A Missive from Karma

[Branimir]

Who actually is in this so called karma?

Seriously I do not know the line up I believe it was never made public (OOC: RL keeping me busy, missing on this all fun, if it was declared somewhere already, link me). All what was ever said was just some PR yadda yadda stuff to claim moral high ground, but never actually who is in this so called karma.

[Leigon]

Actually i have no clue. Not sure if the Karma gov guys know it themselves. But somehow we're in it too. I guess everyone fighting NPO gets to call themselves Karma or somesuch.

[Tulafaras]

for the sake of negotiations karma were the alliances linked to OV due to defensive treaties. So their entering this war really shouldn't come as a large surprise should it?

[WarriorConcept]

Who actually is in this so called karma?

Seriously I do not know the line up I believe it was never made public (OOC: RL keeping me busy, missing on this all fun, if it was declared somewhere already, link me). All what was ever said was just some PR yadda yadda stuff to claim moral high ground, but never actually who is in this so called karma.

To be fair, you guys gave them all the moral high ground they needed.

[ROMMELHSQ]

What? I think you misread something really.

What was negociated was a surrender with according peace terms - i personally think if there's anything wrong with this it's that it was done too soon.

[22:00] <Moo-cows> so are we under protection during that time?

[22:00] <@Archon> Yes

[22:00] <Moo-cows> by whom?

[22:00] <Mary_the_Fantabulous> by whom, exactly?

[22:00] <@Archon> Ordo Verde.

[22:00] <@Archon> During this time, the NPO will be under the protection of Ordo Verde. To assist in this matter, all nations currently in peace mode will remain in peace mode for the duration of the terms.

English isn't my first language, so if you care to explain what the bolded part means to me I'd appreciate it.

[Detlev]

Ahahahahaahahahaah!!

With every post you guys prove how full of !@#$ you all are.

This is funny. Keep it coming.

Oh god your tears are delicious. Keep it up.

NPO deserves worse than what it could possibly have coming.

The sticking point in the surrender terms was admitting that the CB against Ordo Verde was "trumped up."

NPO has rammed bulls#*! terms down the throats of countless alliances; they should be happy to accept this one little thing, but their pride gets in the way.

Carry on. I only wish that we could hear more squealing by NPO and her parasites.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Detlev

[Lord Emares]

I honestly don't see how them asking for clarification of particular terms is stalling. From the reading of those logs they were asking for two things before they agreed to everything:

1. How much would they need to pay, ballpark figure I imagine would do.

2. How would violaters of the terms be dealt with?

From the logs posted by Moo-Cows:

02[22:06] * Moo-cows (nobody@coldfront-27CC9A8F.dsl.static.sonic.net) Quit (Client exited )

[22:06] <@Roquentin|Umbrella> these negotiations seem more and more like a stalling technique than anything else.

[22:06] <@Archon> Bakunin

[22:06] <@Archon> Accept or reject.

15[22:06] <Bakunin> The soldier terms needs to have a bit of breathing room, don't you think?

15[22:06] <Bakunin> 30% at least

[22:06] <@Archon> You disagreed with FAN.

15[22:06] <Bakunin> Many in this room made the same argument

[22:06] <@Archon> I apologize for the haste, Bakunin

[22:07] <@Archon> However, it has been made clear

[22:07] <@Archon> That we are running short on time.

[22:07] <@Archon> So either accept the term

[22:07] <Cortath> Are we dedicated to your destruction as FAN is to ours? These arguments have been hashed over and over again in the CN OWF. Is that what this channel is for?

[22:07] <@Archon> or reject it.

[22:07] <Cortath> Moo-Cows has timed out. Permit him to rejoin.

15[22:07] <Bakunin> What are we running up against, if I may ask?

15[22:07] <Bakunin> Update is still a ways off if you mean that.

[22:07] <@Roquentin|Umbrella> Our constituency is growing tired.

[22:07] <@Archon> You are negotiating in poor faith

[22:07] <@Archon> Given your actions outside of this channel.

[22:07] <@Archon> If you do not accept or reject within the next minute

[22:07] <@Archon> It will be seen as stalling

[22:08] <@Archon> ANd I will be forced to end these negotiations.

