Offical Announcement from Terra Prime

[enderland]

Much earlier in the discussion it was pointed out that Terra Prime was going through more difficulties than just the prospect of reparations. While I do not like the ultimate outcome, I do understand that holding an alliance together - even without external pressures - is not at all easy.

As long as the members have a place to hang their hats without being raided into oblivion, that would be enough for me as an outsider to ask.

I've since read the entire thread, shaking my head quite a few times.

First - If an alliance disbands before surrender terms are officially discussed, there are clearly other factors at play. These probably are a combination of any of the following - inactive membership, inactive/incompetant gov, gov speaking for entire alliance before alliance votes, existing internal problems, factions, external pressure, lack of unity within the alliance, etc.

Second - This is getting such a large number of "wow those terrible Karma people" responses from TPF/Valhalla and co that I have to wonder what is going on, since as someone else stated, an alliance that disbands over something which is this (relatively) small has to have something internally going on other than the war. It seems a really coincidental event that someone disbands over something like this when up to this point there has been almost no negative PR on Karma at all, in spite of people like chairmanhal trying as much as possible in the face of evidence to the contrary, in every thread.

Third - This is to all the little alliances out there: if you are not comfortable, aren't planning on being prepared, or are not going to be willing to go to war with your protector and probably get beat up, I strongly recommend wording protectorate treaties so that there is NO obligation for the protectorate to go to war on behalf of the protector. But don't sign a binding agreement and go to war over it and then expect everyone to feel so sorry for you >.< It's frustrating, especially as gov in a different small alliance that is currently being hammered very heavily by war. If you don't want/can't support someone in a war that is the nature of this or any of the past wars, just don't sign a treaty that requires you to do so. Or, sign a treaty that specifically states that you are not required to, so that there is no "lost honor" etc in it.

Fourth - if what CTB is saying is true, this entire thread is a farce, and I am thoroughly confused as to why there is so much of this "controversy" that you speak of since any of that controversy should be directed anywhere but Poison Clan.

Fifth - the "omg you can't give reps!" mentality from those who previously had no problem $@ing up a "CB," declaring war against allies preemptively, taking massive amounts of reps themselves, and being overall IC jerks is just hysterical. I really cannot believe that so many people had miraculous changes of heart and suddenly realized the evil of their ways, and now have the authority to lambaste others for partaking in minuscule versions of the same things. It's just hysterical.

Edited May 5, 2009 by alden peterson

[The Incredible Hulk]

inactive/incompetant gov

I'd just like to definitively point out that this particular issue did not exist. Having seen many co-government members enter and leave the cabinet at the end, Terra Prime was very lucky to have what I would consider an outstanding government from what it could've had.

[Firkked]

I've since read the entire thread, shaking my head quite a few times.

First - If an alliance disbands before surrender terms are officially discussed, there are clearly other factors at play. These probably are a combination of any of the following - inactive membership, inactive/incompetant gov, gov speaking for entire alliance before alliance votes, existing internal problems, factions, external pressure, lack of unity within the alliance, etc.

This is speculation on your part, you have had no interaction with Terra Prime before this discussion and had you taken the time to get to know us you would understand how offensive that speculation is to the former membership as a whole.

Second - This is getting such a large number of "wow those terrible Karma people" responses from TPF/Valhalla and co that I have to wonder what is going on, since as someone else stated, an alliance that disbands over something which is this (relatively) small has to have something internally going on other than the war. It seems a really coincidental event that someone disbands over something like this when up to this point there has been almost no negative PR on Karma at all, in spite of people like chairmanhal trying as much as possible in the face of evidence to the contrary, in every thread.

It's a conspiracy. A bunch of people who have nothing in common save a few treaties and a long history of good relations with this former alliance have planned for months on end to ensure that the timing was right for them to make this a PR coup. There is no chance that these people are merely shocked to find out one of their friends had more problems than they knew about.

Third - This is to all the little alliances out there: if you are not comfortable, aren't planning on being prepared, or are not going to be willing to go to war with your protector and probably get beat up, I strongly recommend wording protectorate treaties so that there is NO obligation for the protectorate to go to war on behalf of the protector. But don't sign a binding agreement and go to war over it and then expect everyone to feel so sorry for you >.< It's frustrating, especially as gov in a different small alliance that is currently being hammered very heavily by war. If you don't want/can't support someone in a war that is the nature of this or any of the past wars, just don't sign a treaty that requires you to do so. Or, sign a treaty that specifically states that you are not required to, so that there is no "lost honor" etc in it.

