Moo told me he's giving peace to FAN

[Mogar]

And what did GATO do to deserve months of a Viceroy? They put up little to no resistance. It does not matter what an alliance does, you will punish them all the same, based merely on past grudges.

GATO allowed a re roll of Chris Kaos into their alliance's government before knowing he was Chris Kaos, they're evil, evil I tell you, they deserve their viceroy, those scheming Spanish Cats.

[Sal Paradise]

GATO allowed a re roll of Chris Kaos into their alliance's government before knowing he was Chris Kaos, they're evil, evil I tell you, they deserve their viceroy, those scheming Spanish Cats.

That couldn't possibly be the reason for that war because the NPO doesn't chase people across rerolls.

[Mogar]

That couldn't possibly be the reason for that war because the NPO doesn't chase people across rerolls.

then maybe they just hate kittens .

[greatplacetolive]

The basic fact is that FAN did not abide by their treaty obligations.

What else is there to discuss?

I'm replying to this without reading what is between page 2 & page 4, so sorry if I'm repeating what someone else has said...

NPO has repeatedly held itself to the standard of "FAN violated the terms because we said so". No proof, and constant repeating of the same lie in spite of our evidence to the contrary.

NPO failed to abide by IT'S requirements of the treaty, namely acting as a protector of FAN while FAN was disarmed.

NPO failed to abide by the treaty terms of only attacking FAN nations which were in violation of the treaty.

I know, these arguments have all been done 1000 times. The point is, almost everyone has seen through it by now. Yes, you're larger, you can enforce your vision of the rules on the basis of strength. We will always have our nations, our forums full of gun porn, and our pride.

[Vilien]

How far is this bar going to move?

First it was fighting people across re-rolls.

Then it was lowered to fighting without offering them surrender.

Now it’s fighting them when they refuse to surrender.

Does real politic even matter anymore or has the hold damn thing gone OOC lovy dovy?

FAN has given us absolutely no IC reason to give them a white peace.

People are tired of your !@#$%^&* real-politik. Everything you've just named has been a progression towards a better world. Yes, it is unfortunate for those who would use such means to stifle opposition. But we will continue fighting until the Cyberverse is free; free from your tyranny, and free from any who would try to do the same.

[Paradigm]

People are tired of your !@#$%^&* real-politik. Everything you've just named has been a progression towards a better world. Yes, it is unfortunate for those who would use such means to stifle opposition. But we will continue fighting until the Cyberverse is free; free from your tyranny, and free from any who would try to do the same.

I like your voice

[Richard Rahl]

People are tired of your !@#$%^&* real-politik. Everything you've just named has been a progression towards a better world. Yes, it is unfortunate for those who would use such means to stifle opposition. But we will continue fighting until the Cyberverse is free; free from your tyranny, and free from any who would try to do the same.

I remember what FAN did before their downfall. It's funny how people forget those things. A better world? Hardly.

And your fight to make the Cyberverse free by definition, leads to a non-free Cyberverse. How? Because you are trying to force others to rule in the manner that you see fit. You think things should be one way, and that's your right. But when you start telling people your way is the only good way to rule, and then forcing them to rule that way, you are taking away their freedom.

Should FAN be free? Yes. Not because I think they are these great warrior saints that have never done wrong, like you are making them out to be. Because I want them out of peace mode so they can grow and I can fight them myself.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

I remember what FAN did before their downfall. It's funny how people forget those things. A better world? Hardly.

That war is over. We're discussing an end to the second VietFAN here .

And your fight to make the Cyberverse free by definition, leads to a non-free Cyberverse. How? Because you are trying to force others to rule in the manner that you see fit. You think things should be one way, and that's your right. But when you start telling people your way is the only good way to rule, and then forcing them to rule that way, you are taking away their freedom.

No, we are vocally encuraging alliances to take an ethical course of action. FAN's attackers, however, are telling FAN members that they do not have a right to exist in the game. You're right; FAN sympathizers have no regard for sovereignty

Should FAN be free? Yes. Not because I think they are these great warrior saints that have never done wrong, like you are making them out to be. Because I want them out of peace mode so they can grow and I can fight them myself.

You'd lose

[He Who Has No Name]

That's funny, Moo, the last time I talked to you, your answer was "die."

Did you lie then, too? Scratch that, I already know you did. I won't bother asking and giving you a chance to spin more Moocrap.

NPO demanding we come out of peace to "get peace" doesn't really remind me of a superpower trying to end a conflict that has been a massive (if un-admitted) strain on them.

It reminds me of a spoiled, petulant brat of a child stomping his feet and screaming at the top of his lungs because the other kids have refused to play with him anymore. He is DEMANDING that they play the way he wants to play.

In his mind, the fact that the "game" is "I Kick You In The Teeth Until I Feel Like Stopping" is irrelevant. The fact that the last time they played together, he swore the other kids would get a turn if they followed his rules, and then lied, changed the rules, and went back on his word, doesn't matter.

The only thing that matters to the brat of a bully is that somebody is not doing what he wants them to do.

He is willing to thrash, and transfer blame to others, and whine and moan and taunt and jeer until he gets what he wants. That's the only thing he understands and the only thing that he's interested in.

