Ready for the truth?

[Gabe Logan]

You want proof? I'll give it you.

Yes, I want proof. If your accusations are true, I'll be thoroughly pissed with hilltopper for lying to me and causing us to be attacked. He will also be banned from the alliance.

However, it won't change the fact that the NSO declared on us without any discussion with me, leader of the alliance you have attacked, as to your concerns or proof presented to me of your accusation.

You guys say the other things have nothing to do with it. We can agree to disagree. You are a dishonorable alliance who have taken advantage of your size advantage to exact an unwarranted revenge against a former member who disagreed with your methods.

You are Sith. Should anyone expect any different?

[Trout]

Let's see what TOOL does then..

[Lycurgus Rex]

If you know a member of my alliance is a spy and declared on us because of it, don't you think I would be an involved party? I have no idea what my members are doing, but I have been supplied no evidence of any wrongdoing by one of my members, how I can have an opportunity to handle it? You're going to have to do better than that. Oh yeah, you already have, we are all in anarchy and Im whining because you caught us spying, whoops, silly me.

I fixed it for you.

[Vulkan]

Unfortunately, "it's just one week" is not justification. It's bullying.

And the fact you didn't raise the issue with the leader of the alliance in question just makes you look even worse, reminds me of something the Imperial Green Village would do.

[Gabe Logan]

One other thing. It's always easy to pick on the little man. I wonder how your actions would be viewed if you attacked a large scale alliance without discussing your reasons with their leadership and giving them the opportunity to remove the member before launching a full scale alliance war, and then offering proof afterwards?

[franciscus]

Why should he be kicked if he's a spy? You're all in the alliance knowing that if one nation $%&@s it up everyone else has to pay the price.

Because two members, none of whom have any power in the alliance, got mad at you for an acronym you think that we wanted to roll your alliance? I can see your logic..

Yet again, why should you have to "deal" with the issue? You admitted yourself you invited him in, and then he followed you when you left. You dealt with it by giving him access to the boards in the first place. The alliance pays for the mistakes of its members.

Logic, oh why do you fail so miserably?!?

I seriously don't know how I'm supposed to take a screenshot of somebody taking a screenshot of our forums. Apparently, Ivan has proof and that's good enough for me. If you ask kindly, I'm sure you'll get it.

I'm not sure why it should be "you" taking a screenshot of someone taking a screenshot, although I don't see where it was asked for such a proof.

Only root admin can prove such thing, although not by a screenshot. Or not necessarily by a screenshot.

Yet, if such proof exists, maybe its time to bring it to light. Otherwise, it's just a BS CB, like many others that have existed in CN and that will exist from now on.

No double standards as far as BS CB's are concerned!

[Gabe Logan]

I fixed it for you.

Rex, I've already been in the NSO. I know the inner workings. I have no reason to spy and you make it sound as though I ordered him to do so. I'm still waiting on proof that he did at all, and if he did, it was without my knowledge and it wasn't for my alliance. I think everyone here knows that an alliance leader can't know every action of his membership. If someone is doing something they shouldn't and you know of it, you have a responsibility to bring it to my attention so I can deal with it. If I fail to do that, then you are justified to declare on my alliance. Anything else is bs.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

One other thing. It's always easy to pick on the little man. I wonder how your actions would be viewed if you attacked a large scale alliance without discussing your reasons with their leadership and giving them the opportunity to remove the member before launching a full scale alliance war, and then offering proof afterwards?

That's an excellent point you make there.

[TheStig]

That's an excellent point you make there.

If this was.. let's say TOOL doing the spying or whatever else they did, the whole situation would probably by overlooked. But remember kids, this is CyberNations; a double standards game.

[Corinan]

Nevermind, Ivan covered it.

Edited April 11, 2009 by Corinan

[Orkules]

Of course there are double standards. If a big guy picks on you...well you're screwed. There's nothing you can do about it. You grin and bear it and hope that people get pissed and tell em to stop. Now if somebody smaller tries the same !@#$...well then you $%&@ them up because in this case you have the power. That really isn't a double standard, it's just using common sense (though technically yes a double standard).

[Ivan Moldavi]

A few quick points because I can't really be bothered and I don't have a lot of time on here before heading into work.

First, this isn't because of your exit from NSO. It sure as Hell isn't because you disagreed with me. Since you do bring it up however I will clarify that your disagreement was handled in a very unprofessional manner from someone that was selected to be in "leadership" within the alliance. You decided to go on your own little !@#$%*fest, much like you have here, instead of taking your concerns through appropriate channels.

