The Mendacity of Populism

[Bob Janova]

Actually I believe Swampy never wore any GPA AA.

But yeah, there's a lot of argument going on in this thread which all sounds great but doesn't have any relation to the actual facts.

[Byron Orpheus]

Actually I believe Swampy never wore any GPA AA.

But yeah, there's a lot of argument going on in this thread which all sounds great but doesn't have any relation to the actual facts.

Yes, when will the anti-Pacificans deal with facts and reason?

[bahman]

I fear that logic cannot penetrate a mind that is so set in its ways.

As I believe you said, these posts are mainly to sway the middle ground. The people that already actively go against the NPO are idealistic radicals, and cannot be changed through argument.

[bkphysics]

I fear that logic cannot penetrate a mind that is so set in its ways.

As I believe you said, these posts are mainly to sway the middle ground. The people that already actively go against the NPO are idealistic radicals, and cannot be changed through argument.

Actively go against the NPO? Yeah, I am at war with them right now ... err hmm nope not fighting the NPO. That's weird. Maybe I just don't blindly accept the ideology that is being espoused by certain parties, not limited to just the NPO.

As well, you may be posting to sway a middle ground, I myself post simply to speak my mind and let people such as you know that other voices exist around here. I wouldn't even begin to pretend that anything I say would have any bearing on the decision someone else should make for themselves. As well, simple logic is what makes it possible for myself and many others to take the tired tripe being espoused as 'fact' and make a intelligent decision about what is really going on.

[bahman]

make a intelligent decision about what is really going on.

That is an decision you have made is an opinion formed after learning facts. I myself have formed an opinion from facts as well, and therefore am as set in my ways as you.

Actively go against the NPO?

By this I simply meant that certain parties do go to war with them, while others simply state their minds, and in doing so insult the NPO or others in certain ways.

[Byron Orpheus]

Actively go against the NPO? Yeah, I am at war with them right now ... err hmm nope not fighting the NPO. That's weird. Maybe I just don't blindly accept the ideology that is being espoused by certain parties, not limited to just the NPO.

As well, you may be posting to sway a middle ground, I myself post simply to speak my mind and let people such as you know that other voices exist around here. I wouldn't even begin to pretend that anything I say would have any bearing on the decision someone else should make for themselves. As well, simple logic is what makes it possible for myself and many others to take the tired tripe being espoused as 'fact' and make a intelligent decision about what is really going on.

We are well aware that other voices exist, as most of those voices have a habit of being rather vocal. The issue lies not in a dissenting viewpoint but in the reasons for that dissent, which I believe to be lacking a factual (or logical) basis.

[Orkules]

I fear that logic cannot penetrate a mind that is so set in its ways.

As I believe you said, these posts are mainly to sway the middle ground. The people that already actively go against the NPO are idealistic radicals, and cannot be changed through argument.

And you my friends are radicals of a different color. So which of us is better?

Honestly, we're both a bunch of radicals clinging to the dream of our ideal world. As Janova said, we kind of ignore a lot of facts here. I'll personally believe I ignore less just like you will of yourselves. But at the same time, not everyone who doesn't like you are radicals. Don't be fool enough to believe that or you'll be woefully surprised.

Edited April 18, 2009 by Orkules

[Bob Janova]

Yes, when will the anti-Pacificans deal with facts and reason?

Haha, a good joke :lol: well played.

I notice you didn't respond to the fact I put in the post you quoted, though. GPA did not 'harbour' Swampy, he applied to them and the application was rejected as soon as someone saw it and checked out the ZI list status. That was a pretext and I believe it has even been admitted to be such since.

Also, why is it 'anti-Pacifica' or 'NPO' that is being discussed in this thread? The NPO aren't even posting here. Believe it or not some people have opinions which are neither slavishly following the NPO not slavishly opposing it.

[Byron Orpheus]

Haha, a good joke :lol: well played.

I notice you didn't respond to the fact I put in the post you quoted, though. GPA did not 'harbour' Swampy, he applied to them and the application was rejected as soon as someone saw it and checked out the ZI list status. That was a pretext and I believe it has even been admitted to be such since.

