In the GATO

[Tom Litler]

it's our responsibilty as a community to stand up to such disgraceful things that in the real world would be frowned upon sincerely.

Then why is it that your backsides are always glued to the chair when you can actually prevent this "disgraceful things" for transpiring? Or do you need to allow them to happen first so that you can "frown upon" them? Is that it?

[TheStig]

Then why is it that your backsides are always glued to the chair when you can actually prevent this "disgraceful things" for transpiring? Or do you need to allow them to happen first so that you can "frown upon" them? Is that it?

I'm confused now, are you talking about in real life, or within the CyberVerse... both? neither?

[Orkules]

It would seem that their fate is no longer in NPOs hands, it's our responsibilty as a community to stand up to such disgraceful things that in the real world would be frowned upon sincerely.

Cause you know, the real world does a whole lot about all the genocides, military coups, ruling class massacres, repression, puppet governments, and mass corruption. Unless you mean literally frowning instead of actually doing anything at which point you have achieved a facial expression and nothing else, much like how little the real world actually does for said events above.

Not to say I don't agree that GATO shouldn't be free. Just that your statement didn't really say much.

[Tom Litler]

I'm confused now, are you talking about in real life, or within the CyberVerse... both? neither?

More in the game, I suppose. In real life, it's a whole different story.

People in real life hold off from stopping bad things from happening because they can be convenient or profitable. This game is too moralistic... or pretends to be; to be compared to RL.

Read my previous reply in this thread.

[TheStig]

Cause you know, the real world does a whole lot about all the genocides, military coups, ruling class massacres, repression, puppet governments, and mass corruption. Unless you mean literally frowning instead of actually doing anything at which point you have achieved a facial expression and nothing else, much like how little the real world actually does for said events above.

Not to say I don't agree that GATO shouldn't be free. Just that your statement didn't really say much.

Let's take the holocaust and Hitler's general regime as an example. Such an event occured, the human race learnt from it, oppressed an destroyed it, and nothing like it never occured again. With this scenario, NPO needs to understand they deserve to play freely, let them go, and in future be more reasonable with war terms of surrender, etc.

[Draztikus]

Crocodile tears shed for WAE? My word, this an amusing evening :lol:

WAE is dead, long live the WAE2.0

[Chimaera]

It's fairly obvious that the reason GATO is being held down is because they were a traditional enemy of NPO stretching back to the very first Great War. If this was an alliance GATO's size without GATO's history of being on the "other side", they would have been released from terms months ago.

[Denial]

I hate to be the "do something about it" guy but all you people crying injustice now stood right by and watched the New Pacific Order beat GATO several shades of blue. You had your chance you make a stand when there was a war to fight. Your "well intentioned" complaints about GATO right now are nothing but a self-righteous propaganda war mounted against the NPO. You didn't care about GATO when it was crushed repeatedly. In fact, I'm sure more than a few of you have partaken in defending at least one of these "ridiculous" casus belli. What has changed? Nothing. You still don't care about GATO; you care only about producing whatever PR "edge" you can get your hands on to defame your enemies and if attacking their "oppression" of an alliance that has for a while been universally loathed, not only within the NPO, is just that: your "edge".

I suppose I'm still more original. My argument isn't "do something about it" now because I am sure that if a global war breaks out, the GATO affair will be cited as at least one of the catalysts for the war by the "goodies" and one of the injustices they will hope to eliminate once the "baddies" have gone. What I am saying is that maybe if you cared that much, you would have done something about it then.

This is a ridiculous argument on many levels. Firstly, you are making sweeping and inaccuarate generalisations about a broad range of people. Not all of those who champion GATO's cause merely "stood right by" as the New Pacific Order went to war with a piss-poor justification. Those that were allied to GATO honoured their treaties and defended them, while many 'outsiders' who sympathised with GATO's plight displayed their opposition through different methods. The idea that those sympathisers, not obligated to defend GATO by treaty, should have stood side-by-side with the Brown Sphere alliance on the battlefield is nothing more than a romantic ideal. Not only would it have failed to accomplish anything for GATO, but it would have also ensured harsh surrender terms from a group that is known to take pleasure in destroying communities and oppressing others. No, the prudent move is to continue making use of diplomacy and public campaigns; they are much more likely to achieve the desired results than the aforementioned suicide mission.