So until the brat either grows up or gets spanked, we'll do things the way WE feel like doing them. And if that just happens to be a massive pain in the rear end to the lying, backstabbing, narcissistic, sociopath who is busy throwing a tantrum...

...well, that's too bad. We're having enough fun this way that we don't feel like risking trust in a known liar and gambling another kick in the teeth. We've tasted enough of our own blood.

White peace or our victory. You have two options, Pacifica, because you have proven you cannot destroy us, your credibility is shot forever, and we are DONE "playing" your way.

Edited April 11, 2009 by He Who Has No Name

[Gruthenia]

I remember what FAN did before their downfall. It's funny how people forget those things. A better world? Hardly.

And your fight to make the Cyberverse free by definition, leads to a non-free Cyberverse. How? Because you are trying to force others to rule in the manner that you see fit. You think things should be one way, and that's your right. But when you start telling people your way is the only good way to rule, and then forcing them to rule that way, you are taking away their freedom.

Should FAN be free? Yes. Not because I think they are these great warrior saints that have never done wrong, like you are making them out to be. Because I want them out of peace mode so they can grow and I can fight them myself.

I'm sorry but a world where you're free to hound nations into total nonexistence isn't free and nobody's going to shed a tear when good warmongering alliances like Valhalla are oh so cruelly barred from starting wars for no particular reason or sentencing players to EZI in the horrible oppressive new world. I mean, if I can't enslave or murder people as I wish, am I really being oppressed? Your answer seems like it would be "yes" if you're going to get your panties in a bunch over people telling you you're no longer free to engage in repressive tactics as you wish.

[Paradigm]

^he who has no name - That should be the first post of a recruiting thread for FAN in the player created alliances forum.

Edited April 11, 2009 by Paradigm

[OmahaHusker]

Here's hoping FAN gets peace someday. Lord knows you deserve it.

[Matthew Conrad]

Statistical Detail?

They plain old didn't abide by them.

Were you around then? I'd rather trust the people who experienced both NPO-FAN wars themselves instead of looking at naturally biased source material. Whether the CB was just or not, I don't think you can use what basically amounts to a propaganda reel to make your point. Then again history is written by the victor, but that has yet to be decided.

Either way, I think NPO has made a martyr out of FAN. Your tired excuse of using them to "train" your lower nations no longer holds any weight since they have what, 3 nations in anarchy right now? Attacking ghosts provides a better military exercise than stubbornly trying to regain face by attacking an invisible enemy.

[He Who Has No Name]

Were you around then? I'd rather trust the people who experienced both NPO-FAN wars themselves instead of looking at naturally biased source material. Whether the CB was just or not, I don't think you can use what basically amounts to a propaganda reel to make your point. Then again history is written by the victor, but that has yet to be decided.

Either way, I think NPO has made a martyr out of FAN. Your tired excuse of using them to "train" your lower nations no longer holds any weight since they have what, 3 nations in anarchy right now? Attacking ghosts provides a better military exercise than stubbornly trying to regain face by attacking an invisible enemy.

What's even funnier is that most of the bottom-rank nations they're "training" are also FAN in disguise.

How do you think we siphon tech and cash out of them so well? Plus NPO battle guides and instruction, plus advance access to Unimatrix, plus NPO feeds us intel... Yet they keep trying. It nearly brings a tear to your eye to watch them keep at it, over and over and over again even when they get burned every time.

If Pacifica really had any brains, they would have closed their borders and their recruitment when they redeclared on us. The FAN members who have fought on for the last year-plus have been baptized by fire into a brotherhood that goes beyond just this world. Pacifica could have reaped the same benefits for their community I take that back. Knowing what we know now about how the NPO truly operates - as an infinitely corrupt and avaricious oligarchy - the culture and establishment in the NPO could never have risked allowing close ties between officers and the lower ranks. They require expendable "members".

Edited April 11, 2009 by He Who Has No Name

[Ogaden]

Were you around then? I'd rather trust the people who experienced both NPO-FAN wars themselves instead of looking at naturally biased source material. Whether the CB was just or not, I don't think you can use what basically amounts to a propaganda reel to make your point. Then again history is written by the victor, but that has yet to be decided.

Either way, I think NPO has made a martyr out of FAN. Your tired excuse of using them to "train" your lower nations no longer holds any weight since they have what, 3 nations in anarchy right now? Attacking ghosts provides a better military exercise than stubbornly trying to regain face by attacking an invisible enemy.

It was a joke, guys.

I mean the whole situation is absurd, it deserves mockery. FAN's haughty demands of NPO in their state of complete ruin, the Free FAN movement, even FAN itself have all become self-parodies. I think the problem is not that FAN is too different from us, but rather they're too similar and have the same problem with our pride.

[uaciaut]

I'm sorry but a world where you're free to hound nations into total nonexistence isn't free and nobody's going to shed a tear when good warmongering alliances like Valhalla are oh so cruelly barred from starting wars for no particular reason or sentencing players to EZI in the horrible oppressive new world. I mean, if I can't enslave or murder people as I wish, am I really being oppressed? Your answer seems like it would be "yes" if you're going to get your panties in a bunch over people telling you you're no longer free to engage in repressive tactics as you wish.

