The End of PZI and Secret Terms?

[enderland]

No it doesn't. You might not believe it, but there was a time when PZI was unheard off. Wars were fought and nations were destroyed, but people went on with their lives, without the need to force anyone to quit playing or to ban whole communities from existence.

I myself like many other individuals don't have the power to change the current practice of PZI, but i can do my part by refusing to join or be allied in any form to an alliance that supports PZI.

You should read up on all your fellow members who keep talking about PZIing FreakSafari then on these boards

[Ogaden]

No it doesn't. You might not believe it, but there was a time when PZI was unheard off. Wars were fought and nations were destroyed, but people went on with their lives, without the need to force anyone to quit playing or to ban whole communities from existence.

I myself like many other individuals don't have the power to change the current practice of PZI, but i can do my part by refusing to join or be allied in any form to an alliance that supports PZI.

The thing about PZI is that it is the only way to prevent an alliance from attacking you long-term.

The world is simply not built in such a way that you can invade an alliance, defeat them decisively and force them to accept terms in which they leave you alone in the future, or accept any terms at all for that matter. You can't occupy nations, you can't build a giant wall, you can't do a lot of things.

The only thing in the toolbox for preventing a nation or an alliance from attacking you is basically to never allow them to grow.

If NPO could have just forced FAN or Vox Populi or whomever to specific peace terms through military victory, PZI or EZI would be unnecessary.

The same thing though means that even if they defeat us, or turn our allies against us, or otherwise knock us down, we have no need to accept that state of affairs. We can just decide to fight on forever, and if they will not PZI us, what's stopping us from a separate peace with the foes that just wanted to knock us down a peg, and then going after those who orchestrated our demise?

We would no longer be the #1 alliance, we might even lose our sanction, but alliances have bounced back from worse. We could even reclaim our #1 spot eventually.

Unless they PZI us, in which case there would be no bouncing back.

Edited March 27, 2009 by James Dahl

[Paradigm]

The thing about PZI is that it is the only way to prevent an alliance from attacking you long-term.

The world is simply not built in such a way that you can invade an alliance, defeat them decisively and force them to accept terms in which they leave you alone in the future, or accept any terms at all for that matter. You can't occupy nations, you can't build a giant wall, you can't do a lot of things.

The only thing in the toolbox for preventing a nation or an alliance from attacking you is basically to never allow them to grow.

I love the paradigm of thinking that answer comes from on so many levels!

When you step back and look at all those alliances that were ever allowed to launch attacks on NPO...oh wait.....

Notice how you used the word invade when describing all the alliances that needed to be squashed pre-emtively due to a colorful PR justification of "they will attack us long term"?

There are plenty of other options in the toolbox, only if people, GASP, are EVER WILLING to put to TEST the claims they like to make on being the superior group.

If your alliance is the top dog, if your block is the master.....why not let it stand on its own and face a force for the first time in recent CN history that is allowed to actually attack you. Just calling the reality for what it is......put down the pre-emption paradigm and watch a new game evolve.

Dont worry - I'm under no allusions - I know the answer why, as most of us do....the house of cards would all come down if such a test was ever allowed to materialize.

just a thought.

Dont get me wrong....I hope the "masters" do keep the PZI crap going - it has slowly been fueling the best undercurrent in the CN world that opens the eyes to many on what really needs to change around here.

We all now how many steps ahead this game needs to be played....and its time people stop sitting back letting a subset of Planet Bob dictate which direction it goes.

End the silenece! There are hundreds of people active on this board that just need to say enough and start speaking what they want without fear of retribution.

You cant silence a movement if enough speak.

You shouldnt have to be a member of VoX to be allowed to express a point of view honestly and express it in public on Planet Bob. I understand why the rest in large blocs cannot speak out - but thats there problem and they know how to fix it when the time is right for them.

For the rest - its time to put down the self censoring for fear of retribution.

Edited March 28, 2009 by Paradigm

[Ogaden]

I love the paradigm of thinking that answer comes from on so many levels!

When you step back and look at all those alliances that were ever allowed to launch attacks on NPO...oh wait.....

Notice how you used the word invade when describing all the alliances that needed to be squashed pre-emtively due to a colorful PR justification of "they will attack us long term"?

There are plenty of other options in the toolbox, only if people, GASP, are EVER WILLING to put to TEST the claims they like to make on being the superior group.

If your alliance is the top dog, if your block is the master.....why not let it stand on its own and face a force for the first time in recent CN history that is allowed to actually attack you. Just calling the reality for what it is......put down the pre-emption paradigm and watch a new game evolve.

Dont worry - I'm under no allusions - I know the answer why, as most of us do....the house of cards would all come down if such a test was ever allowed to materialize.

just a thought.