As for your other accusations, no, I have not defended even one of these ridiculous excuses for war. Further, I do genuinely care about GATO, its community, and its members who have had their sovereignty infringed upon time and time again. You could say those members are free to leave GATO, but that would only allow the destruction of another community at the hands of Pacifica. If you believe I am alone there, and that GATO is actually "universally loathed", you need to take a closer look around this place. And so what if it is being utilised in a campaign against Pacifica's reputation and public image? It does not make the Pacifican methods of hegemonic maintenance any less deplorable.

I sure hope the next time you disagree with a certain policy, or attempt to criticise an alliance's actions, you display your opposition immediately through military means, ignoring all other methods. You better "do something about it" through the war system, because quite obviously nothing else works. You certainly wouldn't want to be a hypocrite, now would you?

Edited April 11, 2009 by Revanche

[King Xander the Only]

I'm confused now, are you talking about in real life, or within the CyberVerse... both? neither?

The likelihood of something that straightforward confusing you is slim to none (I hope). Stop dancing around the subject.

[TheStig]

People in real life hold off from stopping bad things from happening because they can be convenient or profitable. This game is too moralistic... or pretends to be; to be compared to RL.

Because this game isn't (well, shouldn't) be about profit or convenience, it is about trying to be the best nation ruler possible, and in many cases, run the best, most decent, and preferably most honourable alliance that you can. Those are aspects that have been forgotten throughout this game, but thankfully there are still the good few willing to stand up and make a difference.

[TheStig]

The likelihood of something that straightforward confusing you is slim to none (I hope). Stop dancing around the subject.

I was unsure if he meant in reality or within the game. And he answered my question. Thanks for interfering.

[Tom Litler]

Let's take the holocaust and Hitler's general regime as an example. Such an event occured, the human race learnt from it, oppressed an destroyed it, and nothing like it never occured again. With this scenario, NPO needs to understand they deserve to play freely, let them go, and in future be more reasonable with war terms of surrender, etc.

See: Reagan's support of contras in Nicaragua.

See: USA's support of Muslim extremists to fight the Soviets.

See: China's guaranteed veto of any resolution regarding Darfur in order to continue to supply those people with weapons.

See: NUMEROUS OTHER CASES. Seriously, the list goes on and on. They're countless.

No one learned anything from the Holocaust or World War 2. We just like to say that we did while we bomb innocent women and children in countries we can't find on the map.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

How constructive of you

BD

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot about the rule that says one can't express one's mirth over the proceedings here on Planet Bob. My most sincerest of apologies to you and anyone else I may have offended with my ill humour, good sir.

Regardless, they are an alliance with nations that have just as much a right to play properly as you, or I, or anyone else does.

A right to play properly? What's that then?

Edit:

WAE is dead, long live the WAE2.0

Bah, humbug.

Edited April 11, 2009 by Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz

[Cataduanes]

I have to admit Mr Litler and LJ make some good points, as a GATO-1V war vet i still remember all to clearly how GATO was derided and trolled time and time again by pretty much all and sundry during the 9 week GATO-1V war (even by members of my current alliance)...i must admit i feel almost bitter that suddenly GATO and its cause is now a 'cause célèbre' so long after the times when GATO really needed peoples help. Better late than never some have said but i cannot forget how many GATO members perished (In CN terms quit the game) because of global indifference to our plight back then and how all this concern for GATO is somehow too little, too late ..sigh but hell what do i know right? i am just an ODN member

EDIT: Revanche, you restore my faith in CN players time and time again

Edited April 11, 2009 by Cataduanes

[TheStig]

See: Reagan's support of contras in Nicaragua.

See: USA's support of Muslim extremists to fight the Soviets.

See: China's guaranteed veto of any resolution regarding Darfur in order to continue to supply those people with weapons.

See: NUMEROUS OTHER CASES. Seriously, the list goes on and on. They're countless.

No one learned anything from the Holocaust or World War 2. We just like to say that we did while we bomb innocent women and children in countries we can't find on the map.

