Announcement from VE, AZTEC, ARES, and MCXA

[empirica]

Congrats on peace. With the exception of a couple places where the terms could be clarified a bit further to avoid confusion, the terms are reasonable.

You seem to think this is about me, this is really about people reversing what they have been saying for months. That would be you & Karma. The fact I have not complained about enough "injustices" to satisfy your idea of consistency doesnt change the fact that you guys have made a massive leap to the "dark side" especially where reps are concerned. This is your chance to punish people and you are taking it with both hands. I dont need to be neutral to see it.

Karma hasn't been complaining about the concept of reparations. Karma has been complaining (and doing something about) excessive terms, such as viceroys, PZI/EZI, etc. There are many alliances in the Karma coalition who would be more than justified in taking this opportunity to turn the tables, and put some of these alliances through the same fate which they suffered. Be glad most of Karma are being more reasonable, merciful, and gracious. 10k tech is nothing, particularly when compared to prior wars, such as the noCB war of last year.

Also, for those people who think this is a revenge war from the BLEU days, you're wrong. MCXA's treatment of BLEU (I was there, I was one of the many BLEU leadership present, I know what happened) may have played a part in the many reasons for the existence of Karma, but it doesn't appear that MCXA's opponents kept those days in mind when writing/negotiating these terms.

[hizzy]

Also, for those people who think this is a revenge war from the BLEU days, you're wrong. MCXA's treatment of BLEU (I was there, I was one of the many BLEU leadership present, I know what happened) may have played a part in the many reasons for the existence of Karma, but it doesn't appear that MCXA's opponents kept those days in mind when writing/negotiating these terms.

To add to this, if we really cared about what happened then, MCXA's reps would also include a 20K shipment of tech to Polaris.

I know for a fact I never promised white peace across the board, ESPECIALLY for the major players (I've tried my best though to get white peace to all the smaller participants), and I'm pretty positive no other Karma leader has promised for this war to end without any sort of terms or reps being paid. Especially when, by all accounts, the Karma side is on the defensive. NPO launched the first attacks, and everyone else who joined them is in essence on offense.

[Doitzel]

Karma have never said that there would be no reps. What people have been complaining about for months is excessive rep demands, and violations of sovereignty like viceroys or kicking members. 10,000 tech from a large alliance is not excessive.

No it's not, at all. FAN could pay that amount in a month if allowed to come out of peace mode unmolested and they have less than 100 members and have been sitting in peace mode for a year and a half.

[hizzy]

That is why it was in a public thread. Because it was secret.

Keep going.

Edit: Weren't you the guy running around trying to convince people that we need to Perma-ZI them, and who claimed that the Polar reps aren't harsh enough?

Or was that your non-existent twin brother?

It's just coincidence that you only brought it up and asked for those members to be ZI'd once you saw NpO's diplomatic isolation, which was several months after those 2 members had already joined NpO.

One big coincidence. Sure.

[Haflinger]

Especially when, by all accounts, the Karma side is on the defensive. NPO launched the first attacks, and everyone else who joined them is in essence on offense.

Yawn.

Can we please get over this obsession with offensive/defensive wars? I spoke out against it indirectly here and directly here when the same kind of logic was being applied to the STA.

Honouring treaties is honouring treaties. Nearly every alliance joined this war because of a treaty of some kind.

[hizzy]

Yawn.

Can we please get over this obsession with offensive/defensive wars? I spoke out against it indirectly here and directly here when the same kind of logic was being applied to the STA.

Honouring treaties is honouring treaties. Nearly every alliance joined this war because of a treaty of some kind.

The point is people accusing various alliances of making promises which weren't made, while pretending the circumstances are the same when they really arn't, and then acting as if the end result is no different than what we've condemned in the past.

If anybody (especially Alterego) would like to look back and show me exactly where anybody said paying a small amount of tech after being beaten in a war you started/supported is immoral and evil, I'll concede the point, otherwise, people should stop putting words in our mouths.

[Francesca]

i thought karma's kick was to stop the senseless terms of mass payments of tech, etc. good to see a reversal of this policy, especially since it goes right back to embracing what you're fighting against.

everyone that was in government when we sided with NPO is now running TSO. after ejecting them, we got dragged into this because of long-standing treaties. but i guess you watched the documentary already.

You are either lying or shockingly ignorant. You did NOT eject TSO from MCXA, they left of their own accord. I found out what they were planning a week before it took place and warned my brothers in the alliance of what was going to transpire. Because it seemed likely that MCXA was going to disband, I suggested that they get out of MCXA. For this I was branded a traitor for the first time. I believed at the time that it was worth all the accusations of betrayal, because I wouldn't regret doing what was right and letting people know what was really going on. It makes me both sad and angry that people like YOU are forgetting the past, making my sacrifices during those difficult times seem completely insignificant and irrelevant.