[22:08] <Cortath> *You* are negotiating in poor faith. There is no "time limit" here.

[22:08] <Cortath> The terms were until 10 PM CN time. We are two hours away. We have quite a bit of time.

[22:08] <@Archon> Cortath - Your lack of cooperation are noted.

06[22:08] * Cortath chuckles.

[22:08] <Zhadum> We are stalling when you refuse to even permit our leader to be present?

[22:08] <@Archon> Bakunin was empowered to speak on his behalf.

[22:08] <@Archon> Thank you.

[22:08] <Zhadum> When Moo was offline, he no longer is

[22:09] <@Roquentin|Umbrella> That was agreed to before we began.

03[22:09] * Moo-cows (nobody@coldfront-27CC9A8F.dsl.static.sonic.net) has joined #peacetalks

03[22:09] * Archon sets mode: +o Moo-cows

[22:09] <@Archon> Accept or reject.

15[22:09] <Bakunin> We wish to know how violations of the terms will be addressed prior to continuing.

06[22:09] * @Archon sighs

[22:09] <@Archon> The time has elapsed.

[22:09] <@Archon> I apologize for the time limit

[22:09] <@Moo-cows> wow

[22:09] <@Moo-cows> even we were never that harsh

15[22:10] <Bakunin> Given the apparent likelihood that at least one of our nations will probably have more than 20% soliders at some point

[22:10] <@Moo-cows> and we did compromise

[22:10] <@Moo-cows> a lot in our terms

[22:10] <@Archon> I am no more happy than you about this

[22:10] <@Archon> However, your flight into peace mode has been noted.

[22:10] <@Moo-cows> oh wwell, so much for a kindler gentler CN

[22:10] <@Archon> You are negotiating in poor faith.

[22:10] <@Archon> I thank you for your time.

[22:10] <@Moo-cows> who w ent into peace mode?

[22:10] <@Moo-cows> other than who was already there?

[22:10] <@Archon> However, I must officially declare these talks to be at an end.

[22:10] <@Roquentin|Umbrella> Yeah, I'm afraid we're done here.

[22:10] <Zhadum> Yes, we are the ones imposing one minute time limits when your leaders are out of the room

[22:10] <@Archon> You know how to reach me

[22:10] <@Moo-cows> well, guess it wouldn't have mattered that we accepted the term

I've bolded what happened from when Moo pinged out to when he came back online and the delay between when he was invited back into the channel.

22:06 Moo-Cows pings out

22:07 Cortath asks if he could be invited back into the channel since he is back online

22:07 (just shy of 22:08 by the looks of the logs) KARMA issues a time limit on acceptance of one minute

22:08 Cotath points out that KARMA originally said terms were available until 10PM CN time (just shy of 2 hours away by his reckoning)

22:08 Archon "Your lack of cooperation are noted" for pointing this out

22:08 Zhadum points out that Moo is nolonger offline (and by Cortath's statement has not been since before the extra time limit was imposed) and thus Bankuin is no longer empowered to speak in Moo-Cows place

22:09 Moo-Cows is invited into the channel and immediately asked to accept or reject without knowing what had transpired while he was gone

22:09 Almost immediately after Archon announces that the time limit has elapsed and negotiations are closed

22:10 KARMA notes Pacificas "flight into peace mode" despite Moo-Cows asking shortly after who went into peace mode (Showing that he did not issue any order to hit peace mode).

I'm sorry but that section of the logs is a disgrace. Issuing a time limit when the leader of the disadvantaged alliance side is online but cannot reenter the room and then declaring the time limit over shortly after? Hell issuing an additional time limit at all when the negotiations were opened with a 10PM CN-time deadline for accepatance of terms.

Onto the actual terms themselves. Most of them are pretty fair except

[21:58] <@Archon> In recognition of the tensions caused by the NPO's rash declaration of war, and to ensure peace is maintained, the NPO will hereby decomission their soldiers down to 20% per nation. They will furthermore decommission all CMs, Tanks, Navy, and Aircraft. They must maintain this state for a period of 60 days.

combined with

[22:00] <Moo-cows> so are we under protection during that time?

[22:00] <@Archon> Yes

[22:00] <Moo-cows> by whom?

[22:00] <Mary_the_Fantabulous> by whom, exactly?

