SCM's Rant against (almost) everyone

[Epik High]

While I agree to a point on most of the things you said. Trolling is a part of this game, and can be an extremely effective one if hundreds of people do it. It causes the other side to lose moral and try to get out of the war anyway they can. As for peace terms, I think white peace could be given to many alliances but if I was in charge all I would ask is what NPO has asked FAN, NAAC and countless other alliances. Move to Pink. If they do that I say white peace for everyone else.

I think the type of trolling the OP was referring to was the excessive type that makes you and your alliance look like immature idiots, making people less inclined to want to align with such obnoxious folk.

Also, I can agree with the points made in the OP, though perhaps not on the same level of rage. But I think we are giving the crap general membership says too much credit (there are bad apples on both sides) and I think in the end, the alliance leaders with actual responsibility will end this war reasonably.

[Qaianna]

I think the type of trolling the OP was referring to was the excessive type that makes you and your alliance look like immature idiots, making people less inclined to want to align with such obnoxious folk.

Also, I can agree with the points made in the OP, though perhaps not on the same level of rage. But I think we are giving the crap general membership says too much credit (there are bad apples on both sides) and I think in the end, the alliance leaders with actual responsibility will end this war reasonably.

Would you reccommend alliances trying to control that sort of thing?

[Hegemon Rob]

good stuff

[brass]

I can understand SCM's post, it's one of the more coherent ones I've read of late. 8/10 for the rant.

One problem with the rant is assuming the war is already won. To be unconditionally victorious will take at least 2 months, where strategy is far more important that tactics. In the last year, there has not been a war lasting longer than the "Tactics" stage (2 weeks tops). There isn't a Solid way of saying who will win until about the middle of the 3rd week, unless generally horrible players are on one side, which isn't the case here.

Terms? I'll speak from personal experience here: Those offered to NPO were "do-able". I don't know, 90% of FAN lived with the very minimum troops for 2 months and 27 days. We recovered well in that time, only to be attacked again for too many soldiers, some improvements, and somebody with tanks (8 of latter infringements were "ghosts", and dropped the FAN AA when the war started). So no, I do not think the original terms were so harsh that they could not be followed. The current state of war with several alliances vs. FAN and "peace terms" of "Die." are a bit harsh, which is why the war hasn't ended.

I personally would not give those terms ("Die.") to NPO, even though FAN is still living through them.

As far as Karma's reason for war, NPO realized it had angered a large group, and wouldn't have the 3:1 advantage it has relied on for over 2 years. The terms were stated as non-negotiable, and should have been listed, and a yes/no answer, with no stalling in between and picking about things that didn't matter, since if one was rejected, all would be. FAN has been in similar discussions with NPO a few times (as an ally, and as an enemy). Archon was extremely generous and patient with NPO, compared to the way NPO "Negotiates". In addition, Karma at least tried to offer a way out for NPO, rather than simply attacking, which was the standard practice of the 1V crowd. They were large enough to revise history as needed later, which, among other factors, is what allowed them to continue their practices for such a long time.

Spying? When you have a large number of alliances trying to annihilate your alliance, espionage is the only practical weapon. If FAN gets peace, and is free to grow again unhindered and unmolested, we would no longer be forced to hide who we are, and can be a happy family again.

When reading the "History Of CN", keep in mind that the winners write the history. The events may be generally correct, but all information that may taint the image of the authors is omitted. This applies to History of Anything, from a single alliance forming, to real life. By the same token, Propaganda Works. If people see/hear the same thing often enough, they will start to doubt themselves and believe the propaganda. This explains the "hate" you see on the forums here, mostly, it isn't personal hate. In every war I've fought, I've generally had a good exchange in PM with the other side. Surprisingly, they are humans too, and most of them are decent.

[kingzog]

Would you reccommend alliances trying to control that sort of thing?

I wouldn't. I think individual members should have the opportunity to rant and rave as much as possible. For one thing, it allows them to let off some steam.

Becuase of game mechanics, all of us are soldiers to one degree or another. Soldiers do not make policy. Their job is to fight and kill until there's nothing left to fight and kill.