This is a good, basic piece of advice.

Fourth - if what CTB is saying is true, this entire thread is a farce, and I am thoroughly confused as to why there is so much of this "controversy" that you speak of since any of that controversy should be directed anywhere but Poison Clan.

When I want the straight and unbiased truth I head straight to CTB.

Fifth - the "omg you can't give reps!" mentality from those who previously had no problem $@ing up a "CB," declaring war against allies preemptively, taking massive amounts of reps themselves, and being overall IC jerks is just hysterical. I really cannot believe that so many people had miraculous changes of heart and suddenly realized the evil of their ways, and now have the authority to lambaste others for partaking in minuscule versions of the same things. It's just hysterical.

I'm glad that you're amused.

Terra Prime's disbandment is not the poster child for proof of Karma's hypocrisy and using our name to advance your agenda is disrespectful to this dead alliance and the good name it once had.

[Wu Tang Clan]

This is speculation on your part, you have had no interaction with Terra Prime before this discussion and had you taken the time to get to know us you would understand how offensive that speculation is to the former membership as a whole.

That's why he said "probably." He was pretty clear in stating it was speculation... But thanks for pointing out the obvious. And I guess I'm sorry you took offense to it, even though I don't understand why...

When I want the straight and unbiased truth I head straight to CTB.

I trust CTB wayyyyyyyyyyy more than I trust TP. So yeah, this is actually a good point.

I'm glad that you're amused.

I'm pretty amused myself. Please keep this thread going.

[Alterego]

Having to chose between bill lock and destruction and becoming a tech farm left you with little choice. The TSI thread confirms what they had in store for you, disbandment was as good as forced on you.

[Tromp]

Having to chose between bill lock and destruction and becoming a tech farm left you with little choice. The TSI thread confirms what they had in store for you, disbandment was as good as forced on you.

I can only shake my head at statements like these.

TP, sorry to see you go, though I don't think it was necessary. Have fun all individual TP nations, and good luck in the future.

[enderland]

This is speculation on your part, you have had no interaction with Terra Prime before this discussion and had you taken the time to get to know us you would understand how offensive that speculation is to the former membership as a whole.

Can you explain why TP disbanded then? Since there is no logical reason presented in this thread as to why an alliance would be forced to disband or even consider it at this point.

It's a conspiracy. A bunch of people who have nothing in common save a few treaties and a long history of good relations with this former alliance have planned for months on end to ensure that the timing was right for them to make this a PR coup. There is no chance that these people are merely shocked to find out one of their friends had more problems than they knew about.

Wow? Again, try actually explaining why TP disbanded. There is a large piece of that puzzle missing. Since while you try to refute my point #1 above, what I bolded basically says that it is correct

When I want the straight and unbiased truth I head straight to CTB.

At least what he is saying in this thread makes sense, almost everything posted in this thread simply does not make sense logically. Also character assassination ftw! You don't refute anything he says, you just go "haha he's dishonest!" I'm inclined to believe him much more than you for the sake that you just said something that has to be false, either your 'rebuttal' of my "first" or your response to my "second."

Terra Prime's disbandment is not the poster child for proof of Karma's hypocrisy and using our name to advance your agenda is disrespectful to this dead alliance and the good name it once had.

Simply explain then the actual reasons for disbandment. Since outrageous demanded reps are not the reason, there is something else at play there (unless you had such a weak community that the mere prospect of reps was enough to destroy it, which according to the responses is not the case). But that means about 90% of the "oh karma is soo bad" are based off false statements that you are not even trying to refute. So whether or not you want it, Terra Prime has become a martyr.

[enderland]

Having to chose between bill lock and destruction and becoming a tech farm left you with little choice. The TSI thread confirms what they had in store for you, disbandment was as good as forced on you.

Having to choose between thinking and posting without thinking left you with little choice. This post confirms what you had in store for you, posting naively was as good as forced on you.

[Firkked]

As former MoIA for Terra Prime I can say that the main force that disbanded the alliance was Ennui and the following is my personal opinion and observations.

