Is this the First World War?

[Ryan Greenberg]

As much as I don't like the name, 'Karma War', it is not World War I. It is the Karma War because that's what got popular quick, and more and more people just stuck with it. Maybe the next major war can be called World War I or Epic War I or something like that.

[Sovyet Gelibolu]

As much as I don't like the name, 'Karma War', it is not World War I. It is the Karma War because that's what got popular quick, and more and more people just stuck with it. Maybe the next major war can be called World War I or Epic War I or something like that.

It's been said before, but the CATO-INC war was World War I. Also, GWIII is The Epic War.

Personally, I'm beginning to come around to the opinion that only GWI should have the name "Great War". If that were the case, the nomenclature would be something like ChairmanHal suggested a couple pages ago:

The Great War

The Farklands War

The War for Justice (I don't like "The Epic War" and according to wiki, both sides agree on some permutation of it)

The Unjust War

The NoCB War

The Karma War

[Ada069]

People need to get over this idea that Karma war isnt good enougth.

Karma war is fine. it doesnt need no special name. Karma war is its name and people are not gonna remember it as any other name. so i think people need to give up.

[Sal Paradise]

No, the Great Wars were not predictable from they first night they occurred, that's why UJW and the Coalition War are not Great Wars, and neither is this.

That isn't a reliable criteria for a great war. The outcome of GW3 was just as predictable from the beginning as this war.

I'm implying this was designed to make sure NPO lost

You might want to check back on who started this war. I doubt the NPO designed this war so that they would lose.

[neneko]

You might want to check back on who started this war. I doubt the NPO designed this war so that they would lose.

dare I say that this was a...brilliant political move

[Mogar]

That isn't a reliable criteria for a great war. The outcome of GW3 was just as predictable from the beginning as this war.

You might want to check back on who started this war. I doubt the NPO designed this war so that they would lose.

were you around for GW3? nobody had seen ODN or Legion in war for over a year and we honestly expected a lot more out of them, and I doubt they did either, but they certainly managed to piss off any semblance of winning this war by offensively declaring without notifying their allies, sort of screwed themselves over.

[Sal Paradise]

were you around for GW3? nobody had seen ODN or Legion in war for over a year and we honestly expected a lot more out of them, and I doubt they did either, but they certainly managed to piss off any semblance of winning this war by offensively declaring without notifying their allies, sort of screwed themselves over.

Please start making sense.

[Mogar]

Please start making sense.

Even had NPO not be stupid enough to do this war the way they did, the numerical advantage was going to be the Karma side, however had NPO pulled this off perfectly, a few less alliances would have joined Karma, and the Hegemony would have been able to do enough damage to some alliances(look at CCC for example) to potentially have been able to turn the tide against Karma, and the GW3 comment if you dont understand I simply cannot explain to you.

[Homura]

This isn't the first time most of the world's alliance were embroiled in conflict and as such is not the first world war. I'll be calling it Great War 5/Karma War or GW5 for short since I'm part of the sensible majority that believes the Unjust War was also a Great War (which started out even-sided and could have easily gone wrong for ~).

[Sal Paradise]

Even had NPO not be stupid enough to do this war the way they did, the numerical advantage was going to be the Karma side, however had NPO pulled this off perfectly, a few less alliances would have joined Karma, and the Hegemony would have been able to do enough damage to some alliances(look at CCC for example) to potentially have been able to turn the tide against Karma,

Which has nothing to do with whether or not this war was designed so that the NPO would lose.

The point still stands that the NPO started this war and that the NPO were the ones that screwed it up. If this war was "designed" someone would have had to design it, and by all accounts it seems that only the NPO could have done so. Unless the alliance is run by some kind of farm animal, they couldn't possibly have been so stupid as to have deliberately designed this war so that they would lose.

and the GW3 comment if you dont understand I simply cannot explain to you.

Somehow I thought that if I pointed out your comment made no sense, you might have reread it and realized it didn't.

were you around for GW3? nobody had seen ODN or Legion in war for over a year and we honestly expected a lot more out of them, and I doubt they did either, but they certainly managed to piss off any semblance of winning this war by offensively declaring without notifying their allies, sort of screwed themselves over.

This is called a reference error. It's a little clearer who the second 'they' is after your most recent comment, but the first 'they' is still lost between two derailed trains of thought.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Sal Paradise

[Mogar]

Which has nothing to do with whether or not this war was designed so that the NPO would lose.

The point still stands that the NPO started this war and that the NPO were the ones that screwed it up. If this war was "designed" someone would have had to design it, and by all accounts it seems that only the NPO could have done so. Unless the alliance is run by some kind of farm animal, they couldn't possibly have been so stupid as to have deliberately designed this war so that they would lose.

This war was going to happen whether NPO had attacked or not, if NPO didn't attack then, they would have been completely politically isolated and then curbstomped, and it made sense in my head, just didn't express it clear enough.

[greatmagnus]

I am amazed at the number of yes votes.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

This isn't the first time most of the world's alliance were embroiled in conflict and as such is not the first world war. I'll be calling it Great War 5/Karma War or GW5 for short since I'm part of the sensible majority that believes the Unjust War was also a Great War (which started out even-sided and could have easily gone wrong for ~).

Coulda shoulda woulda. Fact is that UJP sputtered out and died without the conflict ever actually broadening out to become a GW.

Which means this is GWIV right now.

