NPO: Better With or Without?

[anenu]

Imagine if you will gentle person, a CN world where the NPO never existed.

There are 5000 players on the game.

New players are regularly tech raided and kept at low stats because there is no safe haven from the raiders, these players usually become discouraged and quit the game and give CN a poor reputation amongst the wider gaming community who stay away from it.

A few players with established nations have small alliances for mutual protection against huge well organised tech raiding alliances of up to 50 nations (considered huge by the standards of the game)

Consider the positive influence that the NPO has had on the game over the game, by opposing tech raiding alliances and providing a safe haven in the red sphere the game has become more newbie friendly and its player base has grown substantially as positive word of mouth from players has attracted their friends to the game and with the improved player base donations have risen allowing Admin to take the time to add in new and exciting features to the game.

CN has benefited considerably from the influence of the NPO and the CN world will be poorer place if they ever left.

First off FAN was anti raiding so you can't claim that as your idea.

Second, new nations that get tech raided don't know enough to go to red so they get raided anyway. (Unless of couse the standard raid battle cry has become "MOVE TO RED SO THIS WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN"

Third, why wouldn't their be 5000 players? The majority of these players come from off site boards. And if anything NPO "stabalizing" has caused people to quit as lets face it fighting an even war is more fun then attempting to take down a hegemony

Forth, well the tech raiding alliances are a bit far fetched.

Also i want to point out here that this is in argument to your statements not against NPO. Personally i don't like it when an alliance disbands because it means another little section of the world exist only as history.

[Xochi Marlaeu]

I voted yes, but it's nothing against the New Pacific Order specifically. I generally dislike all things that aren't the Amazon Nation and that aren't sending me money. Scratch that second part, actually.

[TehChron]

The Order I was a part of would never disband. Ever. Sorry for gravedigging, however...

The last time Pacifica was knocked down, it brushed itself off, learned where it had failed, and became far stronger for it. I can only hope that the same occurs after this.

For those of you who comment on the history of this place and don't know a thing, let me tell you something:

The reasons the CoaLUEtion did not enforce anything on Pacifica are two-fold: Fear and Pride.

Fear for the fact that Pacifica was rebounding prior to Legion delivering a master-stroke in it's blatant betrayal (a truly rare, bizarre oversight in it's history that Pacifica never forgot), and that keeping us down would have been far more costly than appreciated.

Pride at the fact that they believed themselves to be "Morally superior" to the Orders. And as such, they also underestimated them.

[Captain Fatbeard]

It was hard for me to choose between no NPO and cake, but ultimately I chose no NPO and that I'll just steal YOUR cake with my Somalian pirate crew.

edit - I'm normally against forcing people out of the cyberverse, but I make a special exception for Pacifica so there will be justice for all those that they unjustly forced out of the game.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Captain Fatbeard

[Drostan]

I think that the game would be better without NPO because then perhaps the entire politics surrounding it would not hinge on them. We are entering a period of war regardless of whether or not NPO is eliminated. I am curious to see where the sides land and who ends up at whose throats.

If you are going to argue that someone always takes NPO's place then their destruction poses no threat to tyranny. Those nations have to go somewhere and chances are it would be mostly IRON or something like that. Who knows, maybe a new alliance would form. I think it will be more interesting if NPO does cease to be. But I doubt that will happen as they are too firmly ingrained in the consciousness of even their enemies. For many, NPO is the yardstick by which evil on Planet Bob is measured. I think it would be fun to find a new yardstick but most people are far too unimaginative for that so I expect NPO will get some form of peace and be back knocking on our doors within a few months.

[Doug Falkner]

Eight centuries of dark ages?

And it wasn't until the rediscovery of Latin and Greek texts that spurred the Renaissance and the Enlightenment.

[Beauty]

No because i need someone to troll.

[Angrator]

I really hope they lose, but I would never want them to go away

[Haflinger]

Well, I'm pretty much on record opposing the disbandment of any alliance quite often.

Also what Näktergal and Thierra said.

[Randleman]

You offered a cake option, how could I refuse?

[Matthew Conrad]

Imagine if you will gentle person, a CN world where the NPO never existed.

There are 5000 players on the game.

New players are regularly tech raided and kept at low stats because there is no safe haven from the raiders, these players usually become discouraged and quit the game and give CN a poor reputation amongst the wider gaming community who stay away from it.