The highest membership mark that Terra Prime hit was 74 nations and just shy of 700,000 NS. The rush to grow had over extended the capabilities and cohesiveness of the alliance as a whole. The gains that we made were ephemeral when this war showed everyone that such gains mean little if they are not consolidated and managed properly. Our top 4 nations handed out over $100 million in less than 9 weeks to help our young nations grow, but it meant nothing in the end.

After two mergers in 3 months and a turnover of no less than 6 key government members and the loss of 20% of the total merged members by the start of this year the internal communications between the general membership and government members was far from smooth, effective and responsive. Several avenues were being pursued to increase alliance participation and activity when it became obvious that this war would be fought soon.

While preparing for this war, with Septer doing double duty as the head of TP and MoD mind you, the membership was told that war was coming. In the 48 hours prior to issuing our joint DoW the government again messaged the membership to be ready for war. Out of the 50 members we had a few that either communicated their disagreement with any CB we may have had, resulting in either that member leaving or entering peace mode; a few stated that they were not able to be available to attack immediately and would follow in behind the initial attacks. The rest gave no indication that there was any reason they would not carry out instructions.

In the first 12 hours of our DoW only 6 nations out of 48 had attacked our enemies, 14 in the first 24 hours and no more than 30 members participated in TP's war.

By day 3 of the war we had 3 nations who did not participate in attacks leave without any word. At this time TSI and TP brokered a white peace with White Tree, also 1 PC nation and 1 IS nation declared on 2 TP nations.

When CCC brokered peace the impression was that this covered all opponents from our DoW, a little over 48 hours later the situation was clarified that this only involved CCC not TFO, although the IS nation did agree to declare peace in their individual battle in which no shots were fired.

At this point both the general membership and individuals involved in government fractured in their opinions as to pursuing a course towards peace or war, Septer did his best to hold things together when he came to the negotiation table but it was already too late. He was tired and frustrated that the alliance he willed into existence and had kept together for over 9 months had fallen apart.

I do not blame our members nor Septer nor my fellow government members. Our opponents do not deserve most of the comments made here either and the Karma movement played no part in our demise. As I stated earlier: this was a "general confluence of events".

TFO did not force TP to disband, for the body of TP was already in the grave. They merely chiseled the date in our headstone and threw some dirt over us all.

Edit: Corrected some figures for inaccuracies and added content in summation

Edited May 5, 2009 by Firkked

[The Incredible Hulk]

Firkked's right you know.

[Roadie]

There were no proceedings.

TFO (specifically Cowen70) said, without consulting me: "well we'd like reps but i have to talk to CTB"

TP disbanded

I talked to TP and asked them if they were sure about disbanding, after clarifying that no reps had actually been asked for. Septer was set on disbanding his alliance as a knee jerk reaction to the mere prospect of paying reps, without any reps even being negotiated. I asked if he was dead set on the course of action, he said yes, Tempest said yes, so I moved on. Why should I care more about Septer's alliance than he does?

I don't know why I even bother.

Anyone who is still unsure what role PC may or may not have played in this need look no further than the post I'm quoting.

While I generally attempt to avoid defending my enemies during war, I have to say ctb has always been well known to be up front and honest.

[Jens of the desert]

I can only shake my head at statements like these.

TP, sorry to see you go, though I don't think it was necessary. Have fun all individual TP nations, and good luck in the future.

Don't believe everything you read on the internet. That goes for a lot of people here

[Firkked]

And I apologize for my remark casting aspersions on CTB's character.

[OneBallMan]

There were no proceedings.

TFO (specifically Cowen70) said, without consulting me: "well we'd like reps but i have to talk to CTB"

TP disbanded

I talked to TP and asked them if they were sure about disbanding, after clarifying that no reps had actually been asked for. Septer was set on disbanding his alliance as a knee jerk reaction to the mere prospect of paying reps, without any reps even being negotiated. I asked if he was dead set on the course of action, he said yes, Tempest said yes, so I moved on. Why should I care more about Septer's alliance than he does?

I don't know why I even bother.

Believe this man, he tells the truth. I am sorry to see TP go, as I was sorry to see TSI and Soldier have their internal implosions. Having been in the very similar situation where someone with the authority to tell you tells you that they are disbanding, well, even when you ask and re-ask they still say it? Gotta take them at their word on it. (Looking at PURGE on that one).

If there is one thing I know, it is that any Culture Club alliance that demands reps from an alliance that honored treaties is pretty scummy. I know that CTB is not that way. I also hope that those responsible for the SSSW18 insult are next on PC's hitlist.

