Maelstrom Vortex Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) ooc: Actually, thanks to the ruling handed down by Sargun, unless Tahoe or someone else could give a scientific method by which they could refute my claims on a stealth missile.. and actually site sources to prove it.. my missiles were not detected except on re-entry. This means no clue would have been had at all about the source of the missiles. Well.. this was a good test bed, now that folks know how the missiles work, they will know how to properly respond in the future. I'm going to note this thread as an "ooc: study/example of how fafnir's work" in my fact book section. Without meta gaming, Mudd has no idea who to counter-attack against. Which is a very good reason for me to start making many of these. Mind you, I'm not even going to pretend that a mass launch of over 100 warheads is undetectable, there's a certain point it starts getting ridiculous that I won't exceed. Also, this thread is totally Nerfed as a direct response to the Tahoe/Lavo nuclear strike incident which the mods also nerfed and ruled responses to such nerfed. *Adds 50 unused missiles back to stockpile* Edited February 20, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comrade nikonov Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 *Laughs*Here is someone who talks who provoked unneeded aggression against a rather peaceful state. A Rogue General is completely responsible for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 OOC: you know, we could continue this as a non-canon thread, if y'all like...it should be interesting, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykep Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 A Rogue General is completely responsible for this. So you say. We back our awesome australian allies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Keshav IV Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 *Laughs* Your condemning one of the most stable and trustworthy government in the world when you can't handle your own generals? I condemn you for not seeing your people are unhappy with your rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 OOC: So I take it we are continuing this as a non-canon thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 ooc: I'd prefer not to at this point, the whole nuclear thing has gone way to controversial, but I'll leave it up to Mudd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 ooc: I'd prefer not to at this point, the whole nuclear thing has gone way to controversial, but I'll leave it up to Mudd. OOC: OK... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manetheren Posted February 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Classified Seven thousand Armtha SS elite soldiers and three batallions of Fiannoglach Special Forces have boarded transports for the UFE. Thirteen TAC-22 and four TAC-120 squadrons have deployed to southern UFE to begin strikes against Dragonisian India. -General Imrallan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 ooc: Mudd. I'm not even sure where the world is at right now given the Mod's reaction to Lavo and the nukes and such. I'm not even sure my strikes have even occurred. You want to continue this non-canon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manetheren Posted February 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 OOC: The mods ruled that Lavo's strikes (along with all the counterstrikes) did occur and thus so did your strikes. So yes, this can continue...as canon. Unless you wish to surrender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 (edited) ooc: There's still just one problem. The Moderators ruled the missiles I used were not able to be tracked or detected at launch based on the information I provided them, the same information is also now available in my fact book about the missiles and various methods used on them to ensure their non-detection capability. That said, you'd not know where the hits came from unless you had spies in my territory and I've not seen them rp'd being here. It's all 2008 or less technology and I once had that level of technology briefly, which was when I made these weapons. Edited February 24, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeVentNoir Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 (edited) ooc: There's still just one problem. The Moderators ruled the missiles I used were not able to be tracked based on the information I provided them, the same information is also now available in my fact book about the missiles and various methods used on them to ensure their non-detection capability. OOC: Its BS. You have no good links which say anything about missiles undetectable to IR during the boost phase, Also, how much does all that extra stuff weigh, you can only have about 1000kg of non fuel and body in a ICBM... So warhead, guidance, and all countermeasures must add up to less than that. Lets count your systems, so the plasma stealth generator, the hundreds of KG of liquid nitrogen needed for the plume cooling.... its seems thats just a bit to heavy to have a warhead on it too Edited February 24, 2009 by LeVentNoir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 (edited) OOC: Its BS. You have no good links which say anything about missiles undetectable to IR during the boost phase, (also, how much does all that extra stuff weigh, you can only have about 1000kg of non fuel and body in a ICBM... So warhead, guidance, and all countermeasures must add up to less than that) ooc: Yes I do, you need to read up on the BHO systems I have mentioned which links to a .PDF on the Black Hole Ocarina and the Aerogels used as IR and Radar dampeners in conjunction with Radar Absorbent Materials and paints on the surface skin of the missiles. The BHO system reduces infrared signatures by over 90%. The Aerogels are even better at alleviating friction related heating and IR signatures. Likewise for the RAM. If your rebuttal weren't extremely politically motivated LVN and based more on an actual argument, I'd be more prone to listen, but you just say "You can't do that." and then don't say why. Direct link to my data on the Fafnirs and the systems they use if you have questions. Edited February 24, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manetheren Posted February 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 OOC: Look, there is no way you can make IR stealth, visual stealth and radar stealth. It isn't possible. That has been resoundly proven by every real site cited. I'm not going to do so again. Second, I have 100% spy odds against you. You can't hide from somebody who has a 100% chance to spy on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowsage Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 