However, some of us are both politicians and soldiers.There is a very important distinction here, because those of us who are politicians in one way or another are obliged to look at the so-called bigger picture. Our comments must be measured. They must be appropriate. Even when we are angry, there is a limit to what we can say; a limit that does not exist for soldiers.

So let them be angry. Let them rail against one side or the other. Assuming they do not possess the means to make good on their threat, it's harmless.

[Rebel Virginia]

So, how will you feel about us after the war? (I won't go into guessing which way it will go; let's keep it civil.)

I'm going to hope you've been humbled, and will let your actions after the war dictate my opinion of you.

[JoshuaR]

Pretty rant, SCM. I think the important things to take from it are, in my order of importance:

1. FAN and any other alliance that has been banished from the game be set free. If they don't come back, they don't come back. But, FAN personally would appreciate this.

2. Lenient surrender terms. I'm not sure we necessarily have to go with White Peace, but you are right. Anything more is unnecessary, assuming the sides remain as they are. Sure, the Hegemony is fighting the MOST EVEN WAR IN HISTORY (as far as I can remember, honestly), but they do have a slight disadvantage which will play out over time, if the sides stay as they are. Of course, as long as the "Hegemony" stays together and keeps fighting, they will bring such utter destruction and ruin that both sides will be happy for a white peace. (Oh, side note, if I do have to help rebuild you, you better damn well accept some reps, SCM! lol)

3. Uh, I got distracted and forgot what I was typing. I'll just say that yeah, we shouldn't hate the enemy and wish upon them utter destruction blah blah. But in the IC parts of the forum, we should! (So at that point I disagree with you. It's fair to be bitter forum enemies as long as people aren't silly enough to carry that to reality, though of course I'm sure many are.)

4. Yeah, karma be kareful not to be like hegemony. The peace talks were alright in they didn't negotiate, but hypocritical in that they said 20% soldiers and "made up" CB. Shoulda just not had the talks and let the damn war proceed.

5. Okay, I don't think I have a rant in me. Going to go away now.

[Starcraftmazter]

GW2 and 3 were more even in terms of NS involved at least. But that was ages ago, UJW and NoCB war as well as everything in between was a joke in regards to odds. This war is not.

Two points I'll address, I'm not saying that alliances should be Ned Flanders nice to each other, and certainly there is a propaganda aspect to every war, but what I am against is hateful and nonsensical/pointless posts, like, "GGA HAS ONLY 2 WRCS, YOU GUYS FAIL AT LIFE LOLOLOLOLOL".

And the second, yeh - white peace. In my case, given we expect to do at least as much damage to NATO as they do to us - and hopefully more - and as both of us declared war to follow treaties, I just can't come up with any logical reason to impose terms or demand reps. Besides, who needs reps when you have friends like ours

[Anu Drake]

Good rant, my friend, and enjoyable to read. It was like a stream of consciousness version of what I was trying to say, from a different perspective.

And you have NOTHING to apologize to NATO for, this is war. You defended your allies, you were right on top of me when we declared and you have fought a fun and devastating war so far. Seriously, Dark Fist should be commended for their skill.

I don't think we'll be getting peace overall, but if lightening should strike and the tables turn, NATO will absolutely give Dark Fist white peace. You didn't reduce our enjoyment of the war at all, you were on the spot and quick to respond.

o/ SCM

[Starcraftmazter]

Thanks Anu

Also, I missed your post earlier brass;

Terms? I'll speak from personal experience here: Those offered to NPO were "do-able". I don't know, 90% of FAN lived with the very minimum troops for 2 months and 27 days. We recovered well in that time, only to be attacked again for too many soldiers, some improvements, and somebody with tanks (8 of latter infringements were "ghosts", and dropped the FAN AA when the war started). So no, I do not think the original terms were so harsh that they could not be followed.