See: NPO's oppression of FAN

See: NPO's oppression of GATO

See: GOONS

See: NUMEROUS OTHER CASES

The point is, in real-life we learn from such events, move on and nothing has occured again like in world war two on such a magnitude. And are YOU the one bombing innocent children? No. Do you agree with such things? I would say certainly not. So it is yours, mine, everyone's responsbility to try and do something about it. Are you? If not, then you musn't be that passionate about stopping it.

A right to play properly? What's that then?

Freedom from (EDIT: forced) peace mode, for a start.

Edited April 11, 2009 by TheStig

[LJ Scott]

You are suggesting that such actions within this game are fair? Let's say you created GATO and everything went great until you ended up at war with NPO and after all this time, you still hadn't been freed and couldn't play the game properly because of some "!@#$%s" who are using their power unfairly.

It would seem that their fate is no longer in NPOs hands, it's our responsibilty as a community to stand up to such disgraceful things that in the real world would be frowned upon sincerely. As Szyrgy so rightly put it, CN presents us the opportunity to exercise morals that in reality are so frequently forgotten due to our selfish human nature. We have a chance to do things different, do things right here and that is why this scenario alike many others throughout the history of this game should not be.

If I created GATO, I'd think it more than reasonable for NPO to attack me, and prevent me from playing this game "properly". Although the shame would be sufficient punishment imo.

No their fate is in the hands of NPO. If you want to change that, then put your nation where your mouth is and make it happen. I'm sure the "community" will rally behind you. Also if your going to stand up against "such disgraceful things" then you can't go around being subjective.

Finally, is it just me or is all this collective bawwwing coming from non-GATO members? Why is it the "community" are always the ones outraged and feel they have to "stick it to the man" by bawwwing on the OWF, when the "oppressed" alliance generally dig in and get on with it?

[In Spades]

It would seem that their fate is no longer in NPOs hands, it's our responsibilty as a community to stand up to such disgraceful things that in the real world would be frowned upon sincerely. As Szyrgy so rightly put it, CN presents us the opportunity to exercise morals that in reality are so frequently forgotten due to our selfish human nature. We have a chance to do things different, do things right here and that is why this scenario alike many others throughout the history of this game should not be.

Because it sure worked for FAN supporters . Don't get me wrong, I agree with your post, but I'd wager the NPO not caring what other people think before releasing terms over popular demand. It would be awesome if the world was ran idealistically, but realism always prevails in my mind.

[Denial]

If I created GATO, I'd think it more than reasonable for NPO to attack me, and prevent me from playing this game "properly". Although the shame would be sufficient punishment imo.

No their fate is in the hands of NPO. If you want to change that, then put your nation where your mouth is and make it happen. I'm sure the "community" will rally behind you. Also if your going to stand up against "such disgraceful things" then you can't go around being subjective.

See my response to Tom Litler.

Finally, is it just me or is all this collective bawwwing coming from non-GATO members? Why is it the "community" are always the ones outraged and feel they have to "stick it to the man" by bawwwing on the OWF, when the "oppressed" alliance generally dig in and get on with it?

Likely because the very nature of "oppression" means that they're not free to speak their minds, lest they be reprimanded?

[Tom Litler]

This is a ridiculous argument on many levels. Firstly, you are making sweeping and inaccuarate generalisations about a broad range of people. Not all of those who champion GATO's cause merely "stood right by" as the New Pacific Order went to war with a piss-poor justification. Those that were allied to GATO honoured their treaties and defended them, while many 'outsiders' who sympathised with GATO's plight displayed their opposition through different methods. The idea that those sympathisers, not obligated to defend GATO by treaty, should have stood side-by-side with the Brown Sphere alliance on the battlefield is nothing more than a romantic ideal. Not only would it have failed to accomplish anything for GATO, but it would have also ensured harsh surrender terms from a group that is known to take pleasure in destroying communities and oppressing others. No, the prudent move is to continue making use of diplomacy and public campaigns; they are much more likely to achieve the desired results than the aforementioned suicide mission.

As for your other accusations, no, I have not defended even one of these ridiculous excuses for war. Further, I do genuinely care about GATO, its community, and its members who have had their sovereignty infringed upon time and time again. You could say those members are free to leave GATO, but that would only allow the destruction of another community at the hands of Pacifica. If you believe I am alone there, and that GATO is actually "universally loathed", you need to take a closer look around this place. And so what if it is being utilised in a campaign against Pacifica's reputation and public image? It does not make the Pacifican methods of hegemonic maintenance any less deplorable.

