My Statement

[erikz]

*Gran being @#$% on IRC*

There would have been hell to pay and nukes to be thwarted if anyone was talking about my alliance that way.

Please GRAN; employ yourself some descent diplomats and govt members, before trying to make it in CN.

Bad PR = Very bad!

Edited March 23, 2009 by erikz

[FreddieMercury]

There would have been hell to pay and nukes to be thwarted if anyone was talking about my alliance that way.

Please GRAN; employ yourself some descent diplomats and govt members, before trying to make it in CN.

Bad PR = Very bad!

Agreed.

[Kilkenny]

Hmm... It's not like I have much experience or anything. And you look like quite the handsome fella'. But wouldn't you agree that GRAN's "vast" experience should have brought them to the conclusion that talking to Captain Flinders when he left GRAN would be a good thing? And maybe given his vast experience, he even expected them to do so?

It looks like GRAN wanted to show that they had some gonads, and you wanted to join in. Unfortunately for you, you walked right into the biggest and meanest butthole around, and traditionally, scrotum intestines don't like rear ends.

If you want to keep this discussion going, and by that be chewed up and spit out, be my guest. But I kindly advise you to take another look at the facts here. Then you might realize why you are wrong and how bad you will look when others come to the same conclusion.

Yah know, my opinion of you just keeps decreasing with every post you make. It seems to me that the prudent thing would have been to talk about repayment when he resigned. Having left TPF at one point, the first thing I did before posting a resignation was to check the status of any programs I was in to see if all time requirements had expired. Given that they had I just posted a resignation. If they hadn't my resignation post would have included re-payment plan.

Nothing I have said stated that Flinders was solely to blame in this accountants nightmare, but everyone else seems to blame only GRAN, and believes totally Flinders rough estimation of what he received. If that is good for you, good to know that you can be taken advantage of that way. But for me I like better records than that. All I have been doing is pointing out the other party in this train wreck of an aid nightmare, who everyone seems ot be giving a pass on.

BTW, I would have ZI'd him for 33 mil too, not just 60 mil. Aid theft is aid theft no matter the amount.

[JWConner]

Completely agreed, Kilkenny.

Lost in all the arguments is the fact that many people are standing by the side of Flinders completely on his word, but are condemning GRAN purely on theirs. It's rather hypocritical to call an alliance out like they are. Fact is, Flinders knew he owed money but never took the initiative to pay back what was owed. He was fully planning to leave after receiving aid until he was confronted. The point of the amount is purely semantics.

[Jordite]

Completely agreed, Kilkenny.

Lost in all the arguments is the fact that many people are standing by the side of Flinders completely on his word, but are condemning GRAN purely on theirs. It's rather hypocritical to call an alliance out like they are. Fact is, Flinders knew he owed money but never took the initiative to pay back what was owed. He was fully planning to leave after receiving aid until he was confronted. The point of the amount is purely semantics.

You claim Flinders never offered to repay his loan and was planning to leave before he received it. Flinders claims that he offered to repay what he thought he owed and had no plans to leave while receiving aid. So it's one word against another here, but Flinders was the one getting sanctioned and put on ZI lists. My problem with GRAN's actions stems from the fact that they tried to extort double money from Flinders as a result of a charter change after Flinders enrolled in the aid program, that they provided absolutely no proof of any aid transactions occurring at all, and the fact they seemed unwilling to listen to Flinders despite his assertion that he was willing to repay them the full $60 million.

[JBone]

Hmm... It's not like I have much experience or anything. And you look like quite the handsome fella'. But wouldn't you agree that GRAN's "vast" experience should have brought them to the conclusion that talking to Captain Flinders when he left GRAN would be a good thing? And maybe given his vast experience, he even expected them to do so?

It looks like GRAN wanted to show that they had some gonads, and you wanted to join in. Unfortunately for you, you walked right into the biggest and meanest butthole around, and traditionally, scrotum intestines don't like rear ends.

If you want to keep this discussion going, and by that be chewed up and spit out, be my guest. But I kindly advise you to take another look at the facts here. Then you might realize why you are wrong and how bad you will look when others come to the same conclusion.

The onus to initiate repayment talks, surely lies with the departing party, SJ.

GRAN, self admittedly, made some errors as did TGE and Flinders.

There is more than enough fark to go around in this cluster.

......nothing wrong with being ballsy.

Kilkenny never looks bad. Period.

I would rather have handled this a different way but Bob appears to be far more giving than I am.

Congrats to Flinders for finding peace.

Once again, we are of a similar mind.

Flinders....I LOLed.

Good show Bob. B)

[Kilkenny]

You claim Flinders never offered to repay his loan and was planning to leave before he received it. Flinders claims that he offered to repay what he thought he owed and had no plans to leave while receiving aid. So it's one word against another here, but Flinders was the one getting sanctioned and put on ZI lists. My problem with GRAN's actions stems from the fact that they tried to extort double money from Flinders as a result of a charter change after Flinders enrolled in the aid program, that they provided absolutely no proof of any aid transactions occurring at all, and the fact they seemed unwilling to listen to Flinders despite his assertion that he was willing to repay them the full $60 million.