I don't think NPO attacked you at 2 months and 27 days, because on that day someone happened to have more than 20% troops and NPO just so happened to catch them. I will always remember that DoW, and as you mentioned, all other non-troop violations (which were also insignificant) were ghosts - planted by NPO probably. It was clearly planned either from the beginning, or because FAN was making such an amazing recovery after the initial war ended. IMO FAN set the precedent for MK and others later on - they hurt NPO very badly with nukes, and proved that it's possible to recover fast after defeat - even after a prolonged war. NPO was threatened by this, and wanted to make sure this behaviour would not be repeated, hence they decided to put an end to FAN as a way of setting an example for everyone.

I have no clue why the Karma alliances negotiating peace with NPO set the condition for 20% soldiers, but AFAIK this is something which does not happen anymore, as surrender terms these days often state 30% (or around) for leniency and/or include binding conditions for the negotiation and resolution of violations - and even Q alliances have done this in the past from what I remember. Why Karma's troop level condition had neither of these things truly baffles me. I don't want to even consider that alliances like GR, Vanguard, Athens, VE and others who attacked NPO would have anything to do with the possibility doing to NPO what it did to FAN over their "violation" of terms, but I don't see any logical reason for 20% of soldiers as opposed to 30% of soldiers either - given that 30% soldiers would be much easier to follow for NPO's nations and much easier to impose by NPO's gov and it makes absolutely no other difference in any way whatsoever, that truly leaves me completely clueless as to what Karma's intentions were with that.

I agree with NPO when they say that Karma went into negotiations, knowing that their terms are skewed, and would not be accepted. I don't think NPO stalled any more than Karma did by not listing the terms all at once as opposed to individually, thereby forcing NPO to try and figure out what each term meant one by one. Doing this, they virtually eliminated any possibility for real negotiations, as they forced NPO to either accept every term quickly or not get peace at all. And I understand that the terms are non-negotiable - but as I've just said with the troop numbers, they clearly required some clarification to say the least. Furthermore, with the NPO's CB against OV term, Moo and Zhadum had some moderately good points - though I'm not saying I agree with NPO's CB, but if they wanted to word it in a different way which was also true, so long as Karma considered it to be true, I don't see why they couldn't compromise on this. I think the use of arbitrators during these negotiations ultimately had a very bad effect for how they played out as well, because this removed what little chance NPO had left to negotiate or clarify the conditions, as attempts by NPO to do almost anything other than blindly accept terms were simply met with the reaffirmation of the fact that they were non-negotiable. I think it would have been better if the leaders could directly talk to each other.

Oh and on that note, I obviously don't blame Archon, Tyga or any of the other arbitrators as I realise that they were in fact just arbitrators, and did not make any decisions. They all did a good job IMO.

I am not saying NPO's terms were completely unacceptable either, but reasonably speaking, if I was moo, I would not accept them - and I would certainly be extremely suspicious about the 20% soldier term. NPO's enemies accepted far worse terms in the past no doubt - but again, I don't see how this is relevant, as I believe the whole point of Karma is to not follow NPO's horrible precedent. At least I for one certainly think it should be.

I would love for someone who was negotiating on the Karma side to give their perspective here and to address my points.

Edited April 25, 2009 by Starcraftmazter

[ChairmanHal]

We're going to step slightly away from the gaming table for this one...

First I'll address the part aimed at us because it's really quite ludicrous. This is not your war, this is our war.

Perhaps the most arrogant thing I'll hear during the entirety of this conflict. That's a powerful statement considering some of the absolutely eye rolling remarks made on both sides. Yes, Airme, Toga, I'm looking at you. Vox is a sideshow to the grand theater being played out, a few paragraphs in the longer book of this war. I was in the IRC channels where this war was made. You were not present. No one from Vox was present. You and your comrades were off trying to embarrass NPO yet again. If this is *your* war at all, it is because you manage to utilize the war features of this game. Congrats on getting your piece little of history.

It's funny that you talk about how people need to treat this like a game but you denounce spying, which is one of the most dynamic and exciting aspects of the game. We have shaken up the stagnant piece of crap community that your complacency has built. Don't you dare condescend to us for having the nads to do what nobody else has managed in this game's history. You don't need our help? BS. You're here because of us; we played our part in this just as you are now playing yours.