[Shurukian]

Believe this man, he tells the truth. I am sorry to see TP go, as I was sorry to see TSI and Soldier have their internal implosions.

Woah woah, we don't have any internal Implosions. >_> I think you might have put down the wrong alliance for that one OBM.

[Kevin Cash]

are people still debating this? i thought the tsi terms made it rather clear what tp was facing... probably were told basically to pay terms they couldnt pay or someone else would hit them hard, and they decided the only way to avoid starting over from square one was to disband.

at any rate, it is a poor showing from pc and their protectorates. though they might have gotten away if either one of these threads was posted by itself, when you put them together it paints a stunningly clear picture of the kind of alliances we are dealing with, the kind of folks who extort protectorates with no concern over whether or not they kill off innocent, fledgling alliances.

i for one am holding out hope that those honorable elements of karma (maybe about 50% of the total karma ns) turn on these scumbags and teach them a lesson, and in such prove to the world that they truly stand against this kind of behavior and arent simply using it as an excuse to make a run for the top spot.

[enderland]

are people still debating this? i thought the tsi terms made it rather clear what tp was facing... probably were told basically to pay terms they couldnt pay or someone else would hit them hard, and they decided the only way to avoid starting over from square one was to disband.

at any rate, it is a poor showing from pc and their protectorates. though they might have gotten away if either one of these threads was posted by itself, when you put them together it paints a stunningly clear picture of the kind of alliances we are dealing with, the kind of folks who extort protectorates with no concern over whether or not they kill off innocent, fledgling alliances.

i for one am holding out hope that those honorable elements of karma (maybe about 50% of the total karma ns) turn on these scumbags and teach them a lesson, and in such prove to the world that they truly stand against this kind of behavior and arent simply using it as an excuse to make a run for the top spot.

You should read the last page before making yourself look like an idiot.

Like, seriously consider it.

[Gears of War]

are people still debating this? i thought the tsi terms made it rather clear what tp was facing... probably were told basically to pay terms they couldnt pay or someone else would hit them hard, and they decided the only way to avoid starting over from square one was to disband.

at any rate, it is a poor showing from pc and their protectorates. though they might have gotten away if either one of these threads was posted by itself, when you put them together it paints a stunningly clear picture of the kind of alliances we are dealing with, the kind of folks who extort protectorates with no concern over whether or not they kill off innocent, fledgling alliances.

i for one am holding out hope that those honorable elements of karma (maybe about 50% of the total karma ns) turn on these scumbags and teach them a lesson, and in such prove to the world that they truly stand against this kind of behavior and arent simply using it as an excuse to make a run for the top spot.

Apparently you missed this post:

There were no proceedings.

TFO (specifically Cowen70) said, without consulting me: "well we'd like reps but i have to talk to CTB"

TP disbanded

I talked to TP and asked them if they were sure about disbanding, after clarifying that no reps had actually been asked for. Septer was set on disbanding his alliance as a knee jerk reaction to the mere prospect of paying reps, without any reps even being negotiated. I asked if he was dead set on the course of action, he said yes, Tempest said yes, so I moved on. Why should I care more about Septer's alliance than he does?

I don't know why I even bother.

But by all means please continue you baseless trolling, don't let "facts" get in your way.

[whatevefr]

Sad to see you go.

[Kevin Cash]

Apparently you missed this post:

But by all means please continue you baseless trolling, don't let "facts" get in your way.

1) youre asking me to believe ctb, a gov member of poison clan... i dont see why i should, given that i am, you know, accusing him and his alliance of dishonesty among other crimes. though i suppose he was rather upfront about using rad as leverage to extort tsi...

2) even if they were having internal issues, a white peace would have granted them time to, possibly, sort out their difficulties. instead it is clear tfo was intent on extorting tp as they had later extorted tsi in the other thread (that other thread is what some would call 'evidence' but feel free to ignore the facts), leaving tp, in its severely weakened state, no choice but to disband

sue me for putting 2 and 2 together

[Vilien]

1) youre asking me to believe ctb, a gov member of poison clan... i dont see why i should, given that i am, you know, accusing him and his alliance of dishonesty among other crimes. though i suppose he was rather upfront about using rad as leverage to extort tsi...