I sure hope the next time you disagree with a certain policy, or attempt to criticise an alliance's actions, you display your opposition immediately through military means, ignoring all other methods. You better "do something about it" through the war system, because quite obviously nothing else works. You certainly wouldn't want to be a hypocrite, now would you?

Funny how the same people that argue that they didn't join a battle because they were not connected to either side by any treaties cancel those same "binding agreements" on a whim whenever it suits them. If people cared, they would have fought for GATO without a treaty which brings me to my point: you could have done something. You didn't. Instead you choose to "display your opposition through different methods" which seem to be limited in their difference to the type of methods that entail passive-aggressive verbal assaults on the enemy.

My idea isn't romantic. If more people had the resolve to fight for what they supposedly believe in, stars could be moved. What have we accomplished thinking like you; that it is pointless to fight because you might lose so you shouldn't even try? Look at Great War 1 in CN. It could have been just another curbstomp but smaller alliance rose up and defeated what was thought to be an invincible enemy.

[TheStig]

If I created GATO, I'd think it more than reasonable for NPO to attack me, and prevent me from playing this game "properly". Although the shame would be sufficient punishment imo.

No their fate is in the hands of NPO. If you want to change that, then put your nation where your mouth is and make it happen. I'm sure the "community" will rally behind you. Also if your going to stand up against "such disgraceful things" then you can't go around being subjective.

Finally, is it just me or is all this collective bawwwing coming from non-GATO members? Why is it the "community" are always the ones outraged and feel they have to "stick it to the man" by bawwwing on the OWF, when the "oppressed" alliance generally dig in and get on with it?

This is exactly what I'm trying to explain, a reluctance of a sufficient retaliation against these unjust actions that alliances such as NPO are doing to people like GATO. As for the "community" rallying behind me, there are hundreds, even thousands of decent people out there who would support my voice but are resilient to do so because supporters like yourself shroud their voice and prevent the unification of such righteous movements.

[Orkules]

Let's take the holocaust and Hitler's general regime as an example. Such an event occured, the human race learnt from it, oppressed an destroyed it, and nothing like it never occured again. With this scenario, NPO needs to understand they deserve to play freely, let them go, and in future be more reasonable with war terms of surrender, etc.

There are genocides going on now. We have learned nothing. Granted, none of them have the power or influence to achieve what Hitler did individually but god only knows how many genocides and civil wars that practically count as genocides we have going on everywhere. And you know what? The world does nothing. Occasionally we complain and ask politely to stop (brilliant plan that, works with all the warlords). But we do not stop them. Not to mention most of the world didn't fight Germany because of the Holocaust (not because it wasn't worth fighting them for, they just didn't realize what exactly was up). Not a particularly big point, but it does make this a bit different.

Again, GATO should be freed. The terms have gone long enough.

[LJ Scott]

Likely because the very nature of "oppression" means that they're not free to speak their minds, lest they be reprimanded?

I'm sure if they were so sick of being "oppressed" we'd surely have had GATO members speaking out via indirect methods.

[TheStig]

There are genocides going on now. We have learned nothing. Granted, none of them have the power or influence to achieve what Hitler did individually but god only knows how many genocides and civil wars that practically count as genocides we have going on everywhere. And you know what? The world does nothing. Occasionally we complain and ask politely to stop (brilliant plan that, works with all the warlords). But we do not stop them. Not to mention most of the world didn't fight Germany because of the Holocaust (not because it wasn't worth fighting them for, they just didn't realize what exactly was up). Not a particularly big point, but it does make this a bit different.

And again, this is the situation we have in CyberNations. But this game presents the opportunity to show our decent colours and act honourably and decently. Sadly, it would appear that even within a game, where almost every in-character action goes without serious consequence (my pixels... noes!) people still insist on behaving in a pitiful manner like in the real world, much like the examples you and others have given.

[Tom Litler]

Moreover, if they cared enough about the "oppression" they are subject to; they would leave.

[Orkules]

Again I don't support it. I have openly stated I don't support it. If I gain the power to make them change it (some crazy way) then I will change it.

I just have the strange need to refute what I feel are false claims about this real world.