If you would look back to before the war when we canceled several treaties it was actually only phase one in a total treaty evaluation. So, we wrre goign through the process FYI.

This is correct. We evaluated a number of our treaties, and cancelled some with alliances we didn't have strong connections with. However, I must say that if alliances like FCC had been hegemony alliances, we wouldn't have cancelled. Too puppet-like, really. At the very least, if they were going to cancel treaties due to break down in communications, they should also have cancelled their MDPs with alliances like GDA, who at the time hadn't posted in their embassy since November last year. I doubt that situation has been rectified, but miracles do happen.

at the time we had no idea about the possibility of war.

!@#$%^&*. As Minister of Foreign Affairs, I knew exactly what was going on, and warned the entire alliance to prepare for imminent war. Remember my announcement entitled "Critical Announcement?" Or do I need to provide screenshots to jog your memory? What about the thread where I volunteered to audit any nation that requested it, because war was on the horizon? Or the countless times I brought up the war in the MCXA High Council government forum, or in #MCXA-govt?

Sorry, the MCXA doesn't have its own Spy Network to feed it every other alliances plans and intel.

Maybe not, but you had a well-informed MoFA who you chose not to listen to.

Sadly I don't sit on IRC 24/7. Might have been that or ermm I don't know, I might have ADD's.

EDIT: No offense intended to anyone who might have ADD's, bad joke .

Yeah, you aren't active at all much, really.

I'm sorry but I and the rest of the Multicolored Government was to busy attending to INTERNAL matters, much of which we haven't been able to overcome since the forming of the TSO. Excuse me for not being as politically involved as I should be, and excuse me for hoping to avoid a war. Sure tensions have been building up for months..most notably when VE canceled on NPO/GGA. But I once again reiterate, I was way more focused on MCXA's Internal Issues than worrying about External affairs which could always wait.

And I disagree, War is rarely inevitable, unless your the US and you crave OIL.

The !@#$%^&* is so strong, I can smell it. See what I have written already:

"!@#$%^&*. As Minister of Foreign Affairs, I knew exactly what was going on, and warned the entire alliance to prepare for imminent war. Remember my announcement entitled "Critical Announcement?" Or do I need to provide screenshots to jog your memory? What about the thread where I volunteered to audit any nation that requested it, because war was on the horizon? Or the countless times I brought up the war in the MCXA High Council government forum, or in #MCXA-govt?"

I did my job and attended to external affairs, and kept you updated. You were perfectly aware of the tensions that were going on, but you chose to ignore them.

Our current government wasn't the one calling the shots back then.

Rubbish. People like Doctor Fresh and Gopherbashi were certainly around during the War of the Coalition.

Also, we had no idea war was coming for to a huge split in government, total inner alliance chaos, having our forums hacked and totally destroyed for 2 weeks and having to rebuild. Then me no longer being MoFA and serving elsewhere in the alliance to then have our former MoFA being booted and having to step up to the plate to take over the mess that was left behind? *Cough* *Cough* But your right, its my fault i didn't see the war coming.

Yeah, you really opposed it when your colleagues in MCXA government showed me the door, and I left you a *complete* mess. /sarcasm. I was the most active MoFA in MCXA for months, and I'd been working hard on restoring relations with several notable Karma alliances, like VE and NV, as well as alliances like ODN and others. I'd also been restructuring the foreign affairs forums on the MCXA boards to make your life a LOT easier. In any event, you were a High Councillor before you were appointed to MoFA after I left, and as such a high ranking government member there is an expectation that you keep up to date on rudiments of CN politics. Doesn't seem to have sunk in yet, but don't worry, I have faith in you. It'll get there eventually.

Yes, some members were calling for our removal from those treaties. Is it true that members of the General Assembly asked for an expulsion trial to commence - ones which were not completed before they left the alliance of their own accord. I was not personally in favour of expulsion; a view likewise held by some other government members which I discussed the matter with. I am not going to say that every government member was against expulsion, but I personally doubt that it would have achieved the 2/3 majority that would be required for forcible removal.

Yeah, but you did strip me of my elected position as MoFA, which I had won with an 86% majority the day before. With all the trolling, abuse and harassment I was getting, it didn't take a genius to figure out you wanted me gone. Also, would you like me to post the log of when Fresh said that you wanted Maxfiles over me and my friends, simply because he was more useful to you, even though he was guilty of the same "crimes" and worse than us?