Like when you came by the Rok IRC channel and queried me because you had managed to recruit away one of our members because you had promised him a Senate seat. Then you proceeded to attempt to black mail Rok to make sure we didn't attack him afterward. Showed your true colors that day.

No sir, long before your grandstanding, long before Electron Sponge became a "born again resistance fighter", there were people talking about this war. How it would be impossible until Polaris were subdued or at least willing to step aside. What it would take to actually pull off. The real heroes, if there are any, are people like Van Hoo III, who spent hour after hour of his time talking to people about this project and taking our hypothetical conversations over IRC and turning them into reality. People like Xiph and Big_Z of GOD, who picked up the pieces after Van Hoo departed the game briefly and carried on his work, expanding the list of alliances that were will to participate. The representatives from Fark, who sat quietly mostly--but when they talked, summed up in a few lines what some of us were taking line after line of text to say. Gen_Lee of Ragnarok who stepped up after I left Rok in disgust over internal matters and provided forceful leadership and lent his charisma to the project. The leadership of MHA, VE and Sparta, who could have quite easily have taken the easy road but instead opted for the difficult path that led to war--a war that was by no means guaranteed to end in victory and still may not.

The rest of your rant is simply dumb.

Actually it makes a lot of sense. A hell of a lot of sense. Do I agree with every line of it? No. But it deserves due consideration, not pompous dismissal.

Get a grip. We all have the power to change the face of this game and it's not going to be by frothing rants in the OOC forum.

Yes we do...and I thought that frothing rants, IC or OOC, were your specialty. Professional jealousy or merely looking for more air time on CN Radio? Never mind, I know the answer.

[Doitzel]

I don't think NPO attacked you at 2 months and 27 days, because on that day someone happened to have more than 20% troops and NPO just so happened to catch them. I will always remember that DoW, and as you mentioned, all other non-troop violations (which were also insignificant) were ghosts - planted by NPO probably. It was clearly planned either from the beginning, or because FAN was making such an amazing recovery after the initial war ended. IMO FAN set the precedent for MK and others later on - they hurt NPO very badly with nukes, and proved that it's possible to recover fast after defeat - even after a prolonged war. NPO was threatened by this, and wanted to make sure this behaviour would not be repeated, hence they decided to put an end to FAN as a way of setting an example for everyone.

I was there. We declared because we needed to "keep them down". The surrender terms were made to be violated in the first place, just like LUE's GWII surrender terms.

Perhaps the most arrogant thing I'll hear during the entirety of this conflict. That's a powerful statement considering some of the absolutely eye rolling remarks made on both sides. Yes, Airme, Toga, I'm looking at you. Vox is a sideshow to the grand theater being played out, a few paragraphs in the longer book of this war. I was in the IRC channels where this war was made. You were not present. No one from Vox was present. You and your comrades were off trying to embarrass NPO yet again. If this is *your* war at all, it is because you manage to utilize the war features of this game. Congrats on getting your piece little of history.

Perhaps you should actually do what you say and remove yourself from the gaming table if you are so blinded by your prejudices to recognise even a simple statement for what it is. I was simply expressing that we are as much a part of the coalition to take down NPO and it's goonies -- a fan club you've apparently joined to the general amusement of the community -- as any other alliance. Vox, FAN, and OcUK have just been fighting the good fight a bit longer and a bit differently.

Like when you came by the Rok IRC channel and queried me because you had managed to recruit away one of our members because you had promised him a Senate seat. Then you proceeded to attempt to black mail Rok to make sure we didn't attack him afterward. Showed your true colors that day.

You've got a lot of nerve condescending to anyone about blackmail, especially when you're mentioning Ragnarok in the same sentence. I'd advise you to purse your lips before I call Cindy Lou to do it for you.

Besides which, I've no idea what you're on about. I only ever queried you to ask for peace for OcUK.

Session Start: Wed Jan 21 21:02:35 2009

Session Ident: ChairmanHal[Rok]

01[21:03] <Doitzel> Hello my good buddy! Heh. Sorry to bother you on this but Starfox is MIA; what progress was made as far as Rok-OcUK peace possibilities?

[21:04] <ChairmanHal[Rok]> first....why do you even care?

