Principles of Pacifica "Weekly" Address #10

[HeinousOne]

Really? For an "independent thinker," you don't get dates very well.

It amuses me that people are taking this tongue-in-cheek piece seriously, far more than the piece ever could amuse me on its own.

Yes yes, a big joke. My independent thinking tells me that you opportunistically put this out on April 1st to use its "joke" status as a cover while then hoping that the words of this piece really do ring true to some. You talk about how it is amusing that some might take this piece seriously yet you guys take a war against a bunch of new nations to the world seriously while they have hardly any backing and you have multiple large alliances backing the largest alliance of them all against the "massive" threat that is the Jarheads. The only thing that the Open Warfare status affects at this point is the status of anyone that might wish to freely leave the NPO.

Let's make a deal. You drop the Jarheads war status from Open Warfare to a general "policing action" like that of Fan or Vox. Then NPO members will be free to leave if they wish and will not be held against their will while you "jokingly" subject them to propaganda pieces about the new ideology of the Original Emperor. If you do that within a week then I will apologize profusely for taking this joke seriously because then it will be obvious that you really do not fear an exodus of members.

Sad that you decided to make it personal. I was actually serious about thanking you for putting the effort into such.

Edited April 3, 2009 by HeinousOne

[Commisar Gaunt]

You talk like not being a Francoist is a bad thing. I assure you that you need to reevaluate your thesis.

[Cortath]

Yes yes, a big joke. My independent thinking tells me that you opportunistically put this out on April 1st to use its "joke" status as a cover while the hoping that the words of this piece really do ring true to some. You talk about how it is amusing that some might take this piece seriously yet you guys take a war against a bunch of new nations to the world seriously while they have hardly any backing and you have multiple large alliances backing the largest alliance of them all against the "massive" threat that is the Jarheads. The only thing that the Open Warfare status affects at this point is the status of anyone that might wish to freely leave the NPO.

Let's make a deal. You drop the Jarheads war status from Open Warfare to a general "policing action" like that of Fan or Vox. Then NPO members will be free to leave if they wish and will not be held against their will while you "jokingly" subject them to propaganda pieces about the new ideology of the Original Emperor. If you do that within a week then I will apologize profusely for taking this joke seriously because then it will be obvious that you really do not fear an exodus of members.

Sad that you decided to make it personal. I was actually serious about thanking you for putting the effort into such.

I mean, honestly...Francoism is a complex scientific philosophy. The NSO doesn't espouse any official philosophy that I've seen around, beyond a couple statements about being Sith, evil, and the Rule of Two. There's no great philosophical controversy between us, and this piece was clearly tongue-in-cheek, poking fun at the fact that when the NSO was formed, all the silly anti-NPO people went, "Ooh, NPO is going to attack them, there will be war," and similar silliness.

Your analysis of the Jarheads conflict is flawed. As you, and any person familiar with the event knows, we have given all new nations the opportunity to remove themselves from the conflict. We are only making war against those nations that attack us and those nations that originally perpetrated the conflict against us.

A few other points: as far as Francoism goes, Moldavi isn't the "Original Emperor." Francos Spain was. Not saying I don't have a deep and abiding respect for Moldavi. I do; we've known each for many, many years, but the way you phrase it, it sounds as if I'm trying to defend against some sort of ideological struggle. I'm not. The propagation of Francoism was never a strong point in Moldavi's platform, and I think he will admit that. He's admitted that he's trying a new thing, and I respect that.

And really...for the people who read what I usually write, it tends to be very dense, philosophy, that people who need a tl;dr simply do not read. This was written in a lightly humorous literary style, and only dealt very lightly with philosophy, and it was posted on April 1. If I wanted to post a line by line analysis of Sith philosophy (not that the NSO has propaganda any philosophical pieces based on the Sith), I could have. I don't intend to, because it's not necessary. The NSO is not Francoist, isn't pretending to be Francoist, and is in fact, in the words of its Sith Lord, based explicitly on a "new" foundation for an alliance.

To Commissar Grunt: I assure you that I do not. Thank you for your subtle critique.

[Lyria]

I'd like to see an answer to the basic question:

"Why does it matter?"