A few players with established nations have small alliances for mutual protection against huge well organised tech raiding alliances of up to 50 nations (considered huge by the standards of the game)

Consider the positive influence that the NPO has had on the game over the game, by opposing tech raiding alliances and providing a safe haven in the red sphere the game has become more newbie friendly and its player base has grown substantially as positive word of mouth from players has attracted their friends to the game and with the improved player base donations have risen allowing Admin to take the time to add in new and exciting features to the game.

CN has benefited considerably from the influence of the NPO and the CN world will be poorer place if they ever left.

I don't think any major alliance allows tech raiding anymore (correct me if I'm wrong). Furthermore, the Revenge Doctrine came long after the Moldavi Doctrine so it's not like your intentions were to protect innocent, little red nations from the get-go, although I will concede that the Revenge Doctrine was the right step in taking true responsibility for something you claim ownership over.

You can't honestly say, without a doubt, this game would be some sort of barren, barbaric wasteland without the NPO. I doubt no one else would have established a dominant alliance in the absence of NPO. Alliances weren't brought to the game by NPO, it was a natural evolution that began with friendships between nations to provide mutual protection from tech raids and eventually became large, well organized alliances.

[TehChron]

I don't think any major alliance allows tech raiding anymore (correct me if I'm wrong). Furthermore, the Revenge Doctrine came long after the Moldavi Doctrine so it's not like your intentions were to protect innocent, little red nations from the get-go, although I will concede that the Revenge Doctrine was the right step in taking true responsibility for something you claim ownership over.

You can't honestly say, without a doubt, this game would be some sort of barren, barbaric wasteland without the NPO. I doubt no one else would have established a dominant alliance in the absence of NPO. Alliances weren't brought to the game by NPO, it was a natural evolution that began with friendships between nations to provide mutual protection from tech raids and eventually became large, well organized alliances.

Your would-be ODN, GATO and Legion overlords would not have been us, I assure you.

We set the precedent for soveriegnty when we arrived. Everything else was just screwing around. Without the NPO to set standards in place for conduct beforehand, it would have been LUE and its ilk to have done it, trust me, you don't know a damn thing about the community back then. And I, unlike Markov there, can honestly say that without any doubt.

Edited May 10, 2009 by ReturnOfChron

[Matthew Conrad]

Your would-be ODN, GATO and Legion overlords would not have been us, I assure you.

We set the precedent for soveriegnty when we arrived. Everything else was just screwing around. Without the NPO to set standards in place for conduct beforehand, it would have been LUE and its ilk to have done it, trust me, you don't know a damn thing about the community back then. And I, unlike Markov there, can honestly say that without any doubt.

Granted, NPO may have sped up the process, but I believe the standards of conduct would have evolved over time into a similar fashion in which they currently exist. I base this theory on this observation:

OOC: Outside of CN, nation rulers are still civilized human beings within relatively similar communities in terms of basic conduct and rules. I doubt there are many, if any, people who can truly create and act in a different character from theirs in RL. Thus, I believe these naturally ingrained and bred tendencies would eventually overcome the effects on character the internet/anonymity has, eventually leading to a CN similar to now.

Keep in mind, many of those in LUE and CoaLUEtion filtered into now-existent alliances and I'm sure most behave in a civilized manner. I may have not actually been there during those days, but it doesn't take first hand experience to predict basic human behavior (something I do have experience with).

Edited for clarification.

Edited May 10, 2009 by Matthew Conrad

[Isaac Wolfe]

I only have one thing to say - Pacifica Delenda Est!

For those that don't speak, read, or write Latin; that means that Pacifica must be destroyed. Under no circumstance must they be allowed to return to prominence. They should suffer the fate of FAN, GOONS, and so many others. Francograd should be put to put to the torch, it's population put to the sword, and it's fields sown with salt. The Order should never be allowed to rise again.

They will only keep playing with us. They will only take us out one by one. They will destroy us all if we don't get them first.

No mercy. The ram has touched the wall. No turning back.

[TehChron]

Granted, NPO may have sped up the process, but I believe the standards of conduct would have evolved over time into a similar fashion in which they currently exist. I base this theory on this observation:

OOC: Outside of CN, nation rulers are still civilized human beings within relatively similar communities in terms of basic conduct and rules. I doubt there are many, if any, people who can truly create and act in a different character from theirs in RL. Thus, I believe these naturally ingrained and bred tendencies would eventually overcome the effects on character the internet/anonymity has, eventually leading to a CN similar to now.

