King Srqt Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) Personally I also wouldn't have let Martens into my alliance no matter what lists he was or wasn't on, just because he has a tendency towards that sort of thing. But regardless, when the result of a "negotiaton" to let someone off a PZI list that hasn't been enforced for the better part of a year and a half, and when negotiations are even necessary for such an issue, someone is pushing where there's no reason to push. Whether that pushing is in private or public, it's still pushing. It seems, from the generous terms here, that Zenith and their side, despite having no practical reason or legal obligation to do so much as issue a "sorry for not telling you, we didn't know," were being very conciliatory, so GOD must have been doing the pushing. Its hard to say you didn't know when it was made publicly clear before he was accepted. He was not yet a member of Zenith when GOD said that he was on ZI, Zenith wanted him in their alliance and they negotiated with GOD to get him off of GOD's list. Unless you would support an alliance knowingly accepting a PZI nation into their alliance without negotiating to get him off the list then I do not believe you have a leg to stand on. Which is what I noted after writing the reply, which is why I edited my post. I only later understood you were reacting to the post of Heft, not directly to the matter of KM and how Zenith handled that. No worries it happens , for the record I think Zenith handled this situation very well Edited February 17, 2009 by KingSrqt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Personally I also wouldn't have let Martens into my alliance no matter what lists he was or wasn't on, just because he has a tendency towards that sort of thing. But regardless, when the result of a "negotiaton" to let someone off a PZI list that hasn't been enforced for the better part of a year and a half, and when negotiations are even necessary for such an issue, someone is pushing where there's no reason to push. Whether that pushing is in private or public, it's still pushing. It seems, from the generous terms here, that Zenith and their side, despite having no practical reason or legal obligation to do so much as issue a "sorry for not telling you, we didn't know," were being very conciliatory, so GOD must have been doing the pushing. GOD just wanted Martens to reroll a new nation to get off their PZI list. Didn't even require hiding his identity. While, yes, they could have let him go entirely, that's not really how GOD works. Kaiser Martens was PZI. Kaiser Martens II, or anyone else for that matter, wasn't. I don't think Zenith did a lot of pushing, but there was most definitely pushing from more directions than just GOD. Especially considering that's not a particularly unreasonable term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 All I can say is: RoK, you overcharged us )): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 All I can say is: RoK, you overcharged us )): My bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 All I can say is: RoK, you overcharged us )): You have to correct for exchange rates. The international dollar buys considerably less in Gramlinsland because your currency is worth so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Lee Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 All I can say is: RoK, you overcharged us )): We charged reps for cost of damage done. Unfortunately for GOD, they can only make a guess at what the damages to their alliance will be if KM decides to use his MP against them in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Actually as I recall the amount we paid was reduced below the actual amount of damage done, and in my opinion it was a pretty fair deal. But clearly, Wen is three times more important than KM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer99 Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) So you feel that alliances knowingly accepting PZI targets into their alliance without working out a deal to get them off of said list is acceptable behavior? I believe that's an incorrect characterization of the situation. KM was an applicant while Zenith was trying to resolve the situation. He was not accepted until AFTER reaching a solution with GOD. EDIT: As a side note, why are we still discussing this when it was not the determining factor in the treaty cancellation? Edited February 17, 2009 by Slayer99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 I believe that's an incorrect characterization of the situation. KM was an applicant while Zenith was trying to resolve the situation. He was not accepted until AFTER reaching a solution with GOD. Srqt already pointed out that he was responding to Heft by giving the alternative to what happened, not describing the actual situstion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 I believe that's an incorrect characterization of the situation. KM was an applicant while Zenith was trying to resolve the situation. He was not accepted until AFTER reaching a solution with GOD. I agree, which is why I made this post in response to the last person who said that I wasn't saying that Zenith knowingly accepted a ZI target (sorry if it came off that way) Heft seemed to think that you were wrong for reaching an agreement with GOD so I was asking if he would have supported an alliance knowingly accepting a ZI target (as that would have been the alternative to what you did) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hormones74 Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 We charged reps for cost of damage done. Unfortunately for GOD, they can only make a guess at what the damages to their alliance will be if KM decides to use his MP against them in the future. Who's to say whether or not KM will use his MP in the future? Certainly not anyone other can KM can make that ultimate decision. And from I've seen over the past week, I think we have a new and improved KM playing now. For that be thankful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hormones74 Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Not very