I hate to be the one to quote myself.

But in that rather lengthy post you couldn't have directed a response at what many of us are thinking? Why does it matter?

Perhaps you tangentially answered that by saying it was meant to be released on April 1.

[Commisar Gaunt]

It's Commisar Gaunt, Cortath. Prove to me in some future essay that not being a Francoist is a bad thing and then you can talk down to me.

[Cortath]

I hate to be the one to quote myself.

But in that rather lengthy post you couldn't have directed a response at what many of us are thinking? Why does it matter?

Perhaps you tangentially answered that by saying it was meant to be released on April 1.

Why does it matter? It's a humorous piece. It matters because it amused me.

It's Commisar Gaunt, Cortath. Prove to me in some future essay that not being a Francoist is a bad thing and then you can talk down to me.

My apologies for misspelling your name. I don't always type things correctly.

Not being a Francoist means you're stuck in a state of nature. There have been many essays written, namely the Paradox of Freedom by Vladimir, explaining why that is bad, and the Primer on Francoism, written by myself, covering the same issue among others.

[Commisar Gaunt]

But you have yet to come up with a clear definition of Francoism, aside from the idea that it's everything that you need it to be at the moment. Smoke and mirrors do not a philosophy make. Think of this as some sort of request for a definition of Francoism that actually defines Francoism.

[HeinousOne]

Your analysis of the Jarheads conflict is flawed. As you, and any person familiar with the event knows, we have given all new nations the opportunity to remove themselves from the conflict. We are only making war against those nations that attack us and those nations that originally perpetrated the conflict against us.

I never said you should not have declared war upon them. What is wrong is to declare those traitors whom decide to leave on their own during such. How much NS has Pacifica lost during the hard pressing war? Do you deny that if an NPO member decided at this point they just didn't wish to be with the NPO anymore that they would have to wait until you decide that it is ok due to the Open Warfare status?

The Jarheads operation is fine, an alliance must protect its interests. Thing is it doesnt appear as if the true target of the war is actually the Jarheads. How many members of NPO do not have a target on the Jarheads and how many members of NPO have not even sent aid to a member fighting the jarheads? Perhaps you can fill me in since my analysis is so flawed?

[RobertFitzy]

Francoism sounds more like an analyst of your critics & enemies struggle, they are the ones challenging power to usher in change. Trying to once again bring order and balance to a chaotic hegemony that no longer can hold back fear of the smallest forces; reacting instead like the immune system to an allergen, going beyond a point of balanced fair resistance to mere destructiveness to not only the small problem but the whole body, or in this case the civility this planet, that drags out almost always indefinitely.

[Cortath]

But you have yet to come up with a clear definition of Francoism, aside from the idea that it's everything that you need it to be at the moment. Smoke and mirrors do not a philosophy make. Think of this as some sort of request for a definition of Francoism that actually defines Francoism.

I believe I have. See the links to my collected works, as well as what Vladimir and others have written. We've taken great pains to write a great deal about Francoism.

I'm sorry that you don't think they're clear. Philosophy isn't always easy.

I never said you should not have declared war upon them. What is wrong is to declare those traitors whom decide to leave on their own during such. How much NS has Pacifica lost during the hard pressing war? Do you deny that if an NPO member decided at this point they just didn't wish to be with the NPO anymore that they would have to wait until you decide that it is ok due to the Open Warfare status?

The Jarheads operation is fine, an alliance must protect its interests. Thing is it doesnt appear as if the true target of the war is actually the Jarheads. How many members of NPO do not have a target on the Jarheads and how many members of NPO have not even sent aid to a member fighting the jarheads? Perhaps you can fill me in since my analysis is so flawed?

Your analysis was flawed because you shifted your arguments. First the Jarheads war is unjust. Now you're swinging your argument around to NPO's policies towards its own members, when before it was this great injustice against new players. I shall address this new argument you've brought up below.

People who leave during war without applying for dispensation from the Emperor are deserters. This is simple. The Emperor is not unmindful of certain situations and legitimate reasons for leaving an alliance, and he has and no doubt will continue to grant that dispensation for those who wish to leave. Those who leave without following the proper procedures will be punished. It is simple.