People in the NSO disagree with me and my policy regularly. I am not the most agreeable person in the Cyberverse. But most do it with at least as much cordiality as I provide them and most don't do it by making baseless claims of favoritism, which is highly inaccurate, and just self boasting egotism, which I am far from having the market cornered on.

Second, you may be the "founder" of CDC but Hilltopper was your first member, joining up immediately. He was selected as part of your initial government. He is, as you say here, your "friend". You invited him into NSO knowing his past. Did you share that past with any of the NSO leadership during your time there or did you keep it to yourself? Oh wait, I know the answer.

You also admit to having knowledge of this situation fully at least 48 hours ago, if not 72, via confirmation from TOOL. Did you not think it might be wise to consider that your "friend", whom you knew about and kept his involvement in previous spying a secret, might be involved? Odd.

So between the time that you were informed by TOOL of this issue and the declaration Hilltopper accessed the NSO forum at least twice. We already had evidence that he was posting screenshots of our forum on the Blackstone site. You were aware that it was a concern to us. He is a member of your government and indeed the first member of your alliance and your "friend".

What more really needs to be said on that subject?

As far as TOOL is concerned, we verified with their government prior to declaring last night that the Protectorate did not reach completion. Even if it did we have what has constituted a valid casus belli for the entire history of the Cyberverse so I doubt any protectorate situation would grant you free reign to break the typical conventions of warfare.

Now, I have other things to attend to. You can post whatever you wish, it will not change the situation. We have declared a limited war in order to facilitate punishment for a wrong against us by your government and "friend". Unless you seek escalation it will end in white peace at the conclusion of the current wars.

[Mongrel]

As much as I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, you're really not providing a whole lot of evidence here.

You have a post of provisional protection from 3 days ago, as some of your logs show TOOL became aware that there was suspicion that your alliance may have had a spy. The problem is we have no idea if the suspicion was raised after the April 8th post. I can only assume that since TOOL has raised no public objection in the NSO declaration, you may well not be providing us with all the facts.

The remaining conversation took place in pms between graham and I, and is copied and pasted below to read easier, but I can provide screenshots if needed:

^ The problem here, is that I don't see any conversation, all I see is your personal monologue. In order to have a conversation it would help if graham had actually spoken.

Finally as for your discontent with NSO, did you read the charter or even think about what you were signing up for when you joined in the first place?

[potato]

Is this thread about ES yet?

[youwish959]

Not anymore. The accusation of hilltopper spying is ridiculous. I was in the NSO and so was he. If we were spying for someone else, wouldn't we have just stayed there? If hilltopper were Blackstone, wouldn't he hang out in a larger alliance rather than join a 5 man band? CAN PLANET BOB SEE HOW STUPID THIS IS?

The TRUTH is clear.

Why is it ridiculous? Your only defense is that you have known him in previous characters, and now his character. You admit his old character has spied. So why trust his new one? What makes you so sure he wouldn't do it again?

Blackstone collusion is an anonymous organization, that is not so anonymous. It does not matter what alliance he is in or what not. I'm quite sure the quicker minds of Planet Bob will realize that you have no actual defense, other than that you have known him for so long.

I'm not exactly sure why we would come to you, when we are about to declare on you. The fact of the matter is you are claiming that you know for a fact that hilltopper was not spying. Perhaps you should be ready to deal with those consequences, and be ready to defend what you believe to be oh so true?

Edited April 11, 2009 by youwish959

[Lycurgus Rex]

You are Sith. Should anyone expect any different?

Haha , I love it.

I've already been in the NSO. I know the inner workings

VS

Ivan prefers things being discussed in private (so he's not made a fool), but I had done that on a couple of other issues and since I was showing myself out the door, I posted my thoughts in my resignation thread. I didn't mind because it was done tastefully and because NSO claimed from the onset that they want to be different and encouraged us all to say what was on our minds, regardless of good or bad, etc. It was also done tastefully. However, I cited that I didn't agree with the alliance being governed by a crew of 9 with no actual workload and only authority while those who build the alliance aren't allowed into the top council.

I also stated that it bothered me that the Terra Cotta pact was planned and announced without anyone on the regular councils nor any general members knowing anything about it. Here we are slaving for the alliance and have no say, opinion, or even information regarding this pact and it's announced out of the blue.

Are you sure you know the inner workings ?, because im pretty sure you werent one of the "crew of nine" that you think is running the alliance, so how would you know anything ? The answer is you dont, everything you have said is merely an opinion you have because you werent chosen to a high level of leadership within the alliance.

Ivan has shown you mercy for your crimes. Do not forget that.

[hizzy]

And the fact you didn't raise the issue with the leader of the alliance in question just makes you look even worse, reminds me of something the Imperial Green Village would do.