Dont get me wrong....I hope the "masters" do keep the PZI crap going - it has slowly been fueling the best undercurrent in the CN world that opens the eyes to many on what really needs to change around here.

We all now how many steps ahead this game needs to be played....and its time people stop sitting back letting a subset of Planet Bob dictate which direction it goes.

End the silenece! There are hundreds of people active on this board that just need to say enough and start speaking what they want without fear of retribution.

You cant silence a movement if enough speak.

Propose an alternative then. If there are so many tools in the toolbox better than PZI for dealing with enemies that don't want to deal with you, what are they?

[Paradigm]

Propose an alternative then. If there are so many tools in the toolbox better than PZI for dealing with enemies that don't want to deal with you, what are they?

Its easy. Takes a bit of work but it requires stopping being part of the problem.

Stop the stranglehold on CN politics.

Stop the cough *intelligence gathering* from soverign alliances that are used to massage/fabricate/spin the CB's used for pre-emption.

Allow an opponent to actually freaking launch an attack - then squash them....hey its worth trying ONCE at least.

Fight a war as an alliance for once! not a block - again it might be worth trying at least ONCE.

Imagine the REAL pride that could be developed internally for an alliance that actually faced a war and stood on its own.

Return to the original propaganda that a single nation poses no threat to a powerfull alliances. Clearly that was BS given the PZI world we live in now pushed down by blocks of tens of thousands of drones.

Stop the PZI copout and DEAL with the problems you create. If you cant deal with them then stop creating the problem in the first place.

If you as a member find yourself in an alliance or block that cant move away from these core problems - then you need to move away from that block or alliance, or just shrug and say *whatever* its safer staying here and continue dangling from the strings coming down from the ceiling.

Edited March 28, 2009 by Paradigm

[Ogaden]

Its easy. Takes a bit of work but it requires stopping being part of the problem.

Stop the stranglehold on CN politics.

Stop the cough *intelligence gathering* from soverign alliances that are used to massage/fabricate/spin the CB's used for pre-emption.

Allow an opponent to actually freaking launch an attack - then squash them....hey its worth trying ONCE at least.

Fight a war as an alliance for once! not a block - again it might be worth trying at least ONCE.

Imagine the REAL pride that could be developed internally for an alliance that actually faced a war and stood on its own.

Return to the original propaganda that a single nation poses no threat to a powerfull alliances. Clearly that was BS given the PZI world we live in now pushed down by blocks of tens of thousands of drones.

Stop the PZI copout and DEAL with the problems you create. If you cant deal with them then stop creating the problem in the first place.

If you as a member find yourself in an alliance or block that cant move away from these core problems - then you need to move away from that block or alliance, or just shrug and say *whatever* its safer staying here and continue dangling from the strings coming down from the ceiling.

Ok so we do all of those things, and get curbstomped by someone who doesn't feel like it and then replace us, what then?

[Paradigm]

Ok so we do all of those things, and get curbstomped by someone who doesn't feel like it and then replace us, what then?

Party?

Edit - Now for my own Pre-emption on rhetoric to come -lets be clear....If people want to spin my comments to just "oh another NPO hater", or stealth VOX member, or whatever this weeks BS is - just stop. I think I made my point in the posts above that this is not just directed at NPO. My words expressed are my views and have nothing to do with Vanguard. If it turns out I need to standalone without AA to speak on this forum once again then so be it. I just reached my threshold today where I'm done censoring my words.

My comments above are also larger than just the big blocks of the game. We need smaller alliances to be able to take action and have wars without calling in big brother within 34 seconds.

Edited March 28, 2009 by Paradigm

[Ogaden]

Party?

This is just the thing, you say we don't have to do all these things, that there are better ways, but those better ways don't survive close scrutiny.

Enforcing PZI is a lot of work, work better spent on other things. If there was an alternative, a viable alternative, we would pursue it.

[Paradigm]

This is just the thing, you say we don't have to do all these things, that there are better ways, but those better ways don't survive close scrutiny.

Enforcing PZI is a lot of work, work better spent on other things. If there was an alternative, a viable alternative, we would pursue it.

I would argure that they just dont survive scrutiny when looking at it from the point of view of those at the hegemonic top.

I would like to thank you James for discussing these things without status quo personal attacks - I enjoyed the exchange.

Edited March 28, 2009 by Paradigm

[RobertFitzy]

This is just the thing, you say we don't have to do all these things, that there are better ways, but those better ways don't survive close scrutiny.