2) even if they were having internal issues, a white peace would have granted them time to, possibly, sort out their difficulties. instead it is clear tfo was intent on extorting tp as they had later extorted tsi in the other thread (that other thread is what some would call 'evidence' but feel free to ignore the facts), leaving tp, in its severely weakened state, no choice but to disband

sue me for putting 2 and 2 together

Due to your complete lack of evidence, perspective, and common sense, I am inclined to write off everything that you say. If you could provide any of the aforementioned qualities to your arguments, it might mean that you weren't simply trolling senselessly. Of course, that might be asking for too much.

[Kevin Cash]

Due to your complete lack of evidence, perspective, and common sense, I am inclined to write off everything that you say. If you could provide any of the aforementioned qualities to your arguments, it might mean that you weren't simply trolling senselessly. Of course, that might be asking for too much.

(that other thread is what some would call 'evidence' but feel free to ignore the facts)

:slowclap:

[OneBallMan]

Woah woah, we don't have any internal Implosions. >_> I think you might have put down the wrong alliance for that one OBM.

Woooops. I was thinking of IRAN. I think. Sorry bout that.

[Strykewolf]

As former MoIA for Terra Prime I can say that the main force that disbanded the alliance was Ennui and the following is my personal opinion and observations.

The highest membership mark that Terra Prime hit was 74 nations and just shy of 700,000 NS. The rush to grow had over extended the capabilities and cohesiveness of the alliance as a whole. The gains that we made were ephemeral when this war showed everyone that such gains mean little if they are not consolidated and managed properly. Our top 4 nations handed out over $100 million in less than 9 weeks to help our young nations grow, but it meant nothing in the end.

After two mergers in 3 months and a turnover of no less than 6 key government members and the loss of 20% of the total merged members by the start of this year the internal communications between the general membership and government members was far from smooth, effective and responsive. Several avenues were being pursued to increase alliance participation and activity when it became obvious that this war would be fought soon.

While preparing for this war, with Septer doing double duty as the head of TP and MoD mind you, the membership was told that war was coming. In the 48 hours prior to issuing our joint DoW the government again messaged the membership to be ready for war. Out of the 50 members we had a few that either communicated their disagreement with any CB we may have had, resulting in either that member leaving or entering peace mode; a few stated that they were not able to be available to attack immediately and would follow in behind the initial attacks. The rest gave no indication that there was any reason they would not carry out instructions.

In the first 12 hours of our DoW only 6 nations out of 48 had attacked our enemies, 14 in the first 24 hours and no more than 30 members participated in TP's war.

By day 3 of the war we had 3 nations who did not participate in attacks leave without any word. At this time TSI and TP brokered a white peace with White Tree, also 1 PC nation and 1 IS nation declared on 2 TP nations.

When CCC brokered peace the impression was that this covered all opponents from our DoW, a little over 48 hours later the situation was clarified that this only involved CCC not TFO, although the IS nation did agree to declare peace in their individual battle in which no shots were fired.

At this point both the general membership and individuals involved in government fractured in their opinions as to pursuing a course towards peace or war, Septer did his best to hold things together when he came to the negotiation table but it was already too late. He was tired and frustrated that the alliance he willed into existence and had kept together for over 9 months had fallen apart.

I do not blame our members nor Septer nor my fellow government members. Our opponents do not deserve most of the comments made here either and the Karma movement played no part in our demise. As I stated earlier: this was a "general confluence of events".

TFO did not force TP to disband, for the body of TP was already in the grave. They merely chiseled the date in our headstone and threw some dirt over us all.

Edit: Corrected some figures for inaccuracies and added content in summation

Sounds like you folks ran into what was very nearly a perfect storm for any alliance.

o7

[enderland]

1) youre asking me to believe ctb, a gov member of poison clan... i dont see why i should, given that i am, you know, accusing him and his alliance of dishonesty among other crimes. though i suppose he was rather upfront about using rad as leverage to extort tsi...

2) even if they were having internal issues, a white peace would have granted them time to, possibly, sort out their difficulties. instead it is clear tfo was intent on extorting tp as they had later extorted tsi in the other thread (that other thread is what some would call 'evidence' but feel free to ignore the facts), leaving tp, in its severely weakened state, no choice but to disband

sue me for putting 2 and 2 together

You should have read this post.

Especially this part -

TFO did not force TP to disband

But meh, putting 2 and 2 together and getting 19 is cool too I guess.