[22:00] <@Archon> Ordo Verde.

[22:00] <@Archon> During this time, the NPO will be under the protection of Ordo Verde. To assist in this matter, all nations currently in peace mode will remain in peace mode for the duration of the terms.

Is an utter disgrace. I've been observing the NPO AA in game for a number of days now, as of 11PM GMT yesterday NPO had roughly 12% of their alliance in Peace Mode, all of whom are of the size to be bank nations (I class any nation above 4k infra as capable of being a bank nation). So in effect you are saying that their entire bank (or the majority of it at least) must remain in peace mode for the next 60 days, not only harming their ability to rebuild but also harming the income of their banks quite severely (after day 6 income in peace mode is halved and lose a significant amount of happiness up until the 15th day). That means on top of paying the reps, which KARMA refused even to give a ballpark figure of, 1/9th of the NPO would lose a significant portion of their income during that time.

If we say that each bank earns 6mill per day in income pre peace mode, with a population of 55k, a SM, a SSS, no events (positive or negative), no income from resources and an environment of 1+GRL (with GRL not changing from its present day status). Before you say anything yes I am vastly underestimating the average income of all of the nations in peace mode. Each nation under those conditions will lose to the tune of 164 million over the 60 day period. Thats a minimum of 18 BILLION in lost income for the NPO. Yes you read that right 18 BILLION. Now take into account that i'm underestimating the average income of those nations in peace mode by a significant portion and its more like 40-50 BILLION in lost income just from that term alone.

Add this to the loss in Tech from Tech deals:

[21:41] <@Tygaland> The NPO will pay reparations to Ordo Verde at a rate of 300% the damages dealt. This includes econmic damage dealt as a result of being in peace mode. To ensure that these reparations are paid promptly, the NPO will suspend all tech deals for the duration of these terms.

So thats 60 days without tech deals. The NPO has 374 nations capable of tech dealing (under 2k infra for this assumption). Lets assume that half of those are actively tech dealing with members of their own alliance. So thats 187 people in the NPO who would ordinarily be selling tech. Now if we assume a standard $3 mill for 100 tech deal, and we say each of those nations only has 4 aid slots in use/reserved for tech dealing. So we have 748 slots every 10 days, 250 of which will be used to pay for the tech leaving 498 dedicated to shipping bundles of 50 tech, which is 24900 tech every 10 days. That means for the 60 day duration they will lose out on 149400 tech.

So far that means the total loss to the NPO before reps just due to these terms alone is in the region of 40 BILLION and 140000 tech. This completely flies in the face of Delta's statement

[21:50] <@Delta1212[RIA]> It'll be less than 82k tech

Everyone in KARMA should be ashamed of themselves. You started this war claiming the moral high ground, saying that you are better than the NPO, both in how you conduct yourselves and the terms you give. Just from that chat log you have shown you are not. There are many in that chat whom I have grown to respect during my time in CN, you just lost my respect (with one or two exceptions).

EDIT: In addition to all of those saying no peace for a month. You disgust me. You claim the moral high ground and then turn around and do exactly as those who you deride and ridicule. Again you had earned my respect from your conduct on the forums, you have it no more.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Lord Emares

[lebubu]

02[22:06] * Moo-cows (nobody@coldfront-27CC9A8F.dsl.static.sonic.net) Quit (Client exited )

This is not a ping timeout. /random fyi

[Lord Emares]

02[22:06] * Moo-cows (nobody@coldfront-27CC9A8F.dsl.static.sonic.net) Quit (Client exited )

This is not a ping timeout. /random fyi

No but it could very easily be someone whose browser won't connect to any websites thinking their internet has gone down again and closed their windows so that they can try redialing/reconnecting again. It could also be mIRC freezing and having to be shut down via the task manager. Both have happened to me in the past and both are entirely possible.

Either way the point stands.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Lord Emares

[Leigon]

long post

First of all, Delta was speaking about Reparations not financial losses the NPO might have to endure due to their nations in peacemode.

And while I'm very sorry for them for losing a bit of money they maybe should've thought about that before starting a war.