Keep in mind, many of those in LUE and CoaLUEtion filtered into now-existent alliances and I'm sure most behave in a civilized manner. I may have not actually been there during those days, but it doesn't take first hand experience to predict basic human behavior (something I do have experience with).

Edited for clarification.

My point is you don't know what on Earth you are talking about.

The ODN initially had no cultural identity save to oppose us. GATO was spineless. Consistently.

The NAAC was led by a bunch of idiots that acted like Beavis and Butthead on the forums. Not to mention actually biased mods culled from their ranks at the time of our arrival, which instigated their overreach and removal.

The Legion only ever acted in imitation of us. Especially after GWI.

Before LUE, there would not have been a presence charismatic or powerful enough to set standards in the CN community before they got here. And Pacifica's entrenched standards are what forced their leadership to keep the more Gaotse-happy membership well leashed. Thus allowing cooler heads to take the reins.

[Matthew Conrad]

My point is you don't know what on Earth you are talking about.

The ODN initially had no cultural identity save to oppose us. GATO was spineless. Consistently.

The NAAC was led by a bunch of idiots that acted like Beavis and Butthead on the forums. Not to mention actually biased mods culled from their ranks at the time of our arrival, which instigated their overreach and removal.

The Legion only ever acted in imitation of us. Especially after GWI.

Before LUE, there would not have been a presence charismatic or powerful enough to set standards in the CN community before they got here. And Pacifica's entrenched standards are what forced their leadership to keep the more Gaotse-happy membership well leashed. Thus allowing cooler heads to take the reins.

I wasn't even referring to actual alliances in my last post, but I am incapable of having any sort of intelligence without being there right?

I put forth the notion based on natural tendencies exhibited by everyone, whether you like it or not. Maybe the barbarity would have taken over, maybe not. You cannot put forth an absolute statement unless you have a time machine and went back to prevent NPO from ever being created in order to see what happens (Sounds a bit like Terminator huh? )

OOC: NPO originated from another "world". She was not present when it was first created and that "world" had established civilization and morals that are at least similar to ours. NPO was definitely not the first alliance there and it developed just fine. It's not like devotion to an alliance or off-site forums are only inherent to NPO. Just because NPO did it first here doesn't mean it wouldn't have happened eventually. Many other alliances also came from off-boards eventually and some had pretty good orginization from the get-go without even knowing the existence of NPO. Our culture here, in general, is not much different from others. Such needs and morals are bred into our nature.

Once again, there is the possibility that we would have a completely, unrecognizable world from today. However, it is also very possible that similar morals and habits/traits would have eventually risen with or without NPO.

[TehChron]

I wasn't even referring to actual alliances in my last post, but I am incapable of having any sort of intelligence without being there right?

I put forth the notion based on natural tendencies exhibited by everyone, whether you like it or not. Maybe the barbarity would have taken over, maybe not. You cannot put forth an absolute statement unless you have a time machine and went back to prevent NPO from ever being created in order to see what happens (Sounds a bit like Terminator huh? )

OOC: NPO originated from another "world". She was not present when it was first created and that "world" had established civilization and morals that are at least similar to ours. NPO was definitely not the first alliance there and it developed just fine. It's not like devotion to an alliance or off-site forums are only inherent to NPO. Just because NPO did it first here doesn't mean it wouldn't have happened eventually. Many other alliances also came from off-boards eventually and some had pretty good orginization from the get-go without even knowing the existence of NPO. Our culture here, in general, is not much different from others. Such needs and morals are bred into our nature.

Once again, there is the possibility that we would have a completely, unrecognizable world from today. However, it is also very possible that similar morals and habits/traits would have eventually risen with or without NPO.

The morals became generalized because through sheer force of personality, we enforced them.

Spying? We beat the !@#$ out of alliances we caught doing it.

Being my idols to others in general? Beat the !@#$ out of them too. If you wanted to talk trash about an alliance pre-GWI, you needed to do it off-forum or in PMs.