So what you are saying is they were trying to get him to pay $120 mil?? (2x60=100). GRAN claimed teh program was designed to give him 60 mil and he completed the program. Flinders stated that he guesses the amount was really 33 mil. No where was any amount discussed that stated 66 mil or 120 mil, the double amounts listed. Did they change their charter because of this event? most likely just to prevent something like this from happening again.

And, Flinders did state he was willing to repay what he owed, but only after being placed on teh ZI list and while he was in peace mode. Seems like the time to say I will repay is before being placed on a ZI list, not after. Remember the OP in the WE are ZI'ing thread was not to open a debate, but to announce what had been decided.

[Haflinger]

You claim Flinders never offered to repay his loan and was planning to leave before he received it. Flinders claims that he offered to repay what he thought he owed and had no plans to leave while receiving aid. So it's one word against another here, but Flinders was the one getting sanctioned and put on ZI lists. My problem with GRAN's actions stems from the fact that they tried to extort double money from Flinders as a result of a charter change after Flinders enrolled in the aid program, that they provided absolutely no proof of any aid transactions occurring at all, and the fact they seemed unwilling to listen to Flinders despite his assertion that he was willing to repay them the full $60 million.

There's a principle of innocent until proven guilty that a lot of people think is a pretty good idea. I think what Jordite is saying is that normally the party seeking to pursue aggressive action is the one expected to show proof.

That's definitely what I'm saying.

[JWConner]

There's a principle of innocent until proven guilty that a lot of people think is a pretty good idea. I think what Jordite is saying is that normally the party seeking to pursue aggressive action is the one expected to show proof.

That's definitely what I'm saying.

Unfortunately on Bob, you're not innocent until proven guilty. You're guilty until proven innocent. It's a standard this game has seen hold true time after time.

And when the accused confirms that he was in a program to receive aid for a specific purpose (in this case an MP) he's going to be required to pay back any aid he's received, and it's on him to make the plans to pay back said aid.

I've known my friends in GRAN for a long time, and I tend to believe them that they have been honorable. By many of these people's admission, they don't know either party and are taking a side without any real knowledge of the people they are dealing with. This makes absolutely no sense to me.

So, this is why I believe my friends/allies. Why do you believe Flinders?

[Haflinger]

So, this is why I believe my friends/allies. Why do you believe Flinders?

I don't believe either side per se.

However, given a total lack of evidence provided, I'm inclined to suspect that this is just yet another case of a former alliance member being ZIed on a whim by his old alliance. I've seen far too many of those cases before.

My post was about where the burden of proof lies. Perhaps you should read it again.

[King Xander the Only]

Oh, Ok

[JWConner]

I don't believe either side per se.

However, given a total lack of evidence provided, I'm inclined to suspect that this is just yet another case of a former alliance member being ZIed on a whim by his old alliance. I've seen far too many of those cases before.

My post was about where the burden of proof lies. Perhaps you should read it again.

I read it and comprehended it just fine. My point is the burden of proof lies on the one being accused. He agreed he took aid for a program. He says it's one amount, the alliance says it's another. The question isnt that he owed money, it was the amount. The burden is on the individual to disprove those in power. Thats how the CN universe works.

[rsoxbronco1]

So, this is why I believe my friends/allies. Why do you believe Flinders?

I had 0 reason to believe Flinders when things started. I had never met, talked to, or heard of him. The original announcement confused me, however, because you had two different alliances ZIing the same person for what seemed like two different reasons. Even taking both announcements at face value, TGE really should not have been involved and the GRAN accusations seemed iffy based on Captain Flinders' responses in the thread. Those who asked questions are by no means AP hall monitors, but it would have been nice to see even the most basic kind of proof.

When Athens brought it up with TGE (who we have a good working relationship with) they reviewed their decision and decided it would be better to resume diplomatic contact with Flinders and they reached a mutually satisfactory agreement. Kind of funny considering Athens knows TGE due to our equally hasty DoW on them in August. Just shows that communication should always be the first recourse of alliances, not war.

GRAN's reaction to calls for any kind of evidence and their refusal to resume contact with Flinders is really the root issue. It's hard to hash out a deal when one party ignores the other.

[Yubyubsan]

And, please, everyone leave GRAN alone. They're really OK guys, too, once you get to know them.

Ooh, a glowing letter of support from a member of TGE. That's worth what, a sarcastic remark or two? It sure as hell isn't worth me taking the time to come up with a half-decent insult against what little remaining character your alliance may have.

BTW, I would have ZI'd him for 33 mil too, not just 60 mil. Aid theft is aid theft no matter the amount.

Flinders seems to me to be far too smart to join TPF. Of course, I could always be wrong. For his sake, I hope we never find out.

[JWConner]

Flinders seems to me to be far too smart to join TPF. Of course, I could always be wrong. For his sake, I hope we never find out.

I'd go more the route that TPF has too much class to allow someone with the character of Flinders. But hey, that's just me. I apparently drank the kool-aid Slayer was handing out way-back-when.