The time limit is another thing, but when you see an enemy fleeing into peace mode time gets scarce. And while Moo might have acted surprised his alliance went into peace mode I doubt there would've been such a rush to peacemode if it wasn't ordered by Moo or other high gov members.

[BraveNewWorld]

Reading these peace talks was disappointing, I saw little but the same patronizing tactics used for so long. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss? Come on Karma, show us the change everyone has been calling for.

[Porkers.]

Is an utter disgrace.

Everyone in KARMA should be ashamed of themselves. You started this war claiming the moral high ground, saying that you are better than the NPO, both in how you conduct yourselves and the terms you give. Just from that chat log you have shown you are not. There are many in that chat whom I have grown to respect during my time in CN, you just lost my respect (with one or two exceptions).

EDIT: In addition to all of those saying no peace for a month. You disgust me. You claim the moral high ground and then turn around and do exactly as those who you deride and ridicule. Again you had earned my respect from your conduct on the forums, you have it no more.

What happened to GPA? What happened to GATO? What happened to FAN? IAA? What were the reps for MK last year? The list goes on. Once upon a time, one Umbrae Noctem came to me, and threatened me with the destruction of my alliance if I failed to have $1 paid in reps to NPO. For a nation that I personally fought against, who at the end of a war demanded reps from us, and a member jokingly sent him $1. He was flying the AA of FAN before the aid, but not throughout the war or before it, he was a random rogue then. That's the destruction of an, at the time 100+ member alliance, for the sake of $1.

That and Moo had KasMage Eternally ZIed for saying: "Emperor Moo is a joke of a leader"

I guess there's a lot of people on the Karma side, who have a similar story like that in their closet.

I'm guessing there's a reason for the name Karma, or did you miss the sigs, or does the meaning of it escape you?

"What goes around, comes around"

[Tygaland]

I'm sorry but that section of the logs is a disgrace. Issuing a time limit when the leader of the disadvantaged alliance side is online but cannot reenter the room and then declaring the time limit over shortly after? Hell issuing an additional time limit at all when the negotiations were opened with a 10PM CN-time deadline for accepatance of terms.

Just to clarify this point:

[21:01] <Moo-cows> I have connectivity issues as well

[21:01] <@Archon> I was going to ask.

[21:01] <Moo-cows> in that event Bakunin is charged to speak on my behalf

[21:01] <@Archon> Thank you.

[21:01] <@Archon> That is greatly appreciated.

From the same logs Moo posted in his thread. The Karma delegation was of the opinion this was the case when Moo disconnected from IRC for whatever reason. So, his absence should have caused no delay at all as Bakunin was present and able to speak on his Emperor's behalf.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Tygaland

[Ragashingo]

Just to clarify this point:

From the same logs Moo posted in his thread. The Karma delegation was of the opinion this was the case when Moo disconnected from IRC for whatever reason. So, his absence should have caused no delay at all as Bakunin was present and able to speak on his Emperor's behalf.

How come you always make excellent points?

[Lord Emares]

First of all, Delta was speaking about Reparations not financial losses the NPO might have to endure due to their nations in peacemode.

And while I'm very sorry for them for losing a bit of money they maybe should've thought about that before starting a war.

The time limit is another thing, but when you see an enemy fleeing into peace mode time gets scarce. And while Moo might have acted surprised his alliance went into peace mode I doubt there would've been such a rush to peacemode if it wasn't ordered by Moo or other high gov members.

When you force people in peace mode to stay in peace mode they are part of the reps, whether or not you call them reps they are reps. You are forcing an alliance to pay an amount of money for being in war. This is the very definition of reparations.

The 12% of the alliance who were in peace mode were already there before those talks start. I mentioned I was monitoring the NPO AA for a number of days didn't I? Next time get your facts straight.

What happened to GPA? What happened to GATO? What happened to FAN? IAA? What were the reps for MK last year? The list goes on. Once upon a time, one Umbrae Noctem came to me, and threatened me with the destruction of my alliance if I failed to have $1 paid in reps to NPO. For a nation that I personally fought against, who at the end of a war demanded reps from us, and a member jokingly sent him $1. He was flying the AA of FAN before the aid, but not throughout the war or before it, he was a random rogue then. That's the destruction of an, at the time 100+ member alliance, for the sake of $1.