[Sal Paradise]

This war was going to happen whether NPO had attacked or not, if NPO didn't attack then, they would have been completely politically isolated and then curbstomped,

And you know this how?

and it made sense in my head, just didn't express it clear enough.

You need to stop trusting what makes sense in your head.

[Mogar]

And you know this how?

You need to stop trusting what makes sense in your head.

Because I see and hear a lot, Pacifica was going to fall one way or another, and I'd rather trust my brain rather than change my style of posting just to suit your desires.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Mogar

[Sal Paradise]

Because I see and hear a lot, Pacifica was going to fall one way or another,

Who was going to declare on the NPO?

[Mogar]

Who was going to declare on the NPO?

If you honestly think that the CB is the most important part of getting a war started, I don't think you've been paying attention for the past 3 years, you cant tell me all the bile and hate towards NPO that has been shown towards them since this war started would have never existed had they not declared on OV, otherwise Karma members wouldn't be spewing out every single thing NPO and allies has don't wrong over the past 3 years.

[Sal Paradise]

If you honestly think that the CB is the most important part of getting a war started, I don't think you've been paying attention for the past 3 years

That is the mentality of the NPO and their falling and rising meatshields, not ours.

You have absolutely no evidence on which to base your assumption that we would have behaved in the same manner. In fact, seeing as how some Karma alliances have been on the receiving end of this mentality throughout history and those former hegemony alliances in our ranks left in disgust at some of this behaviour, and that we've been a coalition of bleeding heart moralists, it is far more likely that we would have never started this war even if we did have a valid CB. Perhaps we may have come closer together and seemingly isolated the NPO, but any attempt to aggressively take on the NPO without cause would have certainly resulted in our coalition falling apart.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Sal Paradise

[bobjohnny]

Still think it's the STtW

[SynthFG]

This war was going to be tight, right up to the point where the Coward Coalition Bolted.

had the Hedgomny side been sitting at update, on the mornign when the DoW's started flying in at NPO, ready to immidiatly counter, they would have spoiled the attack, meaning that there key member did not have its offensive potential destroyed.

Such a unified counter would have also sent a strong message about the unity of the Hedgomony allies and delt a severe morale blow to the Karma side, as well as a great deal of damage.

Instead it was left to FARK to show how it should be done several days later when the blunted IRON's innitial assault,

The Long and Shord of it is that when the Cowards ran they handed Karma Victory

[Sigrun Vapneir]

While the factual elements may be correct, I dont agree with the spin.

They were not sitting online ready to do something because they had no warning, apparently.

It's not unreasonable to need one cycle to organise - and probably none of them have had to do it that quickly in a long time, perhaps in some cases never.

Hence the cancellations in protest. Serves as a protest, yes, has another purpose too they didnt point out for obvious reasons. But it did confuse us a little, and give their late blitz at least a little more force than it would have otherwise had.

[Bob Janova]

I find it amusing that the Hegemony's justification for starting the war in such haste and making such huge mistakes is that they thought they would come under attack anyway, and wanted to strike while the web was in their favour. I've heard it from elsewhere, so it's not just Mogar making things up.

Firstly, that 'strike while the web was in your favour' – well, that didn't go so well, did it? By acting in the way that they did, the NPO turned the web against them. With the web so tangled, starting an aggressive war was always going to tip the balance away from anyone who did it. Alliances like TOP, MHA, Sparta, Viridia – all have strong friendships in the Hegemony and would not have fought against it had the Hegemony not forced them into it.

And secondly, I don't know anyone in a serious alliance who would actually have attacked the NPO directly. It still had a huge web of MDPs (in fact it still does), any attack on NPO would have resulted in instant defeat; the NPO has huge political influence and isolating it would have been extremely difficult; and, most importantly, the alliances which make up Karma did not actually want a fight with the Hegemony, they just wanted to be free from interference by it.

Let's not forget that Hegemony started the war, and had they not done so, there would be no Karma and they would be permitted to live in peace indefinitely.

[SynthFG]

While the factual elements may be correct, I dont agree with the spin.

They were not sitting online ready to do something because they had no warning, apparently.

It's not unreasonable to need one cycle to organise - and probably none of them have had to do it that quickly in a long time, perhaps in some cases never.

Hence the cancellations in protest. Serves as a protest, yes, has another purpose too they didnt point out for obvious reasons. But it did confuse us a little, and give their late blitz at least a little more force than it would have otherwise had.

So the 24 hrs between NPO attacking OV

Which included some very blunt statements,

Unilateral Peace Talks on behalf of the NPO

TORN withdrawing in disgust

and further peace talks, wasn't enough notice to organise ?

Everyone and his dog knew that unless NPO backed down they were getting hit at update. The withdrawal apart from allowing NPO to be attacked unmolested gave our side a huge boost in morale and probably pulled many of the alliances sitting on the fence onto the side of Karma by providing that belief that Karma could win

The withdrawal of the coward coalition showed the hedgomony to be alot less organised and formidable than it had appeared on the outside so that when they did come skulking back they had lost that reputation and were facing people who had the belief that they could win

[Un4Gvn1]

Great War VI: The Karma War

Great War V: War of the Coalition

Great War IV: The Unjust War

Great War III: The Epic War

Great War II: The Farklands War

Great War I

Exactly this, as Chairman Hal listed.

[Bob Janova]

Except that a lot of people don't agree with the allocation of GW4 and 5, and therefore the Karma War is GW4, 5 or 6 depending on who you ask. Which is a good reason to call it by its name and not a number