Issues Regarding “Fall Barbarossa”

[Kaiser Martens]

That plus we ICly anticipated the move.

[Comrade]

Edit: Oops!

Edited April 9, 2009 by Comrade

[Justinian the Mighty]

Yeah but if he doesn't respond to me really, my forces, who would have moved to block certain points realsitically cannot move in. That is my main issue, he's not really RPing a legit defense till his reinforcements arrive, when in reality there wouldn't be the time.

The NC's invasion was seen well before it was even conceived. When Slavorussia and friends failed to capture Kaiser Martens they knew Nordland would return. Their suspicions were reinforced when Prussian invaded Germany to unify the two countries, obviously an attempt to bring back Nordland. From that point on Slavorussia built up western defenses. Then for some odd reason the NC did the military exercise thing. Slavorussia went to Defcon 2 and stayed there.

The defenses are mostly minefields and dragon's teeth. The dragon's teeth to slow you down, and the mines slim down the invading forces. Then I used a little guerilla warfare to slim your forces down more. I think that’s a legit defense. Not only are they stalling until allies arrive, but they're also trying to exert as little energy as possible while forcing the enemy to exert as much energy as possible, and deplete their supplies quickly.

The reason I think you would deplete your resources is because of the nuclear war. central Europe was the epicenter of the war. Those countries would be unable to produce enough food for their massive armies, and civilians. So either your army suffers of your people do. when civilians suffer revolutions start, and Germany the Netherlands and Prussia leave the war. leaving the CSSR Norsvea Nordheim and Molokia to face the full brunt of the resistance. Of those 4 the CSSR is the most formidable, but can the CSSR hold out against Slavorussia, who is only slightly less powerful, then you have Bosporan the Northern Empire Crimea Iso and maybe Altin Urda. Molokia would be overrun quickly in my opinion. Then I would expect Norsvea and Nordeim to either surrender or be invaded from the Baltic Sea.

I think for a war noob thats a damn good strategy.

[Triyun]

All the sides have RPed significant reconstruction. Furthermore, your not slightly less, powerful, your a 30k less NS than me. You still need to take damage from my tactics rather than ignoring them and doing the exact thing that I specifically had my tactics prevent. Also admittedly I have not been paying that close attention, but did you RP all these developments on your borders. It seems your making a lot of revisionist arm chair generals.

Finally, it takes a while for reinforcements to arrive, I'm attacking right now, you have to deal with my initial blitz. Also I'd point out its not your job to assess their strategic viability. Your facing several nations stronger than you, claiming their worthless is god modding which is what I am seeing.

[Kaiser Martens]

The NC's invasion was seen well before it was even conceived. When Slavorussia and friends failed to capture Kaiser Martens they knew Nordland would return. Their suspicions were reinforced when Prussian invaded Germany to unify the two countries, obviously an attempt to bring back Nordland. From that point on Slavorussia built up western defenses. Then for some odd reason the NC did the military exercise thing. Slavorussia went to Defcon 2 and stayed there.

Yes, but Defcon is not just something that you "put" and makes your troops "Better", by itself it means nothing at all.

The defenses are mostly minefields and dragon's teeth. The dragon's teeth to slow you down, and the mines slim down the invading forces. Then I used a little guerilla warfare to slim your forces down more. I think that’s a legit defense. Not only are they stalling until allies arrive, but they're also trying to exert as little energy as possible while forcing the enemy to exert as much energy as possible, and deplete their supplies quickly.

All we had to do was shoot the dragonteeth with AT guns and move on, as for the mines, flail tanks and mesh tanks made a really short work of them to the point in which they didn't contribute at all, in fact, I have only RPed ever losing *one* vehicle to mines, by accident. The guerilla was mostly useless because the formations are armored, although I did RP a few losses from it. Thing is I had oversaturated the area with artillery and air bombarding, so that screwed up your troops and surely also preemtively exploded some minefields ahead. Also, we didn't "stop" to fight your guerilla guys, we just pushed forth. Not to mention your tanks are downright "one-shot-killable" by ours and in many cases can't even kill our tanks unless they're *VERY* close, T-90 is a really low quality outdated designed compared to what we are fielding. Supplies? Even poor nations are able to muster supplies to support their armies.

The reason I think you would deplete your resources is because of the nuclear war. central Europe was the epicenter of the war. Those countries would be unable to produce enough food for their massive armies, and civilians. So either your army suffers of your people do. when civilians suffer revolutions start, and Germany the Netherlands and Prussia leave the war. leaving the CSSR Norsvea Nordheim and Molokia to face the full brunt of the resistance. Of those 4 the CSSR is the most formidable, but can the CSSR hold out against Slavorussia, who is only slightly less powerful, then you have Bosporan the Northern Empire Crimea Iso and maybe Altin Urda. Molokia would be overrun quickly in my opinion. Then I would expect Norsvea and Nordeim to either surrender or be invaded from the Baltic Sea.