That and Moo had KasMage Eternally ZIed for saying: "Emperor Moo is a joke of a leader"

I guess there's a lot of people on the Karma side, who have a similar story like that in their closet.

I'm guessing there's a reason for the name Karma, or did you miss the sigs, or does the meaning of it escape you?

"What goes around, comes around"

So cause the side you are fighting against did it in the past that means you aren't being hypocritical when you don't practice what you preach? KARMA has said, in this very missive:

We will not impose draconian terms, but we will not tolerate such underhanded tactics being employed against us.

I'm sorry but forcing an alliance to lose somewhere in the region of 40 Bill and 140k tech is draconian by my standards. Whether or not the NPO has done terrible things in the past. That does not give you the right to do terrible things to them while at the same time saying you are not doing those terrible things. Get off your high horse and stop being a hypocryte.

Just to clarify this point:

From the same logs Moo posted in his thread. The Karma delegation was of the opinion this was the case when Moo disconnected from IRC for whatever reason. So, his absence should have caused no delay at all as Bakunin was present and able to speak on his Emperor's behalf.

Why yes he did say that. But he had connectivity issues and then was back online very shortly after. During the time he was offline the quote was relevant, but the moment he came back online it is no longer as Moo is now fully contactable. The fact that it took a full two minutes after he came back online to invite him into the chat, during which time the time limit was imposed.

If you hadn't interpreted it to mean that when it was said you should have asked for clarification of exactly what it meant. You guys were the ones dictating the terms therefore the onus is on you to ensure that there are no communication issues/misunderstanding during the laying out of said terms.

[Branimir]

Reading these peace talks was disappointing, I saw little but the same patronizing tactics used for so long. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss? Come on Karma, show us the change everyone has been calling for.

Do not be naive. Seriously now, the world at large is what it is you really need to figure that out by now.

Anyway, I do say kudos to this mystic so called karma block at cornering NPO. Indeed it took a lot of time for somebody to accomplish this feat so congratulations. Do not worry, I will not turn into a bitter child spewing nonsense and name calling at you as I for so long needed to put up with such infantile characters.

My Pacifican banner shall fly high all the time.

[WarriorConcept]

So in effect you are saying that their entire bank (or the majority of it at least) must remain in peace mode for the next 60 days, not only harming their ability to rebuild but also harming the income of their banks quite severely (after day 6 income in peace mode is halved and lose a significant amount of happiness up until the 15th day). That means on top of paying the reps, which KARMA refused even to give a ballpark figure of, 1/9th of the NPO would lose a significant portion of their income during that time.

Rebuild what? Up until that point NPO had only been on the offensive against about 30 nations. I'd say that money lose over the 60 days and reps would probably be a lot cheaper than 2-3 fulls days of war right now.

Perhaps you also need to re-read what karma means, and maybe check out their history of surrender terms when looking at some of the ones presented such as 20% soldiers.

[Lord Emares]

Rebuild what? Up until that point NPO had only been on the offensive against about 30 nations. I'd say that money lose over the 60 days and reps would probably be a lot cheaper than 2-3 fulls days of war right now.

Maybe maybe not. Regardless some of their nations would still ahve needed some rebuilding aid, and now many moreso. It also prevents them from growing as an alliance due to the fact that their alliances primary method of funding growth programs is mandated to stay in peace mode.

Perhaps you also need to re-read what karma means, and maybe check out their history of surrender terms when looking at some of the ones presented such as 20% soldiers.

Never said anything about what they have done in the past. I am talking about the hypocrisy presented in this topic. Saying "We will not impose draconian terms" and then going right ahead and imposing draconian terms is hypocrisy no matter how you pad it up. You seem to need to reread what Karma has issued in its official missives and what it practices behind closed doors.

This topic is not about whether or not the NPO has committed great wrongs in the past, it is about those who are claiming the moral high ground are really entitled to claim the moral high ground, considering the amount of hypocrisy that is present between those logs and this missive.

[Electron Sponge]

Reading these peace talks was disappointing, I saw little but the same patronizing tactics used for so long. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss? Come on Karma, show us the change everyone has been calling for.

