Probationary Zero Infrastructure (PrZI)

[SoxNation]

P-ZI = Fail

In any form, no matter what someone did, unless it was OOC, and even then it should be up to Mod team to take action against them.

Such actions are directly aimed at forcing players to stop playing this game and destroy whole communities.

Those who order other players to be P-ZI should be banned from this game imo.

this...

if its that bad for the game, the Mods should be taking care of the player not the community.

CN has stagnated and we want to drive away more players, Kevin are you hearing this, why do you allow players to drive away your revenue source.

[Archon]

Just keep with a one-time ZI and be done with it.

Any spy who is able to get any substantial information probably has enough invested in the game and their nation that a ZI will hurt, and hurt badly. Anything "worse" than spying really should be handled by the moderation team due to its purely OOC nature.

[VIdiot the Great]

While I appreciate the thoughtfulness of the OP, I have to wonder the following:

Don't we have enough administrative BS in CN?

Player applies, and lo and behold, he or she is on some form of ZI list.

"Do you know who has you on their list?"

Reroll: 'Not sure.'

"Why are you on the list?"

Reroll: 'Not sure.'

And then you have to go around to other alliances, and figure out who done who wrong.

Now we also get to ask:

"Are you on Probation?"

Reroll: "Not sure."

It gets to a point where it's such an administrative hassle to even accept these players.

Frankly, I find PZI and EZI to be stupid and a waste of time. I know the one-upmanship around here is a great source of pride, but a ZI or forced reroll is severe enough in a game (unless as posted above there's OOC stuff attached).

Plus I'm not getting involved with interviewing probation officers, making sure the probationer checked in, and has passed all his piss tests.

ZI is plenty harsh. I leave that as the end of the road.

[Commisar Gaunt]

This is a great idea! I can't wait to be placed on one of these new lists!

[twodivine]

Just let it be a one time shot to ZI, no need for extra paper pushing between alliances. In the end if the person repeats the offense as a member of another alliance they usually get kicked out anyways and the offended alliance goes back to work on the nation.

If anything people could go with a set time frame of attacks vs going straight for ZI on some weak reason people are being ZI'd for.

What's wrong this saying if you are

under 100 days old then you get attacked 1 or 2 wks

101 to 200/300 days for 2 to 3 wks

201/301 to 500+ days 4wks

Because for some people with extremely high levels of infrastructure sending them to ZI for the most trivial thing especially when you know they really don't deserve to be ZI'd might as well take them out of the game for quite some time. As we all know that doesn't stop anyone from causing problems for anyone. If something is going to stop the offender, he has to want to stop. Why give yourself more work than is need to keep up with the offender is doing in CN. If we all leave each other be then there's no reason for some one looking over the shoulder of the old offender to see if they get out of line.

[Rebel Virginia]

-snip-

I haven't read any of the replies to this yet, but here's my two cents. This is kind of redundant. You've been put on PZI, you're free to go. If you do something that warrants being putting back on PZI, it'll happen. I don't see the point of this other than to add additionally bureaucracy.

[Bilzey Land]

Personally, I am against all ZI except normal ZI, EZI and PZI just cause people to run from the game.

[Hourai]

Waste of time, in my opinion. If people are going to be problematic and commit crimes, then they get ZIed. If they intend to re-offend, then they will. They will be dealt with every time it happens without fail. People who seriously wish to have a new start would prefer to just re-roll rather than accept such a proposal that would impair their ability to play the game normally indefinitely just because they might re-offend. This problem always solves itself, so introducing things that would complicate it would be, as I noted earlier, a waste of time. I appreciate the thought and effort you put into it, but I just don't see this one working. Always good to have people thinking of change, though!

[Deuterium Dawn]

It seems like it just adds another pointless layer. Once an issue has been resolved it should be resolved without following a player around.

[CyborgBelial]

Against it. Against perma-ZI and whatnot, it ruins the game. I don't believe in EZI either, it is redundant. I just believe someone should be rolled once and that's the end. Only the most heinous acts should be EZI such as /b/ombing, DDoS, etc. Probation in this sense is illogical in my opinion, once someone is rolled let them continue on. I don't believe in this list because it will add too much nonsense.

I pretty much agree with this. And it allows a lot of chance for the alliance with the PrZI list to simply attack nations for any reason. All they would have to do is make up a reason and roll em again.

[jackyseto123]

Quite the more sophisticated plan, I hope the ZIee has a choice or say in this.

[Lyria]

oh god you are so merciful

you're still forcing individual nations to live under your whim with threat of saying they violated their 'probation' and promptly ZIing them again. in effect, this is ZI whenever convenient.