That is not correct and will not take place for two reasons:

1: If they own the troops IG, they own it IC, period. There's no way the troops will run out of bullets, starve, or face a revolution. We're not Tsarist Russia.

2: We RPed a lot of rebuilding and the people being fanatically in our favor, additionally, no nuke ever fired hit a Production Area, always troops and cities, but never were they directed specifically to natural resources or industrial things.

I think for a war noob thats a damn good strategy.

It is a wishful strategy, I do not doubt your sincerity in thinking it's good, and it certainly seems as if I'm inherently biased, but, frankly, at this point you're so outnumbered and facing better equipment that some mines and dragonteeth will be as good as the good ol' polish cavalry charge, so to speak, fighting bravely cannot stop overwhelming numbers and overwhelming troop quality.

Btw I added to the negotiations thread that we can do the same agreement plus you keep some baltic coastal stuff around St Petersburg if you're interested, if not, well, it's only gonna get ugly (or nicer)

[Justinian the Mighty]

Triyun all your strength comes from your tech, nukes and navy, that’s the chief advantage you have over me. You’re not using nukes and your navy would be countered by coastal defenses. Extensive reconstruction? I don't recall. Yes I did rp the developments on my border, I admit it was very vague and was never finished. It was mostly crap dealing with my air force, but other upgrades could be inferred.

I'm dealing with the initial blitz. If the problem is that I'm not giving casualties then I hope you'll remind everyone else to do it too. Yes the invasion is a catastrophe Slavorussians are taking heavy fire and sustaining considerable casualties. If that’s what you need me to post I can, if not then be more specific please.

Oh and I forgot I still maintain my position that missile defense can shoot down EMP missiles.

Edit: KM Defcon 2 to me means we get ready for war. Troops are deployed, aircraft are fueled, mines fields are layed, defense systems become fully operational, factories are converted to produce wartime equipment etc.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Justinian the Mighty

[JerreyRough]

And this is why I am starting to enjoy making my game concept more than CNRP, as well as just blogging in general.

[Kaiser Martens]

Triyun all your strength comes from your tech, nukes and navy, that’s the chief advantage you have over me. You’re not using nukes and your navy would be countered by coastal defenses. Extensive reconstruction? I don't recall. Yes I did rp the developments on my border, I admit it was very vague and was never finished. It was mostly crap dealing with my air force, but other upgrades could be inferred.

Yes, but: You're not fighting Triyun

You're fighting him, me, prussia, vektor, and molakia all combined: You simply can't stop us all. Surely if you get your troops together you can realistically hold back *ONE* of the offensives, but your current "delay them all with minimum troops" tactic is more like just sending your guys to get slaughtered one by one without any effect against us. So you are in each front badly outnumbered and "out-teched"

I'm dealing with the initial blitz. If the problem is that I'm not giving casualties then I hope you'll remind everyone else to do it too. Yes the invasion is a catastrophe Slavorussians are taking heavy fire and sustaining considerable casualties. If that’s what you need me to post I can, if not then be more specific please

Well, it just seemed like you were only sustaining minimum casualties and claiming to be able to stop us with perhaps one third of the troops we're each deploying to a front, which seemed rather inaccurate. I haven't posted casualties because the casualties I've had were really extremely minimal, not even in the hundreds yet,although that will change once you reply to the Battle of Kaunas we're engaging with, the first "Serious battle"

[Comrade]

My troops are of moderate quality Slavo. As much as i love taking land, i wouldnt mind getting some ground resistance. If you love St. Petersburg, take it back!

While we may be overwhelming you, you can still inflict horrible casualities...just pick your targets

[Malatose]

The defenses are mostly minefields and dragon's teeth. The dragon's teeth to slow you down, and the mines slim down the invading forces. Then I used a little guerilla warfare to slim your forces down more. I think that’s a legit defense. Not only are they stalling until allies arrive, but they're also trying to exert as little energy as possible while forcing the enemy to exert as much energy as possible, and deplete their supplies quickly.

In June 1941, the Soviet Union tried the exact same tactic. Result? They were overrun by overwhelming infantry and armour, who also enjoyed the advantage of having better and technologically superior equipment. Guerilla attacks woundn't stall an army of 600,000 men. If anything, it'd agitate them, forcing them to take hardline measures against the civilian population. Not to mention, with the advent of UAVs, I could easily pinpoint the general area of resistance and direct air power to constantly harass you. It's a good tactic on paper, but in reality it has never really worked.

