Return of Swampy's Memoirs

[Lord Swampy]

A little harsh Swampy....many members of \m/ were, and are great players in this game. Categorizing them as a whole is not fair. Much of the leadership were what you describe, and the whole alliance paid the crime.

In some ways many of the Legion members were categorized the same way because of our leadership.

In some ways some great Legion members, as noted before, were persecuted for being loyal and war worthy members.

Regardless, I'll never forget growing up in the cohorts of the Legion fighting rogues under some great warriors like Ref, Van, Gunner, and so many others I can't even recite them.

Letting our allies take the hit on their own in GWII was the decisive blow IMHO. Had we entered, it very well could be a different game today. Diablo was still with NAAC...and at that point were the FAN of their ERA.

Many Legion members, especially during my entrance to this game were fierce warriors. It just was the apex of the Legion. Unfortunately we were infested by new members, spies, and a leadership unwilling to stand up for what the standard member believed in. Hell, waiting to hit in GWIII while GATO was being pummeled in itself was a lame tactic. Then continuously putting off the attack while spies infested the secret war rooms was laughable at best...although it was already lost at that point.

Where I am reminds me much of my early Legion days, and I am happy again for once in a LONG time.

Now we just need a good ole bar brawl (remember that one?) cause TOP doesn't get many rogues hitting us. XD

My opinions of \m/ are highly colored by my interactions with their leadership while I led the Legion, but beyond that I witnessed many members, not just leaders, reveling in the tech raiding bullying mob mentality. There were good people in \m/, yes, and it pained me to see friends of mine, like Virillus, there. It confused and disappointed me to see people I respected, had been allies with in the Legion, join \m/ when \m/ was party to awful things like extortion and harboring well-known spies, not to mention helping noWedge to his ill-gotten gains from the Legion. And I can't forget any of that. That's a lot of why I loathed \m/, reveled in assisting in their destruction, and celebrate their absence daily. Are there other perspectives on \m/? I'm sure they must be. And I don't doubt that some of them are probably legitimate and justified. But they aren't my view; this is. And I'm quite comfortable with my institutional hatred for that alliance.

[Bob Sanders]

The Legion didn't lose that war. Just because some didn't fight well doesn't mean the Legion lost the war. I fought 3 \m/ nation by myself and beat the crap out of them. And they were all bigger than me.

Nuclear war I assume?

This is not an acurate descripition of how that war ended. But I will leave that for Lord Swampy to discuss in his next issue. I will just say I was upset that the Legion-Valahlla war ended while I was still fighting \m/ nations. At the time I really wanted to attack Valahalla nations.

Well, the white peace when threatened with nukes does cast some doubt. Technically you are right, Legion did win the war.

I'm a Paradoxian now and I Valhalla.

TOP

I can't argue with that. The real problem really began with not having warchests. I had a warchest my \m/ opponents didn't and that's all that really mattered.

Not having warchests is always a problem. I had 20 million or so and the reason I was able to survive is because my opponents were anarchied and I was collecting every day.

[Simon De Montfort]

Nuclear war I assume?

Yes. Nukes were flying back and forth. But I had the warchest and could replace my air force, they could not. So I could launch additional attacks. Also they had trouble replacing ground troops after a while. One turtled, another made fewer attacks over time but one kept up despite not having an air force.

[MisterShadow]

Alright lets point out some things.

Yes the opponents I did fight were honorable. One barely did anything, one asked if I could peace him out so he could go nuclear against \m/, and one was chairman hal. It was not like \m/ was completely curbstomped. We had Legion, TAB, UPN, CON and a few others. Legion and \m/ were fairly close in NS so it wasnt like it was a 3:1 war, and you probably want to go after the biggest alliance. \m/ didnt have much of a counter attack I think the most we got in 1 day was 17 (none were at me), I mean typically you want to try and attack an MoD to distract them a bit from their duties, but I was never in a defensive war. Chairman Hal sucked up 9mil in aid which I admit I gave some more to him but it certainly cost him.