Oh you and your facts

[Beauty]

Its been WAAAAY too long for this war, And NPO is only losing respect for it. Basically your achieving nothing in the VietFAN 2 except you keep losing respect because your forcing 70+ players to just stay in a peace mode and take a beating if they get out, and to think FAN would have once went to 0 infra and back to defend you and you attack them for a few low leveled nations having more then 20% of soldiers? This is why Pacifica has the reputation it does today. This is also why their is a Vox Populi and a Blackstone. Even now you still have the chance to give them peace and gain respect from the CN community. I myself, would definatly respect you alot more for letting them have peace. Also if you gave them peace eventually they'd be your friends again sometime. I mean look at Mushroom Kingdom, You two went to Nuclear war and now youve signed a Peace, Intelligence, and Aid Treaty. It is time for FAN to be free, Because too many people have been forced to leave or go to peace mode and eventually die out because you want a new yellow puppet state.

[Electron Sponge]

Keep fighting the good fight FAN, we'll keep fighting too. Eventually this will end on our terms.

[Vladimir]

and to think FAN would have once went to 0 infra and back to defend you

Is that a joke? By their own admission they spent most of their history actively trying to undermine and destroy us, in order to usurp our position. So keen to go to 0 infrastructure and back for us they were that as early as the Third Great War they were making secret deals with our collective enemies to avoid attack and move the load onto us and others.

Edited April 11, 2009 by Vladimir

[atrophis]

Is that a joke? By their own admission they spent most of their history actively trying to undermine and destroy us, in order to usurp our position. So keen to go to 0 infrastructure and back for us they were that as early as the Third Great War 3 they were making secret deals with our collective enemies to avoid attack and move the load onto us and others.

I didn't know GWIII was early? I guess time flies when your having fun. Or, in our case, being forced into peace mode in a two year war. Please stop trying to muddy the facts. We were one of your meat shields like everyone else at one time, we just wised up at a point.

[Electron Sponge]

Is that a joke? By their own admission they spent most of their history actively trying to undermine and destroy us, in order to usurp our position. So keen to go to 0 infrastructure and back for us they were that as early as the Third Great War 3 they were making secret deals with our collective enemies to avoid attack and move the load onto us and others.

Of course it's not a joke, and if you had been paying attention to actual events back then instead of writing stupid essays no one cared to read perhaps you'd know that. For quite some time FAN were very keen to defend NPO and the Initiative. They saw the handwriting on the wall during GWIII and tried to make it a little more interesting. That ended up not being such a great idea.

Actually that deal in "the Third Great War 3" (what?) had nothing to do with NPO, so I don't know why you're even complaining about it other than having a dearth of actual complaints regarding FAN as it pertains to this sort of thing.

[Vladimir]

The Third Great War is early because it marked the victory of The Initiative, and as such demonstrates that for the entire Initiative hegemony you were actively acting against us [the Order and the rest of The Initiative]. Of course, you were actively against us from before that, you just required our resources (economic, political, diplomatic and military) to clear the way for your would-be rise to the top. In that much the situation is reversed: FAN saw us (and the rest of The Initiative as later demonstrated) as meat-shields; they were just too incompetent to capitalise on their world-view.

In any case, the point was that Rotavele's view of the world back then is quite ridiculous, a point on which I doubt either of us could honestly disagree.

[Electron Sponge]

The Third Great War is early because it marked the victory of The Initiative, and as such demonstrates that for the entire Initiative hegemony you were actively acting against us [the Order and the rest of The Initiative]. Of course, you were actively against us from before that, you just required our resources (economic, political, diplomatic and military) to clear the way for your would-be rise to the top. In that much the situation is reversed: FAN saw us (and the rest of The Initiative as later demonstrated) as meat-shields; they were just too incompetent to capitalise on their world-view.

This is patently and blatantly false. You're either an idiot or a liar or both. You tell me which.

[Vladimir]

Why don't you tell me where it is false first and then explain how it is blatantly so. An extra 10 points if you can do so without 'massaging' your own ego in the process.

[Electron Sponge]

Why don't you tell me where it is false first and then explain how it is blatantly so. An extra 10 points if you can do so without 'massaging' your own ego in the process.

First off, FAN fought admirably for our side in the Second Great War, and were undertaking unconventional operations during the entire antebellum period in order to help ensure our eventual victory. Far from them needing NPO's resources, they were a resource for NPO giving advice to the very inept NPO military from that period in time and fighting their own wars without any help from the Order at all. They correctly perceived the inequalities in the relationship between themselves and NPO and decided that the world would probably be a better place if the Orders were taken down a few pegs. The only people who were using the Initiative as a meat shield were in NPO. That was the whole point of the Initiative. Your previous statement is blatantly false because as you were an Imperial Officer at the time you should very well know the truth of the situation, and you have misrepresented it in its entirety here. Since I care exactly zero for your extra 10 points I will add that I am both handsome and charming, and that I am very popular with the ladies.

So which is it, Vlad? Are you an idiot or a liar?

Edited April 11, 2009 by Electron Sponge