Also, why is it 'anti-Pacifica' or 'NPO' that is being discussed in this thread? The NPO aren't even posting here. Believe it or not some people have opinions which are neither slavishly following the NPO not slavishly opposing it.

It is always slavery when the allies of NPO are supportive but somehow not slavery when other alliances support their allies.

[bahman]

I don't support the NPO in all its endeavors, but I don't like how some people seem to be against it just because they are powerful.

[bkphysics]

I don't support the NPO in all its endeavors, but I don't like how some people seem to be against it just because they are powerful.

Why would you assume they would be against it because of power?

The power of any alliance, even the mighty NPO, only lasts as long as their friends will it. If they were an isolated alliance, they would not have a fraction of the success as they do now. Maybe try and understand that more than likely, the same things you are not supportive of are the same pieces of interest that many are outspoken about?

[bkphysics]

We are well aware that other voices exist, as most of those voices have a habit of being rather vocal. The issue lies not in a dissenting viewpoint but in the reasons for that dissent, which I believe to be lacking a factual (or logical) basis.

Yep, you're right, my understanding of the whole GPA affair was completely wrong. Swampy never did fly the GPA AA at any point. Damn that Bob Janova for pointing out the tremendous flaw in my logic!

Seriously, I focus on the GPA incident as it is the most obvious example of the facts going against your initial logic.

[Commisar Gaunt]

Your pseudo-intellectual babel about the "peace being broken" can't really make up for the many times that same peace was broken by your alliance and company for less than legit reasons. Pax Pacifica is a lie--there is no peace under Pacifica's thumb as we've seen before, as Pacifica always finds some reason or another to isolate and then obliterate its competition. A Pacifica which uses its every mean to bring utter destruction to those who don't walk in their path. A Pacifica who is responsible for keeping whole alliances in ZI on the grounds that they're eternal enemies of Pacifica. Did you honestly think that Pacifica never reasoned that keeping those loyal alliance members of those fallen alliances in a constant state of war wouldn't breed eternal contempt? Pax Pacifica has never been a valid way of life, ironically thanks to the very people who try to promote such an idea.

I'm sorry, but this thread is a masturbatory exercise in flighty words and pure spin on the past.

[Byron Orpheus]

Your pseudo-intellectual babel about the "peace being broken" can't really make up for the many times that same peace was broken by your alliance and company for less than legit reasons. Pax Pacifica is a lie--there is no peace under Pacifica's thumb as we've seen before, as Pacifica always finds some reason or another to isolate and then obliterate its competition. A Pacifica which uses its every mean to bring utter destruction to those who don't walk in their path. A Pacifica who is responsible for keeping whole alliances in ZI on the grounds that they're eternal enemies of Pacifica. Did you honestly think that Pacifica never reasoned that keeping those loyal alliance members of those fallen alliances in a constant state of war wouldn't breed eternal contempt? Pax Pacifica has never been a valid way of life, ironically thanks to the very people who try to promote such an idea.

I'm sorry, but this thread is a masturbatory exercise in flighty words and pure spin on the past.

Following that logic, I would expect to see (on the unlikely chance that Pacifica's reign was brought to an end) the most lenient terms. But we all know that this is a fantasy, since the extremist factions are populated by hypocritical hatemongers that long for Pacifica's destruction only so that they may bring their own dominance to the world.

[Vilien]

Following that logic, I would expect to see (on the unlikely chance that Pacifica's reign was brought to an end) the most lenient terms. But we all know that this is a fantasy, since the extremist factions are populated by hypocritical hatemongers that long for Pacifica's destruction only so that they may bring their own dominance to the world.

Hypocrisy is an interesting concept to bring into this conversation. You see, for three years we've listened to Pacifica and her friends use the phrase "do something about it" on these forums. They've consistently asserted, time and time again, that they can do whatever they want, as long as we can't do anything to stop them. For the longest time we've been ruled by "might makes right." It's interesting to see how rapidly things have changed. Now that, for once, the sides are even, your side is feeling the squeeze. In an instant, you've turned from the hyper-confident masters of the universe into a group of put-upon scapegoats. Do you think that all of this anger has come from nowhere? Where did these "Pacifican hating" alliances pop up from? They're the remnants of alliances past, the ones that you've destroyed.