01[21:06] <Doitzel> well because they are my allies

01[21:07] <Doitzel> and by that nature it puts us in conflict with Rok, indirectly, which is not something I like as Vox generally has no qualm with Rok

[21:07] <ChairmanHal[Rok]> can't say we're gunning for you either...or you'd already know it

01[21:09] <Doitzel> Would we? There's little anyone can do to us these days

01[21:09] <Doitzel> heh

[21:11] <ChairmanHal[Rok]> oh you guys do present a target now and again...but I see little point in going there

[21:11] <ChairmanHal[Rok]> OcUK is all of two members

01[21:12] <Doitzel> well, what do you want, a medal?

Session Close: Wed Jan 21 23:51:53 2009

Observe Big, Bad Doitzel's blackmailing skills!

No sir, long before your grandstanding, long before Electron Sponge became a "born again resistance fighter", there were people talking about this war. How it would be impossible until Polaris were subdued or at least willing to step aside. What it would take to actually pull off. The real heroes, if there are any, are people like Van Hoo III, who spent hour after hour of his time talking to people about this project and taking our hypothetical conversations over IRC and turning them into reality. People like Xiph and Big_Z of GOD, who picked up the pieces after Van Hoo departed the game briefly and carried on his work, expanding the list of alliances that were will to participate. The representatives from Fark, who sat quietly mostly--but when they talked, summed up in a few lines what some of us were taking line after line of text to say. Gen_Lee of Ragnarok who stepped up after I left Rok in disgust over internal matters and provided forceful leadership and lent his charisma to the project. The leadership of MHA, VE and Sparta, who could have quite easily have taken the easy road but instead opted for the difficult path that led to war--a war that was by no means guaranteed to end in victory and still may not.

Your arrogance is staggering. I suppose you think bombs can eliminate someone's ability to query and coordinate and talk? Give me a break. While you were all doing NPO's bidding destroying Polar I was convincing half the people you listed why NPO had to be taken down. Most didn't even know where to start. Like I've said so many times before, friendship is about more than treaties and it's not something that EZI can get rid of.

How've you treated your friends, Hal?

Actually it makes a lot of sense. A hell of a lot of sense. Do I agree with every line of it? No. But it deserves due consideration, not pompous dismissal.

Pompous dismissal? That's rich. It's like you're mocking yourself on purpose.

[Dochartaigh]

Maybe they will desire revenge, but I don't see how they will get it - I suppose time will tell. Either way, forcing NPO into harsh terms or to disband will not remove this desire - if it does indeed exist, and it will not prevent those people wanting to exert revenge from doing so. This can be evident with the present war, and the ex-League nations and communities fighting against NPO and allies.

I can almost guarantee that no matter what happens, NPO will want vengeance. They are quite patient and have shown an endurance in this matter equal to that of FAN's survival. There will be a desire and not just against Karma either. NPO is not a forgive and forget kind of alliance, they will indoctrinate their newcomers with their ideology better than most Communists could dream of. I fought with them, I was there for LUE, GATO, NAAC, Legion. I know what NPO is like. I know the depths to which they will travel to gain their vengeance.

Also, do you not think that taking Legion and making them sock-puppets of NPO is not the perfect vengeance? There are no ex-League alliances fighting on NPO's side. The only two that exist to my knowledge are GATO and LoSS. LoSS is on Karma's side. As for ex-League communities- MK, GR, and Int are the only ones that come to mind and both are also on Karma's side. Why, because they (well at least MK and GR) were hunted by NPO for a long time after they themselves had moved on.

[Starcraftmazter]

Also, do you not think that taking Legion and making them sock-puppets of NPO is not the perfect vengeance?

For what, being the ultimate paper tiger in GW3 and giving them a good laugh? Not worthy of vengeance in my opinion. But yes, I do get your point.

[Dochartaigh]

For what, being the ultimate paper tiger in GW3 and giving them a good laugh? Not worthy of vengeance in my opinion. But yes, I do get your point.

no GWIII was their vengeance for the Legion betrayal in GPW. NPO waited for a long time to exact vengeance. If you ask most Pacificans from the GPW-GWIII time, they will state that GWIII for them is the War of Retribution where they punished Legion for their betrayal in GPW.