Edited April 3, 2009 by Cortath

[Cortath]

Francoism sounds more like an analyst of your critics & enemies struggle, they are the ones challenging power to usher in change. Trying to once again bring order and balance to a chaotic hegemony that no longer can hold back fear of the smallest forces; reacting instead like the immune system to an allergen, going beyond a point of balanced fair resistance to mere destructiveness to not only the small problem but the whole body, or in this case the civility this planet, that drags out almost always indefinitely.

The facts do not seem to bear out your argument. Firstly, Francoism is not based on our enemies' struggle. Francoism existed long before our present enemies existed and will continue exist long after they have been wiped from the earth.

I don't see "destructiveness to [...] the whole body." As far as I can tell, the majority of the world is in peace and has prosperity.

[HeinousOne]

I believe I have. See the links to my collected works, as well as what Vladimir and others have written. We've taken great pains to write a great deal about Francoism.

I'm sorry that you don't think they're clear. Philosophy isn't always easy.

Your analysis was flawed because you shifted your arguments. First the Jarheads war is unjust. Now you're swinging your argument around to NPO's policies towards its own members, when before it was this great injustice against new players. I shall address this new argument you've brought up below.

People who leave during war without applying for dispensation from the Emperor are deserters. This is simple. The Emperor is not unmindful of certain situations and legitimate reasons for leaving an alliance, and he has and no doubt will continue to grant that dispensation for those who wish to leave. Those who leave without following the proper procedures will be punished. It is simple.

Now it is you that is misreading. I never said the war was unjust, I have repeatedly said it is unjust to treat it with the same urgency as every other war in the past. It is nothing more then a policing action and you have other alliances helping you out with it. I bet most of your members can tell they are in a war on a daily basis only by the war status on your forum. The fact that your members have to ask permission to leave during such a lackluster war is a bit of a slap in the face. Granted, it is better then no allowance at all. A shame the game does not store the stats of when an AA is placed on a nation and when it is removed. Then we could see easily how many have left. I suppose OpSec keeps you from being able to share how many requests have been denied?

[Cortath]

Now it is you that is misreading. I never said the war was unjust, I have repeatedly said it is unjust to treat it with the same urgency as every other war in the past. It is nothing more then a policing action and you have other alliances helping you out with it. I bet most of your members can tell they are in a war on a daily basis only by the war status on your forum. The fact that your members have to ask permission to leave during such a lackluster war is a bit of a slap in the face. Granted, it is better then no allowance at all. A shame the game does not store the stats of when an AA is placed on a nation and when it is removed. Then we could see easily how many have left. I suppose OpSec keeps you from being able to share how many requests have been denied?

War is war. You don't train soldiers to shoot "softer" because the enemy is weak. You kill your enemy when they come, regardless of their strength.

We respect our soldiers and we provide them with some of the greatest benefits any alliance can give them. We have an outstanding war machine, and our people know it. That we are privileged with such fine soldiers we all know, and that we are privileged with a war and economic system to support them so well we know too. Our soldiers appreciate that when we go to war, we mean business on all fronts, and that we ask that we all treat war as a serious matter is a small price to pay for the protection and support we give all our members, and indeed, the entire Red Sphere.

I don't have numbers on any such requests. It's not my business to keep them. You could ask the Emperor.

Edited April 3, 2009 by Cortath

[Sal Paradise]

Really? For an "independent thinker," you don't get dates very well.

That was a low blow, sir. I'm sure HeinousOne is a handsome, intelligent young man that has no problem persuading women to meet him for romantic evenings.

Edited April 3, 2009 by Sal Paradise

[Cortath]

That was a low blow, sir. I'm sure HeinousOne is a handsome, intelligent young man that has no problem persuading women to meet him for romantic evenings.

I do not doubt this.

[HeinousOne]

War is war. You don't train soldiers to shoot "softer" because the enemy is weak. You kill your enemy when they come, regardless of their strength.