I personally created that state of alertness at the end of March, and set it to a baseline level which many believed was too low and criticized me for. There was no office in charge of changing that alert level - that power was vested in the unilateral decision of any Chancellor or the Minister of Defense after the system was created. It was agreed to set this level at Blue (the second-lowest level on a scale of five) on April 5th, and raised to Orange (the second-highest level) on April 17th. I don't know where you're getting your info from, but it's way off on this topic.

I raised MCXA's alert level to Code Yellow in preparation for imminent war. Such was within my powers as Minister of Foreign Affairs and High Councillor, until later on you removed my ability to do so and put it back down to peacetime alert. I was harassed over my decision to do this, until later MCXA realised that actually Code Yellow wasn't such a bad idea after all.

Edited May 9, 2009 by Francesca

[Francesca]

Thank you for confirmig what I said. The Deputy MoFA raised the alert level because she knew more about the world than the MoFA, you lowered it and removed her ability to raise it again, then you raised it yourself. Or to put it in a nice, compact flip-flop statement: "You raised the alert level after you lowered it."

Get your facts right. I was a full MoFA and High Councillor at the time.

You know nothing. I assume by DMoFA you mean Francesca. At the time she was the acting MoFA. As for me? I wasn't in the Foreign Affairs dept any longer.

I wasn't just an "acting" MoFA. I was a full, elected MoFA. But kudos to you, this is the first mostly-correct post you've made in this entire (OOC)thread. (OOC)

That's odd, I don't remember expelling anyone (except for one person that went rogue during war). I remember a lot of people quitting in a rage, but I don't remember expelling anyone. For being all up in our business you seem to be off a bit.

Yeah, we were given absolutely no reasons to be angry with MCXA. None whatsoever.

Small aside, I'd avoid relying on your informant and her associates. A Woman scorned and the master of spin are hardly trustworthy.

If you ever imply that I am a traitor again, you'd better have one hell of a warchest.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Francesca

[Tygaland]

The point is people accusing various alliances of making promises which weren't made, while pretending the circumstances are the same when they really arn't, and then acting as if the end result is no different than what we've condemned in the past.

If anybody (especially Alterego) would like to look back and show me exactly where anybody said paying a small amount of tech after being beaten in a war you started/supported is immoral and evil, I'll concede the point, otherwise, people should stop putting words in our mouths.

In all fairness to Alterego, if he did not put words in peoples' mouths he'd have nothing to complain about. You see, he is in a tricky spot at the moment. He so desperately wants to portray Karma as evil hypocrites but Karma just isn't giving him the ammunition he needs. So, he has now made up a policy on Karma's behalf and is judging them against it.

He doesn't have an issue with harsh terms as long as his friends are dishing them out as he never once made any noise about viceroys, expulsions and obscene reparations demands in the past.

No, Alterego decided that Karma were hypocrites before a single peace term was agreed and he is going to stick with that no matter how much the evidence shows they are not.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Tygaland

[Haflinger]

The point is people accusing various alliances of making promises which weren't made, while pretending the circumstances are the same when they really arn't, and then acting as if the end result is no different than what we've condemned in the past.

Ehh, I won't quibble with this. There's plenty of hypocrisy going around, along with plenty of noble sentiments as well.

I just wish people could get over the whole aggressive/defensive war thing. It's always more complicated than that; I've yet to see a war start where one side was wholly innocent and never ever did anything to harm their nasty, mean attacker. People attack their enemies, or at least people they perceive as enemies; there's generally some kind of reason for it (although not always a good one of course).

Trying to cast wars as "defensive" is usually done by someone for PR purposes. It's not really as useful a distinction as it looks at first glance.

[hizzy]

In all fairness to Alterego, if he did not put words in peoples' mouths he'd have nothing to complain about. You see, he is in a tricky spot at the moment. He so desperately wants to portray Karma as evil hypocrites but Karma just isn't giving him the ammunition he needs. So, he has now made up a policy on Karma's behalf and is judging them against it.

He doesn't have an issue with harsh terms as long as his friends are dishing them out as he never once made any noise about viceroys, expulsions and obscene reparations demands in the past.

No, Alterego decided that Karma were hypocrites before a single peace term was agreed and he is going to stick with that no matter how much the evidence shows they are not.

Oh ok, good. I'm glad we can be fair to Alterego then. We wouldn't want him to think less of us.

[hizzy]

Ehh, I won't quibble with this. There's plenty of hypocrisy going around, along with plenty of noble sentiments as well.

I just wish people could get over the whole aggressive/defensive war thing. It's always more complicated than that; I've yet to see a war start where one side was wholly innocent and never ever did anything to harm their nasty, mean attacker. People attack their enemies, or at least people they perceive as enemies; there's generally some kind of reason for it (although not always a good one of course).