often, considering it hasn't happened much. When it does we've never been aggressive about it, and if it's someone that we weren't really actively pursuing anyway then we tend to let it go. We certainly don't try and reach a "settlement" involving a 60M pay-off. There was no reason here for an issue to exist other than someone wanting an issue to exist. That's not the sort of behavior that I would try to reward, as it would only give the impression that people can get away with it. I havent met you before. But now I want to. We do think alike. And everything stated here is the truth if I've ever seen the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicknight Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) Curses. My tinfoil hat is in the shop getting fitted with lead lining as per GRAN nuclear preparation protocol. For the time being I'm only able to deal in cold hard fact. Good luck with that. Edited February 17, 2009 by mythicknight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yubyubsan Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 So you feel that alliances knowingly accepting PZI targets into their alliance without working out a deal to get them off of said list is acceptable behavior? I'm not advocating what TPF did, but Xiph shouldn't have taken the bait. Both sides could have handled the situation better, the only difference between the two is that one was casting the reel, and the other was biting down onto a very small worm on a very large hook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archon Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Funny to think he once lead an alliance that was part of the World Unity Treaty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heft Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Its hard to say you didn't know when it was made publicly clear before he was accepted. He was not yet a member of Zenith when GOD said that he was on ZI, Zenith wanted him in their alliance and they negotiated with GOD to get him off of GOD's list. Unless you would support an alliance knowingly accepting a PZI nation into their alliance without negotiating to get him off the list then I do not believe you have a leg to stand on. I think Zenith handled the situation well enough, and obviously they responded differently than I would have. But the fact that every other alliance that had him on a list or another let him off without any problem (at least some of whom probably have more serious reasons to keep him on for 1.5 years+) lends credence to the idea that GOD was just being difficult. I would not advocate accepting PZI nations, but in practical terms it's really just a diplomatic courtesy, not a requirement or obligation. So it's entirely reasonable for me to assert that GOD was being deliberately hardline when they had no reason to do so, and to then extrapolate what sort of motives would lead to that sort of behavior. Most of the choices aren't very favorable. We charged reps for cost of damage done. Unfortunately for GOD, they can only make a guess at what the damages to their alliance will be if KM decides to use his MP against them in the future. I trust that you're not actually trying to be serious with that, because that remark is just silly. I'm not advocating what TPF did, but Xiph shouldn't have taken the bait. Both sides could have handled the situation better, the only difference between the two is that one was casting the reel, and the other was biting down onto a very small worm on a very large hook. And this is more of why I'm continuing this discussion. Somehow the idea that GOD wasn't responsible for making this what it was seems to be going around and people want to blame TPF or others. That belief just doesn't square with what we've seen. Obviously GOD isn't solely responsible, but they weren't baited into making the situation what it was, they did that of their own free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Verteidiger Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Funny to think he once lead an alliance that was part of the World Unity Treaty. Who'da thunk it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Lee Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 And from I've seen over the past week, I think we have a new and improved KM playing now. For that be thankful. Maybe so, I don't know him, but I'm sure he will enjoy getting back to playing the game. I trust that you're not actually trying to be serious with that, because that remark is just silly. Oh no! you're onto me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gofastleft Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 I think GOD got pushed into a corner, if you read the original thread they let it be known that KM was still on their list, Zenith said they would be in contact. If the thread could have been locked at that point we would not have had any of this drama for the last week. Instead other people, people not even involved started throwing their 2 cents in. Of course that is their right and it makes the drama fun, but it did not help the situation any. the fact that KM started another public thread while Zenith and GOD were in talks just made things even worse. In the end Zenith and God both did what they thought was right, things were solved in back rooms. With all of this outside interference and KM's actions it is completely reasonable to me to see how one side could be "difficult". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regent of Omerta Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 I agree with you on that GFL, completely. It's over and apparently resolved to everyone's satisfaction who was involved or so it seems. Why keep beating a dead horse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Controversy Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 It appears to be you beating the dead horse, this topic is more than a month old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eye Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Gravedig, lock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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