On the Nature of Absolute Morality

[Vhalen]

I do not call you weak for holding certain beliefs, I call you tyrannical for wanting to force them into all others at the point of a sword.

Pot, kettle. Kettle, pot. Although Vlad likes to force others at the point of both a pen AND a sword.

I disagree that our actions have been in any way imperialistic.

Oh, no, it's not imperialistic to build an empire. *rolls eyes*

Actually, I might agree to some extent, on this one. It is directly opposing the imperialistic objective to make so many people dislike you so much that this sort of thing happens. You're right. The empire was a fluke. You were really self-destructive! Maybe someone can get you a therapist.

Edit: (OOC) Frankly, I'm not paying all that much attention to things this time around, so don't expect much in the way of back-and-forth from me. I know it's disappointing, but I just have other things I'd rather be sinking the time into right now, than reading and rereading this sort of thing.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Vhalen

[TheChieph]

The Metaphysics of Morality by Immanual Kant

Check it out a few of you would like it if you havnt already read it.

also you should not waste your thought on the "morality" of actions in a game... But if you are going to anyways I guess I will join in the fun. First off their is an absolute morality that can obviously never be achieved because humans are imperfect but to best strive for this we must give people (or nations) what they are due. This mean not encroaching on another nations natural rights if they do not break any sort of social contract to deserve this encroachment. whenever they can and choose to form what is or is not the final substantial determination of justice, they will all find that growth, prosperity and happieness are key to supporting morality. Through existentialism and the study of human effects we can see that no man or nation through any possible choice can effectively create absolute morality so does it exist. When compaired to communism the final thought are the same. They all end up in the toilet bowl. When the growth that is not the end continues to help each other we will all find out that this plays a large part in the final judgement. When studying furthe into deontology and how this can relate to each nations life we will all know that it can be know as just and equal to show what you can activly do to help each other. So all in all the only way is through absolute equality and even then it fails to jump the bar that is needed to achieve total justice. Because any said nation is evil we all know they are also good proving the contradiction in trying to apply real life philosophy to a simple game, it will fail every time.

Edited April 23, 2009 by TheChieph

[flak attack]

All I see is one really, really long "NO U"

[Unko Kalaikz]

This is one of my favorite essays by far. Very libertarian outlook which is refreshing.

[zigbigadorlou]

The Metaphysics of Morality by Immanual Kant

Check it out a few of you would like it if you haven't already read it.

also you should not waste your thought on the "morality" of actions in a game...

A little wordy, but still win. Missing a lot of necessary ideas though.

But infinitely inapplicable to this setting.

This waste of time is totally worth it.

[mpol777]

Does this mean we're going to get the real FAN back, rather than the crying moralising [sic] FAN that took over and convinced all these fine folk around us that they were doing it all for the Moral Outrage?

I believe you may have misconstrued my own sense of self with morality in my statements in the past. I had a moral compass once, but it just kept spinning in circles (counter-clockwise by the way) so I just hucked it in the creek. Even without one I've never been lost, because wherever I am, I'm someplace. In the same vein, I somehow tend to come off as a very venomous person at times. So while I may have seemed angry or "outraged" in reality I'm always giggling to myself. I find the world vastly amusing.

It isn't just you. Moral and immoral folks have a hard time deciphering amoral individuals. Luckily however, the reverse is not true. One that believes in morality, whether they adhere to it or not, uses that morality as a gauge when interpreting the world around them and they tend to lump everything into either a moral or immoral category. It simply does not compute that there are individuals that have no sense of that and thus those individuals are all over the map and lack categorization. Whereas an amoral individual can recognize all three groups because there is no need to put things into neat little piles and the basis of judgment comes from their own unique set of rules.

Where will FAN be in the future? I can't say, but wherever we are, there we are. That's enough for me.

[Chief Savage Man]

Are you setting the stage for your future work "Why the NPO won the Karma War: A Study of Moralistic Despotism and Manipulatorating"?

[Detlev]

How ironic that the chief propagandist for NPO would accuse anyone else of "imperialism" and "tyranny."

Did you forget already, Vladimir, of your alliance's attack on OV for absolutely nothing?

Or perhaps your attack on GPA for absolutely nothing?