[Ejayrazz]

Summary? please of the thread

Edited March 23, 2009 by Ejayrazz

[Jordite]

Unfortunately on Bob, you're not innocent until proven guilty. You're guilty until proven innocent. It's a standard this game has seen hold true time after time.

But that's not how it should be. I shouldn't have to tell GRAN why they're wrong, they should tell me why they're right. And they're not right just because they have more NS than I do. They may be able to sanction me and maybe even ZI me but that doesn't make them right.

[rommelgrad]

Ooh, a glowing letter of support from a member of TGE. That's worth what, a sarcastic remark or two? It sure as hell isn't worth me taking the time to come up with a half-decent insult against what little remaining character your alliance may have.

This post is a shining example of your character, TGE fixed its problem yet you still wish to take jabs at us over nothing. A pathetic attempt to flame and flamebait.

More on topic, Congrats Flinders you have some good friends who are willing to sacrafice for you, don't let them down.

[SpiderJerusalem]

Too many quote blocs, therefore I'll use some code in here:

Yah know, my opinion of you just keeps decreasing with every post you make.

The day I am looking for your admiration is surprisingly the same day that pigs start to fly

It seems to me that the prudent thing would have been

Sorry, but when a TPF member starts talking about prudent things, I tend to drift away into candy land and dream about the chocolate river and the fudge mountains

Nothing I have said stated that Flinders was solely to blame in this accountants nightmare,

I agree that Flinders is not a knight in white armour here, but it's pretty obvious that GRAN didn't try to resolve this with the means expected of an alliance that want to have a decent chance of surviving in the long run here on our fine planet.

But for me I like better records than that.

So do I. That's why I am expecting GRAN to show some records of their aid program. I mean, it would be pretty hilarious if their aid program didn't have any written records. Right?

Aid theft is aid theft no matter the amount.

Let's say that someone gives you 10.000 because you're having a rough patch. A while later, your friendship wither and you drift away. Is it all right of them to tell you to pay the money back, and when you say "sure", they decide to punch you in the face instead?

The onus to initiate repayment talks, surely lies with the departing party, SJ.

And Flinders offered to repay them, did he not?

......nothing wrong with being ballsy.

Agreed

Kilkenny never looks bad. Period.

Everyone looks bad in the morning.

Did they change their charter because of this event?

Is it OK to change the rules after the game is played?

And, Flinders did state he was willing to repay what he owed, but only after being placed on teh ZI list and while he was in peace mode. Seems like the time to say I will repay is before being placed on a ZI list, not after. Remember the OP in the WE are ZI'ing thread was not to open a debate, but to announce what had been decided.

He was never asked to repay before they put him on a ZI list. GRAN just wanted to talk the talk. Too bad they can't walk the walk.

Haflinger:
There's a principle of innocent until proven guilty that a lot of people think is a pretty good idea.

I heard that some people agree with this principle.

[mhawk]

Flinders seems to me to be far too smart to join TPF.

Why is everyone always protesting deliverance... erm I mean TPF

[Haflinger]

I read it and comprehended it just fine. My point is the burden of proof lies on the one being accused. He agreed he took aid for a program. He says it's one amount, the alliance says it's another. The question isnt that he owed money, it was the amount. The burden is on the individual to disprove those in power. Thats how the CN universe works.

That's not how presumption of innocence works.

You don't get to say "Oh I proved SOME of my case, and you agreed with me, SO EVERYTHING ELSE I SAY MUST BE TRUE!"

That's just lousy logic. And it might be how CN works (although I don't think so), but I'm not going to agree with it ever.

[SpiderJerusalem]

I've known my friends in GRAN for a long time, and I tend to believe them that they have been honorable.

I will supply you with a nice sauce when you have to eat your words.

And yes. I am saving this quote for later

[hizzy]

I read it and comprehended it just fine. My point is the burden of proof lies on the one being accused. He agreed he took aid for a program. He says it's one amount, the alliance says it's another. The question isnt that he owed money, it was the amount. The burden is on the individual to disprove those in power. Thats how the CN universe works.

God, it's simultaneously sad and delicious when someone says something like this.

You KNOW you're going to end up on the other side of a similar dispute in the future, it's inevitable. Why set yourself up to get mocked, ridiculed, and ignored when it comes time to plead your own case and act like a human being?

[Kilkenny]

Ooh, a glowing letter of support from a member of TGE. That's worth what, a sarcastic remark or two? It sure as hell isn't worth me taking the time to come up with a half-decent insult against what little remaining character your alliance may have.

Flinders seems to me to be far too smart to join TPF. Of course, I could always be wrong. For his sake, I hope we never find out.

Given his current track record of accepting a costly build up program and then leaving? I think it is safe to say that we won't be finding out anytime soon.

Nice to know that yall don't care if someone takes your money and then leaves though.

[janax]

I care if someone takes our money and leaves.

I don't, however, put them on ZI less than 24 hours after the fact. I work with them to find a mutually acceptable repayment plan and an agreement on the amount owed. Since we actually have a list of how much people were set to receive, and a place to report it if they don't, it's not hard to track.

Money comes and goes, your reputation for how you conduct yoruself, whether it be e-peen waving or trying to work out an acceptable arrangement, is something less easily made up.