[Deadshot]

In my case, Dark Fist declared war against NATO to honour our treaties. NATO declared war on INT to honour their treaties. Regardless of what happens in war, shall we be victorious, we shall give NATO white peace - no terms, no reps. This is a decision me and Daikos unanimously reached straight away after war was declared. It doesn't matter if they ZI all of us, if we will win, then they will get white peace. We both honoured our treaties, and I don't see how any of this is wrong in any way. I sincerely hope we will receive the same courtsey from NATO if they win the war. Knowing Anu, this is pretty likely. This should be the case for every alliance defending NPO - every single one of them should get white peace, with perhaps some conditions about removing nations from EZI/PZI if appropriate - that sort of thing.

Late to the party as usual but I agree with Anu here. Dark Fist has been a pleasure to fight against. You have nothing to be sorry for, and we are glad to be fighting an opponent such as yourself. And as far fetched as it may be, NATO terms would be white peace.

I will not sit here and boohoo about being rolled, etc. It's a game, and this is a fun part of it. I am just happy to be fighting such alliances as yourself, where trolling has been minimal and good nature ribbing is prevalent.

give em hell dark fist! er...wait...

o/SCM

edit: spelling for morons

Edited April 26, 2009 by Wentworth the Brave

[loannes]

*puts flag down at the top of the text mountain*

I managed to read through it, and first off...

You know you've overdosed on CN when...

Second of all, I have been meaning to write this for about 36 hours, but have been unable to due to organising my alliances' war efforts, etc. I have also skipped a night of sleeping, as well as not attend my uni for half the week, or worked on any assignments which are due by Sunday. Just to make a point how dedicated I am to this game, and how much fun I obtain from both the good and the bad. And no, I feel perfectly fine - this is by no means the first time I have gone without a night's worth of sleep. Also, delaying in writing this has given me the chance to put even more stuff in - excellent.

That can cause kidneyism, you know...

I noted multiple contradictions in there, but I read through instead of copy-pasting as I went, and since I REALLY don't want to read that again, I'll let it by.

[Sovyet Gelibolu]

Also, do you not think that taking Legion and making them sock-puppets of NPO is not the perfect vengeance? There are no ex-League alliances fighting on NPO's side. The only two that exist to my knowledge are GATO and LoSS. LoSS is on Karma's side. As for ex-League communities- MK, GR, and Int are the only ones that come to mind and both are also on Karma's side. Why, because they (well at least MK and GR) were hunted by NPO for a long time after they themselves had moved on.

For those who are interested, here are the former League alliances and their avatars today:

Global Alliance and Treaty Organization ==> Global Alliance and Treaty Organization

LUEnited Nations ==> Mushroom Kingdom

National Alliance for Arctic Countries ==> Greenland Republic

Coalition of Dark States ==> ?

International Communist Party ==> The International

League of Small Superpowers ==> League of Small Superpowers

Allied Coalition of International Defense ==> ?

Organization of Imperial Nations ==> Greenland Republic

Global Organization for Liberty and Defense ==> ?

[Bloody]

Oh dear... That was a mammoth of a read, mate! Good stuff though. I would recommend everyone at least skim it I don't regret reading the whole thing one bit. I too enjoy this game - something about the power really gets to my inner ego XD

I enjoy following this war and hearing (rather reading) everyone's opinions on it. Very noble ideas involved here.

[yinner]

some stuff to be proud of, but some stuff i think was a bit too harsh. Everyone acts to try to defend their interests, stuff their ears with confidence and at times flame others. its part of the overall experience of business in a hard world

[Qaianna]

I'm going to hope you've been humbled, and will let your actions after the war dictate my opinion of you.

One could read this as trying to start anew, slate wiped clean (granted, with spilled pixels). Think it'll happen on both sides? I keep hearing about grudges, again on both sides..especially if somehow the 'Hegemony' wins.