Maybe, for once, this isn't just one group trying to subjugate the other. Maybe we're all tired of that old mentality. Maybe that after three years of your rule, it's time for a change.

[Commisar Gaunt]

Following that logic, I would expect to see (on the unlikely chance that Pacifica's reign was brought to an end) the most lenient terms. But we all know that this is a fantasy, since the extremist factions are populated by hypocritical hatemongers that long for Pacifica's destruction only so that they may bring their own dominance to the world.

When you've shown no mercy for as long as Pacifica, expecting mercy at the end of times is an outrageous idea. Villifying those who want Pacifica dead is just spitting in the memory of Pacifica's rise to dominance. What else did Pacifica do but replace one supreme power with another? One less committed to riding the coattails of Pacifica might actually see the irony in what you've written, but I guess I shouldn't expect anything more from a blind rhetorician.

Edited April 18, 2009 by Commisar Gaunt

[Byron Orpheus]

When you've shown no mercy for as long as Pacifica, expecting mercy at the end of times is an outrageous idea. Villifying those who want Pacifica dead is just spitting in the memory of Pacifica's rise to dominance. What else did Pacifica do but replace one supreme power with another? One less committed to riding the coattails of Pacifica might actually see the irony in what you've written, but I guess I shouldn't expect anything more from a blind rhetorician.

Do not make the mistake of seeing this discourse as a cry for mercy from Pacifica and allies, for Pacifica requires no mercy. I was simply offering an open caution to those who might possibly become caught up in the extremist movement, so that they might avoid being duped by faux revolutionaries with ulterior motives.

[Rickyman1984]

Do not make the mistake of seeing this discourse as a cry for mercy from Pacifica and allies, for Pacifica requires no mercy. I was simply offering an open caution to those who might possibly become caught up in the extremist movement, so that they might avoid being duped by faux revolutionaries with ulterior motives.

And all the what, 50% or so of the CN population who dislike NPO, qualify as extremists? Not a slam on NPO but if you don't see the strength of their opposition, you aren't paying attention. You may dismiss them but I don't believe many in NPO are so cavalier.

Also, it's good to see that you have magical insight into what is going on in the "extremists" inner minds and how they'll conduct themselves should they get into power in the future. I tried to build a mind reading device but mine required too much electricity.

[Byron Orpheus]

And all the what, 50% or so of the CN population who dislike NPO, qualify as extremists? Not a slam on NPO but if you don't see the strength of their opposition, you aren't paying attention. You may dismiss them but I don't believe many in NPO are so cavalier.

Also, it's good to see that you have magical insight into what is going on in the "extremists" inner minds and how they'll conduct themselves should they get into power in the future. I tried to build a mind reading device but mine required too much electricity.

There is a difference between "dislike" and between actively attempting to usurp a beneficial regime. I am quite sure Pacifica does not expect uniform gratitude toward their existence, but I am equally as sure that NPO is not a mustache-twirling villain with no more motive than wanting to see your metaphorical best-girl splattered across the train tracks of our planet.

I possess no telepathic techniques that allow me to know the inner workings of the extremist mind; my conclusions are based on logic and deduced from the facts at hand, and they are certainly nothing that a person of average intelligence could not readily replicate.

[Orkules]

There is a difference between "dislike" and between actively attempting to usurp a beneficial regime. I am quite sure Pacifica does not expect uniform gratitude toward their existence, but I am equally as sure that NPO is not a mustache-twirling villain with no more motive than wanting to see your metaphorical best-girl splattered across the train tracks of our planet.

I possess no telepathic techniques that allow me to know the inner workings of the extremist mind; my conclusions are based on logic and deduced from the facts at hand, and they are certainly nothing that a person of average intelligence could not readily replicate.

Beneficial? How is NPO beneficial to me? They don't protect me. They never have. They have actively opposed almost every alliance I have been in, some of them simply because they once had friends who didn't like Pacifica.

Not to mention I don't wish a regime, or control. I just don't want somebody to dominate every aspect of how I play this game.