[Facade]

Zero Infrastructure is probably the most fail concept invented in cybernations.

Nobody except admin should control who can/cannot play the game.

[Ragashingo]

I think the 'papers' part might be a bit formal, given some thought. However, seriously, if you don't like what's in the bag, come up with something better. If the model you're suggesting were so great..wouldn't it be the dominant one?

The better option already exists, it just isn't used. Normal Ole ZI allows alliances to exercise their right to strike back against those who have wronged them, but it is also far less likely to drive a player away from the community and it doesn't infringe on the sovereignty of every alliance that might have found the P/E/Whatever ZIed player useful by forcing them to ignore that player until some other group allows him back into the community months or years later.

The reason Normal ZI isn't the dominant type of ZI is because responsible use of power has been mostly banished from this game. Simple as that.

And how do you propose leaders banish the emotion in them that makes them wary about someone who's wronged them before?

I don't. Why would I do something as stupid as that? You should be wary of threats to your nation or your alliance. It's all part of the fun. I just don't think you should be so wary that you hold entire groups of people at ZI, or in a viceroyship, or in any of these other perpetual surrender terms we see floating around today.

[ironchef]

oh god you are so merciful

you're still forcing individual nations to live under your whim with threat of saying they violated their 'probation' and promptly ZIing them again. in effect, this is ZI whenever convenient.

Like I have said before in this thread. There are some members of PB that do live that way. In peace mode because they are on Pzi or Ezi. This is an alternative to that. They can grow their nation, join an alliance, and as long as they do not commit the crimes they did in the past they have nothing to worry about. I know if I was on a Pzi or Ezi list and was given the opportunity to be on probation I would take it.

Due to alliance sovereignty this would be left up to the alliance that hold the PoP and the alliance he joins to work that out before they sign off on it. Like with Ezi and Pzi I don’t feel it’s the right of others to tell an alliance what they can put someone on a list for or not. For some a nuke attack will get you on a Ezi list for others it wouldn’t.

This is just an idea. Another option to keeping people on perma ZI. If an alliance is so corrupt they would use this as a reason to keep attacking someone over and over this is not something they would be interested in using in the first place.

[New Frontier]

PZI=EZI=PrZI

Anything other than a single ZI is ridiculous.

[Virillus]

Like I have said before in this thread. There are some members of PB that do live that way. In peace mode because they are on Pzi or Ezi. This is an alternative to that.

I can think of another easy alternative.

[Voodoo Nova]

Like I have said before in this thread. There are some members of PB that do live that way. In peace mode because they are on Pzi or Ezi. This is an alternative to that.

Ironchef, I know your intelligent enough to know the real alternative, and to know that the real alternative is something that would better this game.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Voodoo Nova

[jer]

Like I have said before in this thread. There are some members of PB that do live that way. In peace mode because they are on Pzi or Ezi. This is an alternative to that. They can grow their nation, join an alliance, and as long as they do not commit the crimes they did in the past they have nothing to worry about. I know if I was on a Pzi or Ezi list and was given the opportunity to be on probation I would take it.

So what is the point in the papers? If you're letting people go and allowing them to re-build, that is surely a natural end to the ZI. If the player does commit the crimes they did in the past again then just ZI them again. I do not see the need for any agreements or involvement with the future alliances of the player which has been ZI'd.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Aimee Mann

[Demonic]

Probationary Zero Infrastructure,

Hello to all of you. I would like to thank you in advance for your opinion of this idea I have came up with. Agreement or opposition all opinions are welcomed and I look forward to seeing what the members of Planet Bob have to say.

This idea and new way of thinking is based on what I have seen in CN in the over 800 days I have been here. The old days of the Perma ZI and this more recent Eternal ZI are in my opinion well over used and it’s time for a change.

Yes some will say I have been a strong advocate of the 2 forms of ZI, but things change and so do people, well some do. This being said I would like to propose a new way of thinking, a new mind set if you will about how to handle the criminals of your alliance and CN as a whole.

Probationary Zero Infrastructure will enact a state in which a member of the community that has committed a crime will be taken to Zero Infrastructure. After that has been done they will be put on lifelong probation or until released by the alliance. They will have to report any alliance change to the alliance that hold the Papers of Probation or PoP for short. That alliance will present the offenders new alliance with the list of crimes, and make it known their new member is on the PrZI list. The new alliance will have to sign off stating that they understand this new member is open to attacks if they violate their probation.