Those kinds of morals were enforced by us...No one else had the will or drive to impose those standards. We did. LUE had the force of will to propagate their standards of decency, and to a large extent, that was what GWI started about. The fact of the matter is, the very standards of decency you enjoy now on these forums, were allowed to take firm root because of what we Pacificans brought with us when we founded the NPO.

If we had not, there would have been no one to do so by the time LUE arrived, and by then, the gross-happy folks wouldn't have been needed to be kept reined in in fear of pissing off Pacifica and instigating a war before they were ready. The forums would have been shut down due to invisionfree violations, and the healthy forum conversations you and I are having now would never have happened.

Again, you have no idea what you're talking about. Drop it.

[Matthew Conrad]

Time does wonders. You are assuming LUE would have kept an iron grip and set the tone of Bob for an indefinite amount of time in the absence of NPO. Who is to say another off-board invasion (there are plenty of other boards) wouldn't have happened and established a similar set of order as we have today? Once again, you assume because NPO did it first, it was the only one capable of doing so. Although, I'll say that spying may have been viewed differently but it's still condoned by more people than you think.

[West of Eden]

I'll say that spying may have been viewed differently but it's still condoned by more people than you think.

I certainly condone it, why not? Nobody gets hurt, someone just gets info. Spying is apparently bad morally but telling someone you'll do a tech deal with them or something such if they send you 3 mil and then never sending them the tech is fine. I've seen the later quite a few times now.

In response to the OP, better with.

Edited May 10, 2009 by West of Eden

[TehChron]

Time does wonders. You are assuming LUE would have kept an iron grip and set the tone of Bob for an indefinite amount of time in the absence of NPO. Who is to say another off-board invasion (there are plenty of other boards) wouldn't have happened and established a similar set of order as we have today? Once again, you assume because NPO did it first, it was the only one capable of doing so. Although, I'll say that spying may have been viewed differently but it's still condoned by more people than you think.

Once again, you're missing what Im saying.

The NPO Set the standard of what was "acceptable behavior". At least publically.

Had the NPO never came into being, those standards would not have come into being, and LUE would have been allowed free reign with its more unsavory memberships violating Invisionfree ToS, and possibly destroying the game. That's how serious it was back then even when LUE *was* afraid to piss us off.

If all you focus on is spying and military force, you're so blind to the larger picture that it's not even worth my time to try and educate you.

[Matthew Conrad]

I'm certainly not the one who brought up spying...

Culture is usually set by those who rule militarily, but that's besides the point. Also, I have not, in any way, argued with you that NPO set the standard for what is "acceptable behavior".

My point is that someone else could have also done it if NPO never existed. My point is (directed towards who I originally quoted but you may have lost sight of) someone could have seen what LUE was doing and come in after wards, pulling an NPO of sorts. You speak in absolutes as if there were no other possible outcomes in lieu of NPO whereas I'm just putting forth other possible happenings. I'm not even arguing with you about the history of events, I'm saying that things could have happened differently from Markov's scenario without NPO.

I completely understand your point: NPO created the behavior by which we discourse today. LUE's behavior would have presented a more chaotic world.

If you find yourself arrogant enough to assume myself so unworthy of your intellectual greatness then fine, don't answer this ignorant peasant.

[TehChron]

I'm certainly not the one who brought up spying...

Culture is usually set by those who rule militarily, but that's besides the point. Also, I have not, in any way, argued with you that NPO set the standard for what is "acceptable behavior".

My point is that someone else could have also done it if NPO never existed. My point is (directed towards who I originally quoted but you may have lost sight of) someone could have seen what LUE was doing and come in after wards, pulling an NPO of sorts. You speak in absolutes as if there were no other possible outcomes in lieu of NPO whereas I'm just putting forth other possible happenings. I'm not even arguing with you about the history of events, I'm saying that things could have happened differently from Markov's scenario without NPO.

I completely understand your point: NPO created the behavior by which we discourse today. LUE's behavior would have presented a more chaotic world.

If you find yourself arrogant enough to assume myself so unworthy of your intellectual greatness then fine, don't answer this ignorant peasant.

My first reply was pointing out that that would never have happened. Period. The other prominent alliances at the time would not have had the power or drive to do so like we did.

LUE, had it not been forced to restrain itself due to the threat of a Pacifican smackdown, would not have been able to restrain its initial hotheads, leading to mass gross, and a deletion due to invisionfree ToS violations.

