The mistake you make is that you said "unfavorable surrender terms" when we were in fact denied terms (or at least so we thought at that time, things have come up since then that made me think there was some misunderstandings internal in Genmay, and externally in communication with the NpO). We disbanded because we didn't want to be a FAN, and I really don't regret doing it, Umbrella has been awesome.

Edited May 11, 2009 by mrcalkin

[TheEraser]

I'm sure if alliances could be forcibly disbanded then there are quite a few current alliances that would not be around today. This is unfortunately not the case however.

for a while the crying over \m/, genmay was funny, but it got old quick. Seriously you guys through in the towel because you couldn't finish the war you started, deal with it.

[Kiss Goodbye]

Realistically, had Genmay and /m\ stayed on in the war, and fought well, they'd have gotten terms.

I mean, look at what happened when NPO attacked MK. The intent there was fairly obviously aimed at getting them to disband. MK fought incredibly well and while their terms were harsh, they were real terms.

[Un4Gvn1]

I never understood why alliances that prided themselves on their tough-guy attitudes disbanded at the sight of terms that were clearly designed to prolong the war, not be taken seriously. I don't know, they talk about how great their communities were but they tore them apart voluntarily at the drop of a hat, before their alliances were even really completely demolished. You'd think they'd have placed less value on their infrastructure.

Oh well. Their loss. I agree that the blame-casting is getting old. FAN has set the standard.

That bolded part would be the answer. They weren't really as together and tough as they tried to portray themselves; kind of like bullies, you know? You stand up to a bully and he ends up leaving you alone (unless he's a nut-job) because his bark is worse than his bite.

[mrcalkin]

Realistically, had Genmay and /m\ stayed on in the war, and fought well, they'd have gotten terms.

I mean, look at what happened when NPO attacked MK. The intent there was fairly obviously aimed at getting them to disband. MK fought incredibly well and while their terms were harsh, they were real terms.

Genmay had fallen apart internally in the wake of the OOC scandal, there was no way we could have continued "fighting on" for terms really.

I'm sure if alliances could be forcibly disbanded then there are quite a few current alliances that would not be around today. This is unfortunately not the case however.

for a while the crying over \m/, genmay was funny, but it got old quick. Seriously you guys through in the towel because you couldn't finish the war you started, deal with it.

Seriously, I think we did pretty well in not whining after genmay was disbanded, I don't think you will find many threads/posts related to it after october 2007

Edited May 11, 2009 by mrcalkin

[Electron Sponge]

I think what Nizzle was saying, and what some of us feel, is that Tyga implicitly supported your use of what I consider to be harsh terms in that war simply by never raising an issue about it. He made up for it somewhat by giving ex-Genmay extremely lax individual surrender terms, especially when compared to your alliance, and for even allowing nations who had not fought against the STA to surrender to them. I don't really hold it against you guys anymore (I mean its been almost 2 years ffs), but its a big part of why we pushed for lenient terms on Valhalla. Maybe Nizzle was being too harsh on Tyga, but the thread where that quote came from has quite the ability to raise the blood pressure, so I really don't blame him for saying something like that, because frankly I was tempted to post something similar but kept my mouth shut since I will probably never know the full story from back then.

Yeah, no one else has ever seen harsh terms before except Genmay and \m/. Give me a break. Had you guys not been in such a hurry to scramble over your fallen comrades to get out of a losing war you would probably have gotten decent terms.

You're talking to someone who has fielded demands for his alliance's disbandment during peace negotiations before, and someone whose current alliance wasn't even given the option of peace at all until that was forced upon their opponents by the most powerful coalition of alliances in memory some 10 months after the start of hostilities. 0 for 2 in the disbandment department there and both times were a hell of a lot worse than anything Genmay or \m/ ever experienced.

Again, none of what you brought up here forced Genmay or \m/ to disband. Genmay started the war and then when they realized they were going to get their butts kicked they disbanded. \m/ much the same, except for some reason they thought I was going to be charitable with my initial offer of terms. I'm not sure why they thought that after a couple months of their leadership (as well as the leadership of most other UJP alliances) harassing me and my staff I'd somehow be inclined to just let bygones be bygones. I wanted blood and and felt giving them peace so quickly was just shortening their time to rebuild and try again. Starting a war has consequences if you can't pull off the win.

I can see things from both sides of the coin - sure it's better to be a little on the light side as far as peace terms go, but it's still war and if you don't take the damage in the war you're going to take it afterward as far as I'm concerned. And if you're the one starting the war? You better win.

[Sal Paradise]

That bolded part would be the answer. They weren't really as together and tough as they tried to portray themselves; kind of like bullies, you know? You stand up to a bully and he ends up leaving you alone (unless he's a nut-job) because his bark is worse than his bite.