What? why would I raise this issue with any of the leaders involved? My comment was addressed to youwish who's primary defense for his actions is "it's just 1 week". Well, 1 week or not, that's a retarded defense to use.

[Sargun II]

What? why would I raise this issue with any of the leaders involved? My comment was addressed to youwish who's primary defense for his actions is "it's just 1 week". Well, 1 week or not, that's a retarded defense to use.

That wasn't his primary defense.

[Lycurgus Rex]

oh well, the screenie has been posted on page 2

[hizzy]

edit: Just saw the screeny, so I'll give him that.

Edited April 11, 2009 by hizzy

[Corinan]

It's not? Hmm... let's re-read his post then....

Mind pointing out which of those statements is his defense? It's pretty much a lose-lose situation cause they all suck. The last sentence would be good if he actually did post somehting up, and if it wasn't preceded by the rest of it.

May wanna go back a page....

[Gabe Logan]

First, this isn't because of your exit from NSO. It sure as Hell isn't because you disagreed with me. Since you do bring it up however I will clarify that your disagreement was handled in a very unprofessional manner from someone that was selected to be in "leadership" within the alliance. You decided to go on your own little !@#$%*fest, much like you have here, instead of taking your concerns through appropriate channels.

Why don't you post my resignation thread and let the people decide for themselves? While you're at it, make sure you post where the NSO encourages it's members to speak openly and freely, whether it be in disagreement with one another or not. You wanted to be different, right?

People in the NSO disagree with me and my policy regularly. I am not the most agreeable person in the Cyberverse. But most do it with at least as much cordiality as I provide them and most don't do it by making baseless claims of favoritism, which is highly inaccurate, and just self boasting egotism, which I am far from having the market cornered on.

What cordiality did you provide? After I resigned, I was banned from your alliance...and for what, stating my concerns? You may not have personally banned me, but I believe you are responsible for your members actions, at least that's what you'll have me believe. And no, you don't have the market cornered, but I do recall your statement of "you mess with the bull, you get the horns" to the_great_one in the Terra Cotta pact thread...just one example of your self glorification when it was uncalled for.

Second, you may be the "founder" of CDC but Hilltopper was your first member, joining up immediately. He was selected as part of your initial government. He is, as you say here, your "friend". You invited him into NSO knowing his past. Did you share that past with any of the NSO leadership during your time there or did you keep it to yourself? Oh wait, I know the answer.

Hilltopper was the fourth member of my alliance, signing on after bomberboy and lunagron. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hilltopper is a re-roll nation who I asked to join an alliance which at the time openly stated that all were welcome, regardless of their past. I did discuss the NPO ZI against him, and granted, I have only his word that he wasn't guilty of the accusations, but in either case, according to your acceptance policy at the time, should it have mattered?

You also admit to having knowledge of this situation fully at least 48 hours ago, if not 72, via confirmation from TOOL. Did you not think it might be wise to consider that your "friend", whom you knew about and kept his involvement in previous spying a secret, might be involved? Odd.

I did, and I questioned him on it. He denied it and again, I ask...if he were a Blackstone spy who was sent to spy on NSO, why would he leave to join a tiny alliance not worth spying on? If you were suspicious of him doing anything wrong, he didn't appear to be aware of it and had no reason to run. Furthermore, he wouldn't have ran to a fledging alliance for protection.

So between the time that you were informed by TOOL of this issue and the declaration Hilltopper accessed the NSO forum at least twice. We already had evidence that he was posting screenshots of our forum on the Blackstone site. You were aware that it was a concern to us. He is a member of your government and indeed the first member of your alliance and your "friend".

sigh. not the first member. if you had evidence, why didn't you present it to me? why have you still not presented it to me? why was I not given the opportunity to ban him before you declared on all of us?

What more really needs to be said on that subject?

A hell of a lot more than you have.

As far as TOOL is concerned, we verified with their government prior to declaring last night that the Protectorate did not reach completion. Even if it did we have what has constituted a valid casus belli for the entire history of the Cyberverse so I doubt any protectorate situation would grant you free reign to break the typical conventions of warfare.

No you didn't. Conventional rules require proof of allegations and attempts to resolve matters with the leadership of the alliance before declaring on them. War should only take place when all other methods to resolve an issue have failed.

[hizzy]

May wanna go back a page....

lol I did I blame the people who post too much.

[Ivan Moldavi]

I actually just messaged youwish asking him to remove the evidence altogether. We have provided that and more to the relevant parties. The uninvolved deserve nothing.

Edited April 11, 2009 by Ivan Moldavi

[Chet Ubet]

Well it was a good run Gabe but with those screenshots you might as well put up with it and take it like a man