That would have wrecked the game. Because just because the Invisionfree forums would have been deleted, doesnt mean that the gross posters would have stopped. They would have kept coming back, until it would have just been too much. That was an actual threat back then.

You miss my point completely, despite my constant reiterations of it. I frankly don't understand how that's intellectually possible.

[Bill Wallace]

Voted No. It's just a game and NPO makes the game interesting. What fun would Star Wars have been with no evil Empire?

The NPO will be around for a long time.

[Matthew Conrad]

Just because you keep saying I miss your point is won't make it true. I find it intellectual boggling that you are that arrogant in your assertions that you somehow miss or just can't understand the content of my posts. I'm not even talking about the forums. I have literally not contested the issue about the forums.

Once again, to reiterate for the 2nd time, I'm not talking about the other alliances at the time doing what NPO did. I'm talking about a hypothetical alliance who would have basically filled the spot NPO had after the situation you put forth.

You're probably right that such posters would have gotten loose and hurt the game for a while.

It's you who is blind to my point as you are not addressing the hypothetical rise of an NPO-like alliance after wards (possibly not even consisting of members of current alliances at that time). You are addressing it as if only the current alliances at the time were the only ones who could control CN politics. You completely miss the possibility of another alliance setting a similar standard of behavior, opposing LUE, and them keeping out the "lulz posters". In this situation, bad behavior wouldn't have shut the game down before the arrival of said alliance. Thus, forums would be able to start up again, even if the old ones were deleted. I'm not even saying this would definitely happen, just that it might.

EDIT: NVM, not going to go into petty stuff like that.

Edited May 10, 2009 by Matthew Conrad

[TehChron]

Just because you keep saying I miss your point is won't make it true. I find it intellectual boggling that you are that arrogant in your assertions that you somehow miss or just can't understand the content of my posts. I'm not even talking about the forums. I have literally not contested the issue about the forums.

Once again, to reiterate for the 2nd time, I'm not talking about the other alliances at the time doing what NPO did. I'm talking about a hypothetical alliance who would have basically filled the spot NPO had after the situation you put forth.

You're probably right that such posters would have gotten loose and hurt the game for a while.

It's you who is blind to my point as you are not addressing the hypothetical rise of an NPO-like alliance after wards (possibly not even consisting of members of current alliances at that time). You are addressing it as if only the current alliances at the time were the only ones who could control CN politics. You completely miss the possibility of another alliance setting a similar standard of behavior, opposing LUE, and them keeping out the "lulz posters". In this situation, bad behavior wouldn't have shut the game down before the arrival of said alliance. Thus, forums would be able to start up again, even if the old ones were deleted. I'm not even saying this would definitely happen, just that it might.

EDIT: NVM, not going to go into petty stuff like that.

Talking in hypotheticals regarding history that actually occurred is a waste of time.

"Some unknown individual may have arrived and changed everything. WE MAY NEVER KNOW!?!?"

That's stupid. You're not even claiming anything, just making a baseless, unfounded statement that is devoid of any content.

The only force NPO-enough in its disposition capable of doing anything had the game survived an unfiltered LUE gross assault would have been FAN, and that would not have occurred for at least six months after LUE had arrived, and even longer before they were strong enough to take on a position powerful enough to enforce anything.

Let me tell you something...You know who advanced military strategy development in CN? Who introduced those things and made GWI itself a possibility? The NPO. Our R&D is what advanced gameplay. Our leaked game guides, our shared secrets with allies that would betray us, our emulators, all of that, was ultimately linked back to us.

Even FAN as a hypothetical NPO-like entity would likely not have become so fearsome anywhere near as fast had it not been for Pacifica. Let alone have the diplomatic finesse required to challenge the undisputed masters of the Cyberverse. Let me remind you again, all those big alliances? They were peaceniks, and uninterested in warfare, save the ODN in which case it wanted to eliminate the NPO. So, there would not have been any actual military conflicts going on, and this is even considering that CN would still possess a forum at this point. Or working at all.

You claim to not be contesting the issue of the forums. Thats nice, but what exactly are you contesting? What exactly is your belief founded upon? From what I can tell, it's nothing.

Once more, hypothesizing about generalized fantasies is stupid. And trying to defend that waste of time is even more stupid. And then attempting to present such ideas as legitimate historical analyses is the most stupid of all.