The reason I think you would deplete your resources is because of the nuclear war. central Europe was the epicenter of the war. Those countries would be unable to produce enough food for their massive armies, and civilians. So either your army suffers of your people do. when civilians suffer revolutions start, and Germany the Netherlands and Prussia leave the war. leaving the CSSR Norsvea Nordheim and Molokia to face the full brunt of the resistance. Of those 4 the CSSR is the most formidable, but can the CSSR hold out against Slavorussia, who is only slightly less powerful, then you have Bosporan the Northern Empire Crimea Iso and maybe Altin Urda. Molokia would be overrun quickly in my opinion. Then I would expect Norsvea and Nordeim to either surrender or be invaded from the Baltic Sea.

For your information, the only areas nuked in the war was Italy. The rest were EMP'd. Therefore, the rebuilding factor does not exactly effect us, as you'd hope. Also before the war even started, we RP'd extensive rebuilding efforts in our nations.

Triyun all your strength comes from your tech, nukes and navy, that’s the chief advantage you have over me. You’re not using nukes and your navy would be countered by coastal defenses. Extensive reconstruction? I don't recall. Yes I did rp the developments on my border, I admit it was very vague and was never finished. It was mostly crap dealing with my air force, but other upgrades could be inferred.

I believe you have to RP all your defenses before hand. During the last European War, the UFE and Germany were severely punished for not fully RPing the applying of EMP protection on all electronics, even though with today's technology it can be inferred.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Malatose

[Generalissimo]

However, this whole thing does not give the attackers the right to simply blow over his defenses like that *snaps fingers,* or blame him whern he doesn't have time to respond to every single aspect of SEVERAL walls of text!

How is Justinian supposed to reply when you keep post blitzing him? There are literally pages to respond, which is way these sort of conflicts should be established in advance. Edited April 9, 2009 by Generalissimo

[Centurius]

My troops are of moderate quality Slavo. As much as i love taking land, i wouldnt mind getting some ground resistance. If you love St. Petersburg, take it back!

While we may be overwhelming you, you can still inflict horrible casualities...just pick your targets

Trust me once the reinforcements arrive Slavo doesn't need to

On all other stuff, well Justinian while I'm on your side you just as everyone needs to give numbers. On the other side while lower in tech he should have some defender advantages as he knows the area and has public support.

[Malatose]

Trust me once the reinforcements arrive Slavo doesn't need to

On all other stuff, well Justinian while I'm on your side you just as everyone needs to give numbers. On the other side while lower in tech he should have some defender advantages as he knows the area and has public support.

I gave numbers. In my latest Post

[Justinian the Mighty]

Are we going to give numbers, just give general descriptions of our losses like "we had heavy losses" or "casualties were minimal"

Also I'm going to bed... soon.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Justinian the Mighty

[Centurius]

I gave numbers. In my latest Post

I didn't said you didn't I just said everyone has too

[JEDCJT]

Yes, but: You're not fighting Triyun

You're fighting him, me, prussia, vektor, and molakia all combined: You simply can't stop us all. Surely if you get your troops together you can realistically hold back *ONE* of the offensives, but your current "delay them all with minimum troops" tactic is more like just sending your guys to get slaughtered one by one without any effect against us. So you are in each front badly outnumbered and "out-teched"

Look at this way: the Soviet Union faced several nations all at once in 1941. Germany, Romania, Hungary, Finland, Bulgaria, Italy, among with others. That, and Justinian isn't in this alone; his allies are in this, and I believe more will be coming soon.

In June 1941, the Soviet Union tried the exact same tactic. Result? They were overrun by overwhelming infantry and armour, who also enjoyed the advantage of having better and technologically superior equipment. Guerilla attacks woundn't stall an army of 600,000 men. If anything, it'd agitate them, forcing them to take hardline measures against the civilian population. Not to mention, with the advent of UAVs, I could easily pinpoint the general area of resistance and direct air power to constantly harass you. It's a good tactic on paper, but in reality it has never really worked.

And yet the Soviet Union won by 1945, although it is admited that they needed Allied assistance and support to continue fighting on in the war. And guerrilla warfare (or partisan warfare in this case) CAN and DOES stall a large army. During WWII, the Germans had to divert increasing number of troops from the front to deal with the partisan threat. Less troops on the front = less resistance the Soviets had to contend with. The same thing here.

And hardline measures against civilian population = increased impetus to partisan resistance. You treat the civilian population more harshly, the more likely they put up resistance, one way or another -- and that includes partisan war. The Germans treated the Soviet population very harshly, and as a result, they pretty much turned the Soviet people against them. Remember, the Soviet population welcomed the German invaders with open arms at first in the opening phases of Operation Barbarossa.

How is Justinian supposed to reply when you keep post blitzing him? There are literally pages to respond, which is way these sort of conflicts should be established in advance.