We respect our soldiers and we provide them with some of the greatest benefits any alliance can give them. We have an outstanding war machine, and our people know it. That we are privileged with such fine soldiers we all know, and that we are privileged with a war and economic system to support them so well we know too. Our soldiers appreciate that when we go to war, we mean business on all fronts, and that we ask that we all treat war as a serious matter is a small price to pay for the protection and support we give all our members, and indeed, the entire Red Sphere.

I don't have numbers on any such requests. It's not my business to keep them. You could ask the Emperor.

I surely can appreciate a little waving of the rally flag sir. I would never debate with you on the efficiency of the war machine. I was once part of it. In fact that is why I speak with you about how seriously you take the Jarheads war. All of your above points support what I am saying here. Between yourselves and your allies I am sure you already have any jarhead not in peace mode thoroughly beaten. Will this go on till they are driven from the world?

That was a low blow, sir. I'm sure HeinousOne is a handsome, intelligent young man that has no problem persuading women to meet him for romantic evenings.

No matter how hard I try Sal, you seem to always do better with much more efficiency.

[Reachwind]

Francos Spain is in the New Sith Order.

Thread over.

[Cortath]

I surely can appreciate a little waving of the rally flag sir. I would never debate with you on the efficiency of the war machine. I was once part of it. In fact that is why I speak with you about how seriously you take the Jarheads war. All of your above points support what I am saying here. Between yourselves and your allies I am sure you already have any jarhead not in peace mode thoroughly beaten. Will this go on till they are driven from the world?

I do not command Pacifica's war machine, nor do I pretend to be involved in military matters. I specialize in economics. Generally speaking, it has been my observation that we take all of our conflicts very seriously, particularly the clean-up. We take people who raid on our smaller nations very seriously, and we take people who continue to raid on Red Sphere nations very seriously.

Particularly in regards to the Red Sphere, we take it seriously. The Moldavi and Revenge Doctrines are two sides of the same coin. Because we permit no other alliances in Red, we must take the greatest pains to be sure that those nations on Red who do not wish to join the NPO and cannot join another alliance while remaining on Red are adequately protected. Jarheads threatens that protection and the Red Sphere, and for that they shall and must die.

[Cortath]

Thread over.

That was an excellent contribution.[/sarcasm]

Francos Spain left that past world during the great battle in the torrential waters of the North Pacific. He shall always be remembered.

[HeinousOne]

I do not command Pacifica's war machine, nor do I pretend to be involved in military matters. I specialize in economics. Generally speaking, it has been my observation that we take all of our conflicts very seriously, particularly the clean-up. We take people who raid on our smaller nations very seriously, and we take people who continue to raid on Red Sphere nations very seriously.

Particularly in regards to the Red Sphere, we take it seriously. The Moldavi and Revenge Doctrines are two sides of the same coin. Because we permit no other alliances in Red, we must take the greatest pains to be sure that those nations on Red who do not wish to join the NPO and cannot join another alliance while remaining on Red are adequately protected. Jarheads threatens that protection and the Red Sphere, and for that they shall and must die.

Once again sir, I am not objecting to any of this. I was always and will continue to be an advocate of the protection of the Red Sphere. I think it could be taken a bit further but it is still an honorable intention. The thing is, this is going to be a long drawn out fight that will never really threaten NPO itself. Since that major threat is now missing due to quick and decisive action, it seems the high threat level is not necessary. Yes, some NPO nations are fighting and yes some other NPO nations are sending aid. How is that really different then usual? While I resided with you and would have called you comrade, the lower ranks were always in wars. They just have more targets now.

You bring up another question though, what is this you speak of about unaligned nations unable to join another alliance while remaining on Red?

[Lycurgus Rex]

Thread is dead, wait till next April fools day to repost I think...

[hizzy]

It amuses me that people are taking this tongue-in-cheek piece seriously, far more than the piece ever could amuse me on its own.

It amuses me more that you do not dwell on why your "tongue-in-cheek piece" receives more or less the same attitude in replies as your standard NPO pieces/propaganda/essays/etc.

[Griff]

fear an exodus of members.

Need we say more?

Edited April 3, 2009 by Griff

[Cortath]

Need we say more?

Probably. Complete English sentences need a subject.

[lebubu]

That was an excellent contribution.[/sarcasm]

You should open the tag before closing it, imo.