Yes yes, the honourable representative from the Phoenix Federation makes an excellent point. A point that hasn't lost it relevancy nearly two years later.

[D34th]

You can't force an alliance to disband. If you could, Vox Populi would have ceased to exist months ago. What happened in those two cases was the incompetent leadership giving up instead of fighting on. If those alliances were worth saving they would still be around. Stop your crying over alliances you yourselves disbanded and stop laying the blame at my feet.

That's true, alliance disbands because their members love their nations infra to much.

Vox and FAN are two great examples of how stay around even facing ZI.

Edited May 11, 2009 by D34th

[threefingeredguy]

Genmay had fallen apart internally in the wake of the OOC scandal, there was no way we could have continued "fighting on" for terms really.

Yeah, it wasn't really harsh surrender terms or anything that did us in. Our entire gov collapsed after that OOC stuff happened. People were dropping out of the war left and right and we no longer had anything that even remotely resembled order or leadership.

I also don't think the terms leveled against genmay were that bad. I remember BOTS told us to pay 250m. While that was admittedly a lot of cash back then, it's really not that much. The disbandment of Genmay was not caused by a demand of 250m dongs, nor was it caused by any one person or alliance making us disband.

Edit: No matter how you feel about it, it was a blessing in disguise anyway. I'd much rather be in Umbrella than Genmay.

Edited May 11, 2009 by threefingeredguy

[mrcalkin]

Yeah, no one else has ever seen harsh terms before except Genmay and \m/. Give me a break. Had you guys not been in such a hurry to scramble over your fallen comrades to get out of a losing war you would probably have gotten decent terms.

You're talking to someone who has fielded demands for his alliance's disbandment during peace negotiations before, and someone whose current alliance wasn't even given the option of peace at all until that was forced upon their opponents by the most powerful coalition of alliances in memory some 10 months after the start of hostilities. 0 for 2 in the disbandment department there and both times were a hell of a lot worse than anything Genmay or \m/ ever experienced.

Again, none of what you brought up here forced Genmay or \m/ to disband. Genmay started the war and then when they realized they were going to get their butts kicked they disbanded. \m/ much the same, except for some reason they thought I was going to be charitable with my initial offer of terms. I'm not sure why they thought that after a couple months of their leadership (as well as the leadership of most other UJP alliances) harassing me and my staff I'd somehow be inclined to just let bygones be bygones. I wanted blood and and felt giving them peace so quickly was just shortening their time to rebuild and try again. Starting a war has consequences if you can't pull off the win.

I can see things from both sides of the coin - sure it's better to be a little on the light side as far as peace terms go, but it's still war and if you don't take the damage in the war you're going to take it afterward as far as I'm concerned. And if you're the one starting the war? You better win.

I don't doubt NpO had a tough time and beat it, but Genmay was not NpO, nor am I accusing you of forcing a disbandment. We were just unwilling/uncapable of fighting on, so no terms at that time basically gave us the option of 1. quitting 2. disbanding and getting on with ourselves, but that was a result of internal issues, not because NpO put a gun to our head and said we had to disband. Look, I just don't see the masses whining about our disbandment, nor do the [m]embers really give a crap by this point. I mean, its 2 years ago, Umbrella is fine (or TOP or Gre or DE or wherever else we ended up) and I don't really mind that Genmay is gone anymore. I guess I am alone in considering disbandment a valid tactic, but to each his own.

That's true, alliance disbands because their members love their nations infra to much.

Vox and FAN are two great examples of how stay around even facing ZI.

Hmm, getting out of peace mode right now with Genmay, finally free at last, or having a blast for the last 1.5 years in Umbrella, I find the choice to we made to be the better one.

Edited May 11, 2009 by mrcalkin

[Firkked]

The decision to disband Terra Prime was less due to external pressures and more to do with the inability to maintain a cohesive structure between government and membership, doing so at the negotiation table was a choice I was not consulted on nor was it my place to be a part of that decision.

I do agree that no one can truly force disbandment on an alliance and that it is mostly an internal decision that leads to that particular outcome.

[mrcalkin]

The decision to disband Terra Prime was less due to external pressures and more to do with the inability to maintain a cohesive structure between government and membership, doing so at the negotiation table was a choice I was not consulted on nor was it my place to be a part of that decision.

I do agree that no one can truly force disbandment on an alliance and that it is mostly an internal decision that leads to that particular outcome.

I have a feeling most disbandments are caused by a total meltdown of order within the alliance. When you no longer have a functional government, and the members are off doing their own thing, and no one is willing/able to take control, I really don't see many options.

[D34th]

Hmm, getting out of peace mode right now with Genmay, finally free at last, or having a blast for the last 1.5 years in Umbrella, I find the choice to we made to be the better one.

This. You did the choice, nobody forced you to disband. Thanks to prove my point.