Or NPO's attacks on a dozen other alliances for absolutely nothing?

I'm not saying that your "arguments" about Karma being imperialistic or whatever are invalid; I'm just saying that you have no business making them.

Edited April 27, 2009 by Detlev

[Lycurgus Rex]

Umbrae Noctem:"We are losing"

Moo:"what ?"

Umbrae Noctem:"Our members cant hold on much longer, GGA along with all the other meatshields have collapsed, all of Bob is going to see how much of a hype our military reputation really is, its all over...."

Moo:"Never, we can still win this, send vladimir out, he can post some philosophy stuff which doesnt make any sense to even me"

Umbrae Noctem: "words cannot save us now..."

Yup Vladimir, your Francoism only brings meaning to these who care. All of us heathens couldnt care less actually. Your walls of text will crumble just as easy as the members of Pacfica have. Words cant save you...

[Athenius]

Ahhhhhh. Finally I reach the guy that people accuse me of taking after!

Well all good my friend! Look forward to working with you!

Have a wonderful day.

If you like to see some of the work, you can go here: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?a...blogid=201&

[Athenius]

Yup Vladimir, your Francoism only brings meaning to these who care. All of us heathens couldnt care less actually. Your walls of text will crumble just as easy as the members of Pacfica have. Words cant save you...

Come to me, I will give you understanding. I will crush you with word and sword, along with the rest of Lady Pacifica!

[Max Rockatansky]

Is that why NPO wasted so much money on your nation to take out lil' old me when they could've sent that aid to someone bigger? Have fun with your practice. All you've done is put yourself on our radar.

[Taishaku]

@Vladimir

Makes me glad my National Religion is Christianity. Then I don't worry about having to extricate myself from a cesspool of ambivalent and ephemeral moral subjectivity.

[Lycurgus Rex]

Come to me, I will give you understanding. I will crush you with word and sword, along with the rest of Lady Pacifica!

, Kids these days. For three years NPO has tried that..., look what it has brought you. Face facts, your time is over. With all this talk of trying to restore former NPO greatness, you are starting to sound very like like legion members

[Taishaku]

"QUOTE (Athenius @ Apr 27 2009, 04:20 PM) *

Come to me, I will give you understanding. I will crush you with word and sword, along with the rest of Lady Pacifica!"

, Kids these days. For three years NPO has tried that..., look what it has brought you. Face facts, your time is over. With all this talk of trying to restore former NPO greatness, you are starting to sound very like like legion members

I think you mean something else. Athenia is talking about NPO. Unless you're saying NPO has been trying to "crush" NPO for the last three years...

[Griff]

I think you mean something else. Athenia is talking about NPO. Unless you're saying NPO has been trying to "crush" NPO for the last three years...

It's a conspiracy...

[Lycurgus Rex]

I think you mean something else. Athenia is talking about NPO. Unless you're saying NPO has been trying to "crush" NPO for the last three years...

No, he quoted me, I responded to him. He is evidently going to teach me some wisdom

[Cybren]

Speaking of Francoism, in what way is the crurent NPO not the height of Useritism?

[Taishaku]

@Lycurgus Rex

OH. Athenia wants to crush you AND Pacifica, who ALSO wants to crush you.

Honestly, the war map is confusing enough. Can we just have the Karma folks killing the Hegemony folks they already declared on and vice versa for now?

Edited April 27, 2009 by Taishaku

[Lycurgus Rex]

Speaking of Francoism, in what way is the crurent NPO not the height of Useritism?

Does it really matter?

[Cybren]

Does it really matter?

No, but does this entire discussion?

[Lycurgus Rex]

No, but does this entire discussion?

No, it doesnt either, its the last gasps of a dying power.

[heggo]

Come to me, I will give you understanding. I will crush you with word and sword, along with the rest of Lady Pacifica!

Seems like you're hocking something a lil' more potent than just "understanding" there.

Edited April 27, 2009 by heggo

[Max Rockatansky]

Oh, let him be guys. He got massive amouts of aid after I attacked him now he thinks he's all tough. Joke's on him though. The punchline will come soon enough.