Trying to cast wars as "defensive" is usually done by someone for PR purposes. It's not really as useful a distinction as it looks at first glance.

I get what you mean. I meant it more as a contrast to, say, the noCB war where someone was attacked outright, demolished, and then had to pay out 100K tech. Not naming any names though .

But you're right, in a war like this one, a lot of people are going in to defend friends via MDP's, and beyond NPO's initial shot, it's really not fair to claim anyone is an aggressor or defender.

[oinkoink12]

Decent terms,

[hizzy]

Decent terms,

I really need to know the 2nd half of your sentence. !@#$ like this keeps me up at night.

[PrinceArutha]

Karma have never said that there would be no reps. What people have been complaining about for months is excessive rep demands, and violations of sovereignty like viceroys or kicking members. 10,000 tech from a large alliance is not excessive.

agreed, and to be honest, coming from an alliance who was rolled in a war by IRON, MHA, PC, and Ragnarok (all in good fun and no hard feelings) I will say that paying reps actually HELPED Nueva Vida after the war. It helped us not by recovering our lost tech or infra, but it helped us get our organization back up to par. After the war we (as MCXA is probably) were in a state of disarray, but to avoid getting rolled again we had to come together and get organized. Our terms were MUCH heavier, and luckily as we later found out MHA and IRON had planned on waiving our terms from the start of the peace negotiations. We actually gained some good friends over in all those alliances...(and I got to nuke some guys from PC )

I do hope MCXA thrives through this and comes out a better more together group because of all this.

[lebubu]

I like these terms a lot, congrats to our allies in NV for their victory.

[enderland]

Two wrongs do not make a right. Isn't that what this war is all about?

NPO attacked OV while in the midst of negotiations as to how the situation could be resolved peacefully.

NPO was attacked because they started shooting.

You really can't see the difference? In one case, someone pulled out a gun at a table where peaceful negotiations are occurring, and just starts shooting at the person they are negotiating with.

In the other, that same person shoots up the table, then says "you can't shoot me back, we wanna negotiate surrender terms now!" Surrender negotiations are significantly different than peaceful negotiations to resolve an incident before military action has been initiated.

[bzelger]

Forcing treaties to be dropped, blocking reconstruction aid, setting other alliances government policy and setting military levels are things you have been praising for some time now.

No treaties are dropped under these terms, and the other restrictions only last until the reps are paid. Since they can be paid in essentially no time it's hardly an issue to complain about. Your outrage would be taken more seriously if you objected to things that were outrageous rather than taking a blanket approach and firing at everything that comes into your line of sight.

[Goldie]

no reason for ve and the others to rub salt in the wounds of mcxa with harsh terms. theyve already lost so much.

good, fair terms

[Bill Wallace]

MCXA took a major hit after this war, the proper thing to do would've just to give them white peace and help them rebuild by paying for those tech deals. Just taking 7k tech from them isn't going to solve anything, it's just going to cause more problems.

Thanks for the lecture on what is the "proper" thing to do. But please, by means don't stop here. I'm sure there's some other alliances with who you could discuss what is proper and what is not. Let me give you a push in the right direction: NPO's declaration or war against OV and the CB that was used.

[Proxian Empire]

MCXA took a major hit after this war, the proper thing to do would've just to give them white peace and help them rebuild by paying for those tech deals. Just taking 7k tech from them isn't going to solve anything, it's just going to cause more problems.

Pay MCXA? Reformed clowns or not, no one owes them anything. They will likely disband not long after this war regardless.

[Haflinger]

Pay MCXA? Reformed clowns or not, no one owes them anything. They will likely disband not long after this war regardless.

Speak for yourself, Penchuk. Don't pretend to speak for everyone.

[Proxian Empire]

Speak for yourself, Penchuk. Don't pretend to speak for everyone.

How does that address what I said at all? Care to provide an example where people owe money to MCXA? That's what I thought, now quietly return to your cage, peon.

[Il Principe]

Seems to be very reasonable terms.

It is good to see MCXA getting peace after this harsh war. Good luck rebuilding to both sides.

[Mayzie]

Thanks MCXA for an enjoyable fight & good luck with the rebuilding.

Our first war, it was certainly a new experience for us, a learning curve and something that will no doubt become invaluable to our alliance and it's progression in the future.

Also, with war comes a peak of activity, during which time we got to find out the true personalities of our members. I'm not sure whose idea it was to stick posters up in padded cells and wasn't aware that we were even doing it, but it seems to have done the trick. (OOC: <That thing is horrid)

To our fellow AZTEC allies, well, as always, it's been a pleasure and honour working with you, you were helpful, professional and reliable as always.

o/ AZTEC

o/ 1TF