BraveNewWorld, I respect your position here but I must point out that Karma has not actually said that they are the harbingers of a change like what we in Vox Populi have been calling for. They are Karma Incarnate. That means that they are going to be dealing with NPO the way NPO has dealt with others. I don't necessarily support this myself but I think it's important that people realize that Karma isn't here to make the flowers grow. I believe some folks are confusing Vox Populi's activism with Karma's pragmatic realpolitik. Karma's defeat of the hegemonic powers will go a long way toward Vox Populi's goals being achieved so I am not going to come out awfully critical of their methods. It's messy work and I personally don't have the taste for where this is headed, but it will get the rest of us to where we need to be.

[BraveNewWorld]

BraveNewWorld, I respect your position here but I must point out that Karma has not actually said that they are the harbingers of a change like what we in Vox Populi have been calling for. They are Karma Incarnate. That means that they are going to be dealing with NPO the way NPO has dealt with others. I don't necessarily support this myself but I think it's important that people realize that Karma isn't here to make the flowers grow. I believe some folks are confusing Vox Populi's activism with Karma's pragmatic realpolitik. Karma's defeat of the hegemonic powers will go a long way toward Vox Populi's goals being achieved so I am not going to come out awfully critical of their methods. It's messy work and I personally don't have the taste for where this is headed, but it will get the rest of us to where we need to be.

Good point Sponge. I think that we are going to learn a lot about the character of the alliances fighting (or not fighting, as the case may be for many ) this time around.

[Lord Emares]

BraveNewWorld, I respect your position here but I must point out that Karma has not actually said that they are the harbingers of a change like what we in Vox Populi have been calling for.

That would seem to be exactly what they are claiming to be:

We will not sink into a smear war with them. Their sins are long, and they are known to us all. We will fight this war with no joy, and we will fight it with honor and dignity. We will not impose draconian terms, but we will not tolerate such underhanded tactics being employed against us. Our haste was unbecoming, and it was shameful, but our hand was forced. I hope that the population of Planet Bob will understand this, and forgive us our malfeasance.

That and the downright lies in the OP:

Once they did, it was clear the NPO woould not be able to accept anything due to their own pride

From those logs it looks like they were willing to accept quite a bit actually.

They are Karma Incarnate. That means that they are going to be dealing with NPO the way NPO has dealt with others. I don't necessarily support this myself but I think it's important that people realize that Karma isn't here to make the flowers grow. I believe some folks are confusing Vox Populi's activism with Karma's pragmatic realpolitik. Karma's defeat of the hegemonic powers will go a long way toward Vox Populi's goals being achieved so I am not going to come out awfully critical of their methods. It's messy work and I personally don't have the taste for where this is headed, but it will get the rest of us to where we need to be.

IF they had come out and said "We will treat the NPO as they have treated others" then yes I can accept your point. Since they did not and they specifically said they would not be imposing draconian terms then I cannot accept your point. By their actions they are as bad as those they are replacing.

Has any alliance in history ever forced another to endure a loss of over 40 bill and 140k tech as stipulation of peace terms?

[Proxian Empire]

Good point Sponge. I think that we are going to learn a lot about the character of the alliances fighting (or not fighting, as the case may be for many ) this time around.

In some cases a lot of these alliances aren't too much better than NPO and the Coward Coalition. This is unfortunate, but ultimately I would like to think that most of us consider 'Karma' to be the lesser evil to a great extent. I would like to imagine a world where there is no further hegemony, and instead alliances can just exist to grow independently without fear of an aggressive hyperpower to destroy them.

[Wargarden]

By their actions they are as bad as those they are replacing.

No one is replacing anyone. That's kind of the thing. Everyone is so used to the paradigm of having a unilateral power you can't imagine a multi-polar world. Well, you're gonna get one pretty soon.

I for one look forward to Bob full of anarchy and treaty web simplification. New overlords will arise in time as nature abhors a vaccum. But until then, its blissful chaos.

[Darvel]

Ahahahahaahahahaah!!

With every post you guys prove how full of !@#$ you all are.

This is funny. Keep it coming.

Once again you have cornered them with your merciless logic.

[RandomInterrupt]

Surrender talks already? Far too soon. Make them sweat it out as they have always done to others. Averaging their war lengths including FAN I'd say the war should last roughly 6 months or so. Probably more really.