Enforcing PZI is a lot of work, work better spent on other things. If there was an alternative, a viable alternative, we would pursue it.

for one its alienating you, things people do in the past rarely gets praise in future times, its now the future and if people keep seeing barbaric actions coming from you they will (and are) sneak up on you and USE it to take you out weather they really care about it or not. You guys seem to be the only ones not noticing your own avoidable demise, continuing to whistle past the graveyard yard with your same old way's. Your ironclads no longer compete with battleships, it may be time for an upgrade.

You NPO where the pioneers of new though in the past, a good number of things unique to you that gave you the edge everyone now uses and is advancing past, you would probably be able to find a viable alternative if you have kept that mindset.

[Ogaden]

I would argure that they just dont survive scrutiny when looking at it from the point of view of those at the hegemonic top.

That's just it though, that is where our point of view is based. If you want to convince us to abandon PZI as a tool, then your arguments have to be able to convince us based on our point of view. We in the NPO all have a responsibility to our friends, our members and our allies, and what you propose is irresponsible and puts our members, our friends and our allies all at risk.

[Paradigm]

That's just it though, that is where our point of view is based. If you want to convince us to abandon PZI as a tool, then your arguments have to be able to convince us based on our point of view. We in the NPO all have a responsibility to our friends, our members and our allies, and what you propose is irresponsible and puts our members, our friends and our allies all at risk.

Dont get me wrong - I'm not saying it's a realistic route to take for NPO. For others in the larger blocks though some might still have an option to back away from the mistakes before they are just continued forever since these decisions will not change like you admit.

Also - do understand that my comments are not here to "convince the powers that be they need to change". The intended audience is very much not the powers that be.

[Asriel Belacqua]

There is a cycle of fear amongst the NPO, not necessarly fear in the normal sense, but a fear that if they give up this valuable tool they have used so long, they will not be able to maintain a good position in the game.

Let me add my two cents: If you base your actions on fear (See: Pre-emptive striking, PZI, etc.) you will find yourself eventually caught in a cycle of fear and will pre-emptively strike more often, people you "thought you could trust" (which you probably still could have if you weren't fearful so much), and you will result to using PZI more often out of fear that if you don't, you will be destroyed.

Though, in reality, here is what PZI and pre-emptive striking does to one and one's alliance: It gives them a war-cry. It gives them a battle-cry with which to garner more support internally for the war. It gives them more resolve, it gives them a reason to fight (Examples: Vox, FAN, etc. etc.). While many members of the alliance might leave, there is always that very visible number who fights and basically doesn't give up, because, well, you have given them a reason to do everything in their power to bring you down.

The cycle of fear works so long as the number of your allies stays greater than the number of permanent enemies you have created (due to resolve/war-cries/everything else), the problem with this is, as your allies get stronger and stronger, the cycle of fear will inevitably make you feel like you can trust them less (not always the case, but look at how many power-blocs have been destroyed due to internal conflicts after creating a peaceful hegemony), and then you will garner support against eachother and one side will destroy the other out of basic fear and put them on PZI lists if they think they can get away with it.

Do not think I say this like a warning to NPO or anyone, it's just a crazy old coot's look at history through the ages and my personal opinion on this, but hey, what do I know? I'm just some idiot on a computer somewhere.

[Paradigm]

There is a cycle of fear amongst the NPO, not necessarly fear in the normal sense, but a fear that if they give up this valuable tool they have used so long, they will not be able to maintain a good position in the game.

Let me add my two cents: If you base your actions on fear (See: Pre-emptive striking, PZI, etc.) you will find yourself eventually caught in a cycle of fear and will pre-emptively strike more often, people you "thought you could trust" (which you probably still could have if you weren't fearful so much), and you will result to using PZI more often out of fear that if you don't, you will be destroyed.

Though, in reality, here is what PZI and pre-emptive striking does to one and one's alliance: It gives them a war-cry. It gives them a battle-cry with which to garner more support internally for the war. It gives them more resolve, it gives them a reason to fight (Examples: Vox, FAN, etc. etc.). While many members of the alliance might leave, there is always that very visible number who fights and basically doesn't give up, because, well, you have given them a reason to do everything in their power to bring you down.

The cycle of fear works so long as the number of your allies stays greater than the number of permanent enemies you have created (due to resolve/war-cries/everything else), the problem with this is, as your allies get stronger and stronger, the cycle of fear will inevitably make you feel like you can trust them less (not always the case, but look at how many power-blocs have been destroyed due to internal conflicts after creating a peaceful hegemony), and then you will garner support against eachother and one side will destroy the other out of basic fear and put them on PZI lists if they think they can get away with it.

Do not think I say this like a warning to NPO or anyone, it's just a crazy old coot's look at history through the ages and my personal opinion on this, but hey, what do I know? I'm just some idiot on a computer somewhere.

Well - if thats the viewpoint of an "idiot on a computer somewhere" then we need a whole lot more idiots posting around here!