Now for what this all means. If you are on Probationary Zero Infrastructure and you commit a crime for which an alliance feels you should be ZI, you will be ZI. Your alliance will have to stand by and let it happen. There will be no military action taken by your alliance, there will be no aid from your alliance, you will go to ZI again.

My reasons for this change are as follows.

Nuke Rogue: Really this is not all that bad of a crime. So they have nuked you and your members. More casualties is not a bad thing. And to be honest these people almost always do this as a going away gift as they leave CN for good.

Spy attacks on your alliance forums: This is a crime of the worst sort. However the old Pzi and Ezi do not stop this type of attacks. As seen with Vox members they are happy to sit in peace mode and spy away. They can’t be punished for what they are doing because by keeping them in peace mode you can’t attack them for misbehaving over and over again. And for them peace mode is not a punishment it’s a joke.

OOC attacks: This is as low as anyone can ever get. But again these people can keep up the OOC attacks from Pzi or Ezi. Hell some of them don’t even need a nation to do it. And again for them the ZI list is a joke.

I say let them all go and be on Probation. Let them grow their nations. This way if they do commit a crime again or continue to commit crimes, they can be attacked for it and will not get the sympathy they do now from some of the CN community.

So in conclusion I think this would be something fresh and new and bring a different dynamic to the game. If you feel this is something you and your alliance would like to participate in come by the the irc room #PrZI and discuss it and how it can benefit not only you but the entire cybernations community.

Example:

The nation of Micro Technology has commited the crime of nuclear attacks against fellow nations of his old alliance the Western Empire. Western Empire has placed this member on Probationary Zero Infrastructure, He is attacked until Zero Infrastructure, After the wars are declared over he is released and allowed to grow his nation. The nation of Micro Technology wishes to join Nueva Vida, However NV does not wish to sign the Papers of Probation so Western Empire cannot allow the nation to join. Micro Technology goes to join Genesis and they agree to sign the Papers of Probation and Micro Technology is allowed to finally live out his life in an alliance. If he would happen to commit a crime against Western Empire such as an attack on one of their nations or spying etc... He would then be subject to ZI again.

great idea man, would be kinda hard to keep track in some cases but would make the game more interesting.

[WarriorConcept]

I pretty much agree with the majority here, and am completely against the idea for all the reasons stated so far that I don't feel like restating.

[delendum]

With all due respect to those of you who are trying to emphasize "fairness" by challenging practices such as EZI, you fail to understand that the world is not yours to police, and that there is no global legislation governing Bob. Every alliance is entitled by its very sovereignty to establish its own practices and enforce them as they see fit. There may exist a vague consensus, but that is only the sum of more alliances reaching the same conclusions.

This renders your views irrelevant, and is the reason why such practices are able to exist unaltered in spite of the countless threads advocating their demise or proposing change.

We all understand this with regards to tech raiding, what makes EZI so special that it requires countless debate? If a member of an alliance gets tech raided, the alliance is left with the choice of action. If an alliance engages in reckless tech raiding, it's faced with the eventual consequences. If one of your members is found to be a re-roll on such a list, you are left with a choice.

Don't think it's fair? Then by all means, fight to defend your member either diplomatically, or ultimately by military force. In the end, you will find you're fighting against said alliance's policy of EZI, much in the same way an alliance would get rolled for its absurd tech raiding policy. If you lack the guts to back your view on this matter with concrete actions, you are just wasting your and our time for nothing with futile advocation and debate.

PZI or plain old ZI, what's wrong with them? Childish, yes, but this is a game, and a game has to have losers. Think it's a grave injustice? Fight against it. Nobody does, because in the end they don't care enough. Why the fuss then?

You will never obtain anything unless you are ready to back up your views with action.

In RL, the Geneva conventions are repeatedly broken by some of the very same entities that established them, yet nobody does anything about it. Tell me then, what good do they bring to the people who continue to die regardless of their existence?

[hizzy]

Like I have said before in this thread. There are some members of PB that do live that way. In peace mode because they are on Pzi or Ezi. This is an alternative to that. They can grow their nation, join an alliance, and as long as they do not commit the crimes they did in the past they have nothing to worry about.

You know what else would work? Pretty much exactly what you said but without the paper work and the labels.

Zi the guy, let him go, and if they screw up again then you ZI them again.

[cookavich]

You know what else would work? Pretty much exactly what you said but without the paper work and the labels.

Zi the guy, let him go, and if they screw up again then you ZI them again.

What a novel concept.

[Jake Erics]

This wouldn't really change anything, just a (very transparent) way to try to lose the negative stigma of ZI/PZI/EZI/etc.

Just keep killing the game and quit trying to hide it with e-lawyering. PoP? Give me a break.