[martinius the great]

This isn't SCM's rant thread. These words are our words. The whole alliance of Dark Fist believes in these words as a code. You must treat your enemies as you are, not as they are. Yes, they might be !@#holes, and I have hated them for most of the time I've played CN; But they're !@#holes for their actions; For crushing alliances onto the ground and forcing them to disband. If you force them to disband as well, I will tell you sir, that you are NO BETTER than Electron Sponge (with what he did to \m/).

Also, listen Vox, you are no better than NPO. I hate you guys, as you're just as dishonourable as the other side.

[foxodi]

This isn't SCM's rant thread. These words are our words. The whole alliance of Dark Fist believes in these words as a code...

Being respectful to enemies = check

Other things in this rant = disagree

[martinius the great]

I hereby kick foxodi from DF. May SCM have mercy upon your soul, for I shall have none

[KinKiac]

Wow, that was long, but a good read nonetheless. However, as you predicted, I do disagree with some of it. First, the hegemony is not over. Far, far from it. The NPO still has over 900 members. There is only one alliance that comes close to that. IRON, their allies.

How long do you think Karma will stand together?

I personally dont think this coalition will last much longer than the end of this war. And, if NPO and IRON retain much of thier members, although their NS has dropped considerably, how long will it take them to rebuild?

How long did it take NpO to rebuild?

These guys are going to be majorly pissed at the end of this and if you think they will not rebuild and come gunning for anyone that opposed them here you are sorely mistaken IMO. As long as they still have the numbers, as long as they still have allies and as long as they still have a will to play this game they will come back. They will destroy some of us.

You say that NPO should not get harsh terms but I disagree with this as well. IMO the only way to bring the change promised by Karma, the only way to see to it that the Hegemony, or whatever you want to call them, does not come back, stomp us all and force us to disband, have a viceroy, etc etc.... is to hurt them bad enough that they cant. Do you really think they dont have the desire?

Im not saying I think they should be forced to disband, they deserve to play like anyone else, but force Gov to step down.... there's an idea. Force them to pay high reps, another good one. Force them to have no more than 20% soldier, destroy all military wonders and improvements? Sounds good to me. Force them to move color spheres? Ooooh, that would really piss em off, and be quite humorous. Again, i think that is fair game.

See, the thing is that none of these things compares to what they have done in the past, the the real reasons for this warand for the forming of Karma. To try and give me the line that by doing these things we will have become what we despise is total BS IMO, and I think you are not giving NPO enough credit. To truely become what the NPO is and has been, would mean well over 2 years of oppression, shakey CB's, keeping them under our bootheel, possibly with a viceroy, or forcing them and many other to disband, not to mention all the good things they have done(yes there are some good things). It would take a very very long time to become what the NPO is and has been.

To think that in one war, one set of harsh terms, one month or six of paying reps even compares to what the NPO has accomplished in its long and very successful career is being extremely full of yourself. It would take Karma years to accomplish what the NPO and pals have done. By giving NPO harsh terms, we are not preventing them from playing the game, however, we may be preventing them from enjoying the game, at least the way they like to enjoy it. They've been enjoying the game quite a bit for over 2 years, by seeing to it that others dont(maybe not on purpose but by default), by doing things that many of us dislike.

When all is said and done should they still have a right to enjoy the game doing what they always have to enjoy the game?

Yeah sure.

But should we give them the ability to enjoy the game in this way?

Well, I think the answer to that is obvious for anyone who dislikes the way the NPO has handled themselves over the last 2 years, and that answer is no.

My reasoning for this is the same reasoning the NPO used for keeping other alliances down, because they are just gonna come back and do the same. Does this mean I am no better than them, I think not. I have done nothing even remotely close to the things that they have. Does this mean I lack honor? Not IMHO. It just means I am not lacking in the desire for true change and for things to not return to the way they have always been.

Some might say that by giving NPO and co harsh terms we are sowing the seeds for revenge and not really changing anything, and I will agree, we may be doing just that. But I fear the retribution will only come much sooner if we dont see to it that they are not capable of getting revenge any time soon. But I believe this can be done without perpetual war, and without forcing them to disband or infringing upon their sovereignty. I do not believe this will come through leniency.