[Byron Orpheus]

Beneficial? How is NPO beneficial to me? They don't protect me. They never have. They have actively opposed almost every alliance I have been in, some of them simply because they once had friends who didn't like Pacifica.

Not to mention I don't wish a regime, or control. I just don't want somebody to dominate every aspect of how I play this game.

Dominate every aspect? Does NPO swoop down everytime you make a post such as this? Whenever you buy infrastructure does NPO swiftly remove it? Are you prevented from signing treaties with willing partners?

[Orkules]

They can make me think twice about who I treaty if it's somebody they don't like or somebody they think could somehow threaten me as I may fear that I could be caught up in their "crusade for justice" against them. Now personally I don't care, my nation has been wrecked a number of times and even wiped from the planet on one occassion before. Nothing new or frightening there, it can be rebuilt. Some though, won't ally with friends for fear that it will make NPO notice them and put them on their list as well. Or some such radical, crazy belief that is likely just as insane as your mindless devotion.

However, you are right. They don't screw with my infra purchases. I concede the point. Though they have destroyed my precious infras many times but that just made it cheaper and easy to buy so no worries.

[Byron Orpheus]

They can make me think twice about who I treaty if it's somebody they don't like or somebody they think could somehow threaten me as I may fear that I could be caught up in their "crusade for justice" against them. Now personally I don't care, my nation has been wrecked a number of times and even wiped from the planet on one occassion before. Nothing new or frightening there, it can be rebuilt. Some though, won't ally with friends for fear that it will make NPO notice them and put them on their list as well. Or some such radical, crazy belief that is likely just as insane as your mindless devotion.

However, you are right. They don't screw with my infra purchases. I concede the point. Though they have destroyed my precious infras many times but that just made it cheaper and easy to buy so no worries.

So the fault you find in Pacifica is that they exert political pressure the same as every other alliance on Bob? As far as destroying your infrastructure, I would guess that was a result of actual war against Pacifica and not random playground bullying.

[Orkules]

So the fault you find in Pacifica is that they exert political pressure the same as every other alliance on Bob? As far as destroying your infrastructure, I would guess that was a result of actual war against Pacifica and not random playground bullying.

I wasn't complaining about the infra loss. I lost them all in honest to god wars and fights. The only thing close to playground bullying might have been BAPS (can't remember what caused that, too long ago) or the Coalition War both simply because of how horribly uneven they were. But I always had fun. So no complaints.

When they tell you they'll personally see you isolated if you treaty an alliance, that's more than normal political pressure. Sorry for not clarifying exactly what I meant before.

[General Ozujsko]

The overthrow of an oppressive regime? Certainly, if there is an overlording tyrant in our midst, let us cast him out into the darkness and never speak of him again; but, my fellow Bobians, no such man exists—they man that they would indict as this mythical “tyrant”, the esteemed Emperor Revenge, is a fair and benevolent ruler (and as great a friend as many could ask for) who works closely with his allies to establish a peaceful, pleasant atmosphere for all to benefit from—a Pax Pacifica, used as a searing curse by those too blinded with misguided hate to embrace the prosperity freely handed to them, which has allowed so many nations and alliances to grow in relative safety from rogues, raiders, and the savage, tribal unaligned. Where is this tyrant of which they speak, then? They fault Emperor Revenge because he must keep order in a judicious manner, because he and his allies must reinforce the peace from which we have all reaped rewards, they call him a villain. If it is villainy to step in from time to time and, with the aid of likeminded friends, keep order and dignity within our world by targeting violent criminals and dangerous extremists, then count me as a villain as well, for I have no qualms with the swift treatment of those who would try to destroy the world that so many have labored to build...

More hypocritical psycho-babble from the Hegemony. You do realize that most players have more to fear from the warrantless and unjustified attacks of Ridalin-fueled despots and their army of disgruntled misanthropes than rogues, right?

This Pax Pacifica you speak of...is never peaceful and only pleasant to those on top. For any "threat" (unjustified or imaginary) to the status quo is met with a jackboot. So, please, save us the defense of what is nothing more than Stalinism while you and your allies are no better than Mátyás Rákosi.

Edited April 20, 2009 by General Ozujsko