The reasons why Legion has a hatred for \m/:

1. WC trying to blackmail us for tech (he later said it was a joke)

2. \m/ accepting a refugee and spy from the Legion (Colt)

3. For me personally one member making fun of Cricket (reason I am in this game) and his friend that died.

4. Dove War

Reasons why Legion ended up winning:

1. Introduction of war chests

2. The assumption that Legion was still a paper tiger alliance

3. Better military organization

4. Personal Vendetta (yes it existed and still does, number 2 above was a huge reason)

5. Leadership being more active

6. Ceasefire (helped to a degree)

7. Numbers

On Valhalla:

1. Orginally it was a surrender, but since it wasnt signed by nW no good

2. NPO meeting changed it

3. Valhalla was doing damage no doubt, but it wasnt a clear beat down and we were working on a return plan.

4. Legion at large was a completely different dynamic than \m/ we very much disliked tech raiding as we wanted both casual and full time players alike. Whereas tech raiding does not benefit the casual as much.

5. I personally dont believe in disbandment or harsh surrender terms. 1. It creates a ton of animosity and 2. Breaks apart friendships (which is the best part of this game)

4. I personally fought a good friend from Valhalla and from the legion govt at the time I probably had the best relationship with nW.

Others:

1. As noted I was probably the most anti nuclear person in history of MoDs (even after I got nuked I didnt fire one back)

2. Legion was not for disbandment (at least I wasnt) that was a decision that was made by the coalition (most vocal about it iirc was ES)

[Hymenbreach]

Any coward can try to restart some old alliance, grovel and get a NAP with former bitter enemies and the powers that be, and survive. But \m/ has left a mark, and a lot of people still get up in arms whenever its name is mentioned. Only a few other alliances have that honour. If an alliance like the NPO ever goes down, which I doubt, the same will happen to it. But who will be concerned about what happens to the Legions and GATOs of this world?

Whoah. And there was me being all nice and concilliatory.

Legion didn't beg for survival. It chose to survive. My fellow Triumvirs were not going to allow The Legion to die because of the actions of its unwise (and constantly politically outmanoevred) leadership, nor were we prepared to watch the destruction of smaller Legionnaires for the crimes of their 'betters'. Because we understood that an alliance is responsible for its leaders, we surrendered because those leaders were wrong. How is that dishonourable? If the NPO/Valhalla had offered untenable (or no) terms The Legion would be like FAN or \m/ is now, a ghost of a memory of an idea, no doubt some of us spitting words for bullets.

We also put aside old hatreds. They held us and, to a lesser extent, our former enemies back.

tl/dr. No regrets. To mangle a Catch 22 quote: You think it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees. We thought it better to live on our feet than die on our knees.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Hymenbreach

[Matthijs]

3. For me personally one member making fun of Cricket (reason I am in this game) and his friend that died.

Umm, what? I don't think it's a very good idea to bring that one up. That little incident wasn't exactly the most glorious moment. Or is this about some later moment, when this member said something untoward, something that was more than just a criticism of cricket's actions?

Hymen: I didn't specifically refer to the Legion in what I said, it's more a general statement. It's not so much that the Legion "grovelled", they just got rid of their incompetent leadership and swallowed harsh terms. But it's clear to me that CN is full of alliances who were once hell-bent on ending teh evil NPO's dominance, but are now perfectly fine with it because the relations between alliances are now such that starting a major global war is rarely in anyone's interests. It used to be that most major wars had heroes and villains to identify with, but now the politics of opportunism rule the day.

Of course, you made the right decision to put aside old hatreds. After all, you need to ensure the best possible future for your members. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. It's just not to my completely subjective taste. What I liked in \m/ is that we did what we wanted, first with a lot of powerful backers, but also when that became less. \m/ didn't suddenly start scoffing at those horrible, evil techraiders as soon as the public opinion turned that way, nor write endless essays about how it's wrong to play CN "for the lulz". To paraphrase, people need someone like that so they can point their fingers and say: that's the bad guy.

If the NPO/Valhalla had offered untenable (or no) terms The Legion would be like FAN or \m/ is now, a ghost of a memory of an idea, no doubt some of us spitting words for bullets

Okay, I'm glad that's clear. Because I heard someone else suggest that \m/ were cowards for disbanding at the first sign of adversity.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Matthijs

[MisterShadow]

I am not sure of exactly what you had mentioned, all I remember was seeing a post making fun of the situation involving his friend. (Basically a mimic)

[Margrave]

Virillius was an idiot for throwing the alliance to the dogs. This does not make cowardice, only that we had a fool where great men had once tread.

Viril: You suck as an alliance leader, I can put it no more simply than that.

[Minimoi]

Aside from the drama going on here, thank you for taking the time to write this very interestings memoirs. I wasn't there at the time and it's interesting to see history through the eyes of someone who took part in it.