This. Give Justinian some time to reply to all posts. IMO, it's not respectable if you keep on posting more and more without giving him time. How would you feel if you had to respond to TONS of posts, all filled with incredibly detailed war stuff -- and you had to deal with RL at the same time? It can be overwhelming.

Edited April 9, 2009 by JEDCJT

[Justinian the Mighty]

Look at this way: the Soviet Union faced several nations all at once in 1941. Germany, Romania, Hungary, Finland, Bulgaria, Italy, among with others. That, and Justinian isn't in this alone; his allies are in this, and I believe more will be coming soon.

And yet the Soviet Union won by 1945, although it is admited that they needed Allied assistance and support to continue fighting on in the war. And guerrilla warfare (or partisan warfare in this case) CAN and DOES stall a large army. During WWII, the Germans had to divert increasing number of troops from the front to deal with the partisan threat. Less troops on the front = less resistance the Soviets had to contend with. The same thing here.

And hardline measures against civilian population = increased impetus to partisan resistance. You treat the civilian population more harshly, the more likely they put up resistance, one way or another -- and that includes partisan war. The Germans treated the Soviet population very harshly, and as a result, they pretty much turned the Soviet people against them. Remember, the Soviet population welcomed the German invaders with open arms at first in the opening phases of Operation Barbarossa.

This. Give Justinian some time to reply to all posts. IMO, it's not respectable if you keep on posting more and more without giving him time. How would you feel if you had to respond to TONS of posts, all filled with incredibly detailed war stuff -- and you had to deal with RL at the same time? It can be overwhelming.

Ty Jed. True the dragon's teeth can be destroyed or moved without expending a lot of resources, they weren't intended to stop NC armies dead in their tracks, just slow them down and give Slavorussia a chance to reach full wartime mobilization, and stall for time until allies can arrive.

I dont want everyone to think I’m using my civilians to fight the war. Although not mentioned the citizens are scared, and view the invaders as, well invaders. You're already terrifying the people of the country by invading and forcing them to evacuate and move east. You're burning national parks and wildlife reserves to clear the and that's having a very serious effect on the small towns and villages near those forests.

And Guerilla warfare is actually very effective against even the most organized armies, it was used against the British in the American Revolution, against the Germans in WWII, and most famously in Vietnam. I know your soldiers are traveling in armored vehicles, that’s why Slavorussians have armor piercing weapons, and explosives.

I'm learning as I go, and I still have an optimistic view toward the war.

[Uberstein]

Vietnam is a horrible example for guerrilla warfare as being good. The troops won, the politicians gave it away. If you look at the casualties between the Americans and the Vietcong, it's about 200k for us, a million for them. The reason for this is helicopters mainly, as seen by the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, which would have been won by the USSR if not for Amerian anti-helicopter equipment give to the rebels.

Also, we have to factor in that the USSR outproduced Germany, had more troops, and that Hitler kept making large military blunders.

1. He didn't drive to Moscow when he had the chance in the spring, he decided to go down to Greece then back to Moscow, and by that time it was winter.

2. At Stalingrad he split his forces up to go capture the oilfields and city at the same time, instead of taking one first then the other with full strength.

And many more examples, like ordering the Panther into combat before it was fully ready and having a tank that broke down a lot in it's early versions.

The main reason these wars against guerrilla forces have been lost is political influence, from the protests in the US to the international pressure on the USSR in Afganistan.

[Uberstein]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1396925

So people can reply if they want, here is an interesting note:

[Centurius]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1396925

So people can reply if they want, here is an interesting note:

Yeah it's a nice approach indeed though I'm waiting for Justinian to use it first as it is his City.

[Uberstein]

Yeah it's a nice approach indeed though I'm waiting for Justinian to use it first as it is his City.

So he can ignore RP continuity yet complains that people arn't RPing THEIR own pasts? I'm just saying, why ignore a good thing?

[Centurius]

So he can ignore RP continuity yet complains that people arn't RPing THEIR own pasts? I'm just saying, why ignore a good thing?

Lol not saying he can just saying I consider it proper to let hit use it first

[Uberstein]

Lol not saying he can just saying I consider it proper to let hit use it first

Why couldn't he use it first? I don't think Molakia has gotten to the final Uberstein-Slavorussian boarder. I have a map SOMEWHERE.

[Centurius]

Why couldn't he use it first? I don't think Molakia has gotten to the final Uberstein-Slavorussian boarder. I have a map SOMEWHERE.

Sorry spelling I am saying Slavorussia should use it before any of us allied to him do.

[sir jesus]

I am confused as to why missile defenses won't block EMP missiles. They are mounted on cruise missiles, correct? Because that is specifically what missile defenses are meant to target... SDI's are solely used for nuclear weapons mounted on ICBMs.