OOC: You can if you haven't RP'd putting spies in his nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 ooc: Except you have not RP'd a spying mission against me in the past. Additionally, I have never claimed visual stealth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manetheren Posted February 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 (edited) OOC: The point is, I have 100% chance to spy therefore I have 100% chance to discover the location of an attack against me. Please, stop whining OOC, you are being invaded. Have a nice day. PS: last OOC post in this thread Edited February 24, 2009 by Emperor Mudd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 (edited) ooc: Reposting the same failed argument doesn't make it any better. Edited February 24, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowsage Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 OOC: Check the damned precedents. Just because you have 100% odds doesn't mean you have guaranteed success. Try RPing for a change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manetheren Posted February 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Classified The First Assault Division has arrived at their staging point in Vietnam. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Another two hundred missiles launched out of Hawaii towards targets in Dragonisian India, targetting radar, anti-aicraft batteries, large military formations and police stations. 197 missiles landed, the three failures due to mechanical reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 (edited) ooc: This thread is being ignored henceforth by Dragonisia as it is in direct violation of a moderator ruling on the subject and therefore meta-gaming by the aggressor who has not even role-played out any spying attempt against Dragonisia or had any reason to ICly spy on Dragonisia. And again, reiterated, if you want to see what my missiles are based on you just have to take the time to read the studies I've linked in my fact book under the technology section under the fafnir listing. Edited February 24, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEDCJT Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 ooc: This thread is being ignored henceforth by Dragonisia as it is in direct violation of a moderator ruling on the subject and therefore meta-gaming by the aggressor who has not even role-played out any spying attempt against Dragonisia or had any reason to ICly spy on Dragonisia. OOC: Hm, Sargun is a GM... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeVentNoir Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 ooc: Yes I do, you need to read up on the BHO systems I have mentioned which links to a .PDF on the Black Hole Ocarina and the Aerogels used as IR and Radar dampeners in conjunction with Radar Absorbent Materials and paints on the surface skin of the missiles.The BHO system reduces infrared signatures by over 90%. The Aerogels are even better at alleviating friction related heating and IR signatures. Likewise for the RAM. If your rebuttal weren't extremely politically motivated LVN and based more on an actual argument, I'd be more prone to listen, but you just say "You can't do that." and then don't say why. Direct link to my data on the Fafnirs and the systems they use if you have questions. OOC: Please note It is important to note that the current techniques for reducing the signature for infrared and radar are generally mutually exclusive. In many cases, attempts to reduce the signature in one area of concern actually increases the signature in the other. Its from the link you provided. This one. Second, having read all the links, I admit 1: The missile would be at the least semi stealthy for radar. 2: The nitrogen injection might work if you had enough being injected fast enough 3: You have no links to a credible way for reducing / eliminating surface generated heat. So, our problem is with point three. Your links reference aircraft, all traveling at speeds at which surface heating from air friction is negligible (<1km/s). Now, you missile is traveling much faster (>3km/s upto 7km/s), so the skin itself gets hot, and so does the air surrounding the missile tip. Now, insulators will only stop the heat from conducting into the body of the missile, they will not cool down the skin or the air you heated up. Now, in IRC we worked out you need an average speed of 5.5km/s so it will heat up, and so we can safely say, no, this missile has no IR stealth in the atomosphere Also, doesn't moving fast in sub orbital space produce a plasma sheath, one of the natural plasmas which reflect radar well? Sputnik got it, and that was 300km lower than your missile goes, and that made a beautiful radar signal, so in the orbial phase, you lose RF stealth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 (edited) ooc: After a long IRC conversation about the physics of ICBMS.. I've gone ahead and decided to totally NERF the Fafnirs out of existence.. which means this RP didn't occur, because I didn't in fact have truly stealthy missiles. I will be keeping them as the russian equivalents which are merely re-entry path altering and which may still be useful in the future and still will be making many of them for various payload types. This RP, since it is based on that weapons platform is also nerfed as my firing of the nonexistent Fafnirs would not have occurred. I just wish someone would have objected in their initial creation and testing thread with a plausible and unbiased reasoning around why such systems would fail. LVN brought up some good points I initially missed. Plasma and ionization would be a problem that is practically unable to be circumvented becasue it is hard wired into physics. There would be no way to shield the signatures outside of a massive technological advancement in Fusion that would allow power generators to produce extremely powerful magnetic fields around the missile and that would be well beyond current technology scales. That said, I'm re-describing my missiles in my guide. I'm also going to work more with the sea-crawler system which is far more feasible and will become stealth capable because the tiamats do not have to maintain a ridiculously high speed in order to get to their targets.. meaning you can stealth coat them like an aircraft and not have to worry about high-altitude plasma physics. So even though the mods ruled I could keep them, I am going to throw them out because I got a valid engineering/scientific argument as to why they should not be. Edited February 24, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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