[Simon De Montfort]

I find it mildly humorous that this episode of Swampy's memiors have stirred up some much discussion on the Unjust War when the war wasn't in this episode. I wonder how much discussion there will be when he actually talks about the Legion's role in the Unjust War.

[Monster]

Post the next one already.

[Arcadian Empire]

I say, "You can't rush art..."

[Monster]

Waiting a month sucked.

[Haflinger]

I heard someone else suggest that \m/ were cowards for disbanding at the first sign of adversity.

I wouldn't say cowards. But the parallels between \m/ and Legion are interesting. Both alliances were hung out to dry by their leadership in a crisis; \m/ in UJW and Legion in Purplegate were both ordered to disband by high government.

The difference with Legion was some of them refused to disband, and chose instead to negotiate with their enemies. To my knowledge, what Hymen and the others did during Purplegate is unprecedented before or since in Planet Bob history.

As for the war effort against \m/; I think some credit ought to be given to UPN, who struck \m/ 24 hours before Legion did and IIRC anarchied something like 70-80% of their targets during the quad. When Legion arrived, they faced a significantly weakened \m/ based on what the people in the early Ragnarok told me.

[MisterShadow]

I wouldnt necessarily say that all were hung out to dry. Even though I was not leadership at the time, I offered to assist anyone find a new home. I also stayed on the forum for a day or 2 to help clean things up. Since a war had not been started it was decided to disband before our membership could be killed off. I was a member of the advisory council and even though I had worked with Swampy in the previous term as the MoD. I had absolutely no knowledge of this plot and so I felt very betrayed as well and didnt want people to suffer so I gave my opinion to disband.

[Haflinger]

I wouldnt necessarily say that all were hung out to dry. Even though I was not leadership at the time, I offered to assist anyone find a new home. I also stayed on the forum for a day or 2 to help clean things up. Since a war had not been started it was decided to disband before our membership could be killed off. I was a member of the advisory council and even though I had worked with Swampy in the previous term as the MoD. I had absolutely no knowledge of this plot and so I felt very betrayed as well and didnt want people to suffer so I gave my opinion to disband.

Well, you weren't leadership, so your opinion didn't matter much.

But yeah. I know some people helped Legionnaires who were leaving find new homes. (Heck, I was one of those people. No, none of them came to Invicta, but that didn't mean I was going to just abandon them to the vagaries of fate. This was Purple with noWedge.)

I do know what the rationale behind the decision was. Obviously I strongly disagree with it, but that's probably a discussion for the final chapter in this little saga.

[Hymenbreach]

I wouldnt necessarily say that all were hung out to dry. Even though I was not leadership at the time, I offered to assist anyone find a new home. I also stayed on the forum for a day or 2 to help clean things up. Since a war had not been started it was decided to disband before our membership could be killed off. I was a member of the advisory council and even though I had worked with Swampy in the previous term as the MoD. I had absolutely no knowledge of this plot and so I felt very betrayed as well and didnt want people to suffer so I gave my opinion to disband.

I respectfully disagree. But is an error born from the flaw of optimism which is the mother of despair, so I bear you no particular ill will and thank you for your efforts to resettle those who chose to leave. However, the idea that simply disbanding and jumping over the side would have saved us all, although not tested, seems to me unlikely.

Still, we should speak more on this in the next chapter.

[pezstar]

I respectfully disagree. But is an error born from the flaw of optimism which is the mother of despair, so I bear you no particular ill will and thank you for your efforts to resettle those who chose to leave. However, the idea that simply disbanding and jumping over the side would have saved us all, although not tested, seems to me unlikely.

Still, we should speak more on this in the next chapter.

While no one can say for sure what would have happened had you folks not reformed, I can tell you with 100% confidence that we did what we truly felt was best. I'm sure that there will be plenty to talk about when that part of Swampy's story surfaces.

[MisterShadow]

I respectfully disagree. But is an error born from the flaw of optimism which is the mother of despair, so I bear you no particular ill will and thank you for your efforts to resettle those who chose to leave. However, the idea that simply disbanding and jumping over the side would have saved us all, although not tested, seems to me unlikely.

Still, we should speak more on this in the next chapter.

Disbanding generally does "save" the general populace of an alliance. \m/ was no longer targeted after disbandment except those that nuked. Perhaps if I knew history a little better I could argue about NAAC and VE.