enderland Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 I don't know where this whole EVIL TPF thing came form Read bobjanova's post, and specifically his first point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VIdiot the Great Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Hmm, I guess the board is set and the pieces are in place. Queen's Pawn to E 4. An interesting opening gambit. And the other side's (whoever the heck that is - admin knows that I don't have a clue) response will be watched with much anticipation, I should think. Plus, they also forgot to try to ZI me when I was in NV and BDC. No one forgot. A point of etiquette, Kaiser. Pawns rarely speak while they are being moved. And please don't take umbrage at my comparison to a pawn, as I'm one of those replacement pawns in those little baggies that promptly get lost when the chess set is opened, by way of comparison. I'm not even on the board. Or am I.... I figure someone will tell me when it's time for me to know. VI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doitzel Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 I don't know where this whole EVIL TPF thing came form Hello I will be your guide to world politics my name is Doitzel. First I must get some basic information from you: Name: Date of Birth: Credit card number: Amount of time spent under that rock: Thank you for your cooperation I look forward to teaching you things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Flinders Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 You want to wipe an entire character off the planet for nuking? For using in game constructs against you? As you said Xiphosis, you orchestrated the destruction of KM's Nordland. His brain child and IC home. Is that not enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 You know, I could have sworn no one had made a threat thus far. Sure this thread is ugly, but no one has stooped to this. Thanks for being the first to go there, mhawk. You are confusing a threat with a dare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 (edited) Several things are interesting about this situation.Firstly, why are TPF, having vigorously prosecuted a PZI on KM and having used OOC/out-of-game information to destroy his alliance, now not only releasing him but aggressively pushing other alliances to release him as well? I am glad to see any PZI lifted but let's not pretend there aren't politics at work here; for some reason TPF and other Continuum alliances want KM not only to be free from their own wars, but also are prepared to stand on other alliances' sovereignty to enforce their own lists. What is special about KM? There are many other people on ZI lists of alliances closer to TPF, where they could apply their pressure more discreetly; if you are really against PZI then there wouldn't be other people listed (or 'not applicable for peace terms' which comes to much the same thing). Why are Zenith/TPF willing to pay $60m to have him free now, having kept him chained up for so long? Secondly, just how meaningless a ZI listing is if you are not in the 'big league'. If one of the well-connected alliances decides that someone is 'clean', there is nothing anyone else (even with a legitimate grievance) can do if they disagree. We've seen this before (with Pacifica taking WarriorConcept in despite him being listed by other alliances at the time) but this is a reminder that even in these days of a complex web binding everyone, there are still boss alliances and worker alliances. GOD's ZI lasted all of a few hours in the face of Continuum opposition and Continuum-sponsored protection. They get $60m as a palliative, but a ZI is usually 'worth' much more than that (as a comparison we had to pay $180m to get someone de-listed for using nukes in defence when he wanted to re-apply) and GOD have clearly been forced to accept a face-saving weak compromise. Third, if you ZI list someone you should at least try to keep them at war. Coming out of the woodwork when protection has apparently been agreed and then saying 'Oh yea he was on ZI from us for the last 18 months but we forgot to enforce it' makes you look petty and incompetent. And finally, that KM will always attract drama wherever he goes. Actually bob, since I've helped many get off some lists, Bobery(baps war), kingsqrt, tumin(baps war), Steodonn, theaut.. ect. My stance has been consistent. Flat out however I don't like KM. I told Zenith my opinion about it when they talked to us, but they are my allies and I understand their ooc reasons for wanting him. If you know me and my affinity for saying, "molon labe" I think yall would have a good laugh. Edited February 13, 2009 by mhawk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenzilla Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Actually bob, since I've helped many get off some lists, Bobery(baps war), kingsqrt, tumin(baps war), Steodonn, theaut.. ect. My stance has been consistent. Flat out however I don't like KM. I told Zenith my opinion about it when they talked to us, but they are my allies and I understand their ooc reasons for wanting him. If you know me and my affinity for saying, "molon labe" I think yall would have a good laugh. Mhawk, wanna get myself, Doitzel, Moridin, Starfox, and all of my