[Ogaden]

NPO isn't afraid of anything, even things they should be afraid of.

That's what will be our downfall eventually, hubris. We have a belief of our own invincibility that I, having done the math, know isn't as solid as we think it is.

Edited March 28, 2009 by James Dahl

[Paradigm]

NPO isn't afraid of anything, even things they should be afraid of.

That's what will be our downfall eventually, hubris.

So say we all?

Edited March 28, 2009 by Paradigm

[Asriel Belacqua]

If you are not afraid of anything, why not try finding new methods? Ones that may be riskier to your alliance's health, but have the chance of gaining more and greater allies? With risk comes great reward.

My point is, you say you fear nothing, yet earlier in this thread, you asked that someone ELSE bring you better methods, instead of looking for some yourself, showing that you had probably never even given it thought before.

Edited March 28, 2009 by Asriel Belacqua

[RobertFitzy]

double post

Edited March 28, 2009 by Gabriel Carver

[RobertFitzy]

NPO isn't afraid of anything, even things they should be afraid of.

That's what will be our downfall eventually, hubris.

No that's not whats always seen, when you go into overkill over some things sometimes small, it makes you guys look afraid not strong, I will say 3 examples.

1. Radio silence even when you feel certain people may be out to get you makes you look afraid,

2. Waring a small small allaince and making a large deal about it with allies after allies joining makes you look afraid, not strong.

3. Restricting your members to speak their mind (you guys are lenient at times on outside people but not your people,) shows fear not strength

Respect is a kind of fear+trust gained by having the power to protect and take away from people, you have to balance that, and combine reputation with it, or that respect people have in your turns into hate and an opportunity to successfully rebel while maybe even keeping you as close friend while in wait. Exerting your power with overkill, even through your allies military power is viewed as weak. If you people don't fear you or you don't fear them you only like each other or hate each other.

It is essential to change like I said earlier too, political bodies that don't change and evolve die; what do you think causes alliances that where once large to break apart for almost no reason even when they had a perfect system. Even with a system that was working out it did not change. its a human instinct to seek change. Alliances have to do that internal and externally to a reasonable degree at times. No internal change will put off members, no external change will put off other alliances and be used to paint you as an old dog that can't learn new tricks by your enemies that will convince people they are the force of change.

[Ogaden]

Gabriel Carver,

Were you ever a member of the NPO?

[RobertFitzy]

Gabriel Carver,

Were you ever a member of the NPO?

I was for a time, it was enjoyable

[Ogaden]

I was for a time, it was enjoyable

What made you leave?

Edited March 28, 2009 by James Dahl

[Paradigm]

What made you leave?

I was also a member for GWII and enjoyed my time greatly.

I left after watching high level longtime NPO members leave post war, watching each of the well written resignation threads being posted for 17 seconds and then being whisked off to backroom archives so the general membership werent aware of discontent within the hallowed halls. It was interesting to watch for a few weeks but got a bit old watching those with conviction, those with a long history within the alliance, those names who I just assumed were A-Ok with carrying on the party line, actively standing up and calling things for what they were, who were then slowly and methodicly subjected to being silenced and tossed aside with varying levels of traitorous accusations, tossed around both in public and IRC arenas of the planet bob network to cover the tracks and write new realities that were more inline with the inner cabals wishes. That was fun to write - guess we all have our biases

These arent uncommon sequences of events throughout many alliances within this game over the last few years. Sometimes it creates a healthy alliance in the end...sometimes it doesnt. I'm willing to put my money on the traits that are going to make up the alliances that WILL end up standing up to the test of time that is Planet Bob. Guess we all have differn't views on what will make it in the end.

Edited March 28, 2009 by Paradigm

[RobertFitzy]

What made you leave?

Besides RL stuff that made me leave CN for a month, I still could never buy that the destruction of the BDC was really over a spy and not an attempt to get myworld out of the picture in the NpO. I wanted for once to see the other side and that's why I joined. I loved the NPO, it was a perfect system in my eyes but that BDC thing still bugged me (and after the experiences I felt it was confirmed). I started to feel we lied to our selves, there was constant fear of almost everything, fear of mods, fear of allies being out to get us, fear of spies, fear of member thinking differently. There was joking about destroying allies that was heavier then just joking I saw at times. We feared ideas, strong brave forces don't fear criticism and counter theories to what they believe.

[Ogaden]

Ah yes, August '07.

I think those days were probably one of the most important events in CN, but interestingly enough one of the least talked about as well. I was not around yet, but having read various accounts of those days, it makes the current state of affairs easier to understand.

Hopefully there can be some closure for those involved.

Edited March 29, 2009 by James Dahl