[Vladimir]

Nature in fact DOES promote a morality. In your OP, you discuss of the two sides: the Imperialists and the Moralists, NPO vs. Vox. You fail to remember the third school of thought, that founded by myself and the members of NSO. Because of nature, we all have a defined purpose and ethic: to propagate entertainment. As such, by not fulfilling such is the inherent Absolute Morality.

I do recognize, of course, the type of "morality" that you speak of. This, however, is merely a means to an end: an added form of structure to make roleplay etc. more interesting. Of this, there is certainly NO inherent morality. In fact, coming to an agreement on it would be IMMORAL.

The OP asserts that moralists are imperialists. And I think you vastly underestimate the power of the language of morality to control people by dismissing it as you do.

As far as the 'entertainment' goes; again it is (perhaps unfortunately) not universal and therefore cannot be seen as absolute. However, even beyond that, what does the claim of 'entertainment' actually mean? You will no doubt say that everyone pursues it in their own way, and as such it means nothing at all. All you have done is draw a big circle round the entire world, define everything that could ever potentially happen within it as 'entertainment', and then left it at that. It's effectively just renaming the world; hardly a useful concept.

See morality is based on emotion. Emotion is the enemy of logic. Without logic, we cannot question that which is truly illogical and blatantly unnecessary.

While this is generally the case, and is definitely the case for those who this work is addressed to, it is not something inherent to morality.

You can have, as Pacifica does, a morality based on materialism and logic. It makes the language of morality somewhat obsolete, certainly, but it can be couched in those terms nonetheless.

The rest of your post represents a great misunderstanding of the Order and history, but I don't want to get dragged off-topic by that, so I'll leave it there.

I believe you may have misconstrued my own sense of self with morality in my statements in the past.

[...]

I wasn't discussing you, I was discussing FAN. For the past year your alliance has spent every waking moment moaning about how unfair life is, and how the Order acted immorally, appealing to the pity of those around them. My point was that it is humorous to see, as soon as the slim possibility of getting out from war arises, you immediately begin to revert back to your old amoral selves, where things are right because FAN said so. Not what the moralists expected I dare say -- nostalgia claims yet another victim.

Reminds me of the post in the NSO (pre-great war) declaration thread, where a young nation exclaimed horror at the idea that Ivan Moldavi had just revealed himself to be "a dictator" rather than the fluffy rainbow-coloured white knight that modern anti-NPO propaganda had led him to believe.

I'm not saying that your "arguments" about Karma being imperialistic or whatever are invalid; I'm just saying that you have no business making them.

Whether or not someone is allowed to speak truth depends on your flawed opinion of their history? You would do better to concentrate on what is said, rather than your emotional reaction to who said it.

Makes me glad my National Religion is Christianity. Then I don't worry about having to extricate myself from a cesspool of ambivalent and ephemeral moral subjectivity.

I'm afraid the logic still applies to you, regardless of the justification you use for your position.

Speaking of Francoism, in what way is the crurent NPO not the height of Useritism?

I'm not sure that we were speaking of Francoism, but very well. As I have gone over time and time and time and time again, there are no userites here, nor are there feederites. Why? Because there are no user or feeder regions. Without these material conditions the classes cannot exist, and without these classes any talk of 'useritism' is asinine. Of course, it also betrays your ignorance of what userite consciousness was, but that's irrelevant for the reason noted.

Perhaps this is better explained by an extract of another of my as yet unpublished works, Class In Context:

Today there are no feeder regions and thus no feederites; no user regions and thus no userites. Indeed, there is no conflict along these lines, and thus no classes at all. One might try (as many past epigones have) to ascribe certain attributes from those classes to individuals or collectives today, but without the material basis for them they are less than meaningless.

Can one describe freedom, sovereignty and anti-imperialism today as the class-analysis Francoists used to? Those Francoists were for self-determination against userite exploitation, but in all circumstances for interregional solidarity with other feederites and feeder regions. Which of these positions do you adopt, or do you try to adopt both and arbitrarily pin them on different groups? For them freedom was class rule, but where will you find this class today? No matter what option you choose or how you dress it up you are handicapping yourself. Just as you cannot take the gravitational force of the moon and apply it to calculations on Planet Bob, nor can you take class analysis and apply it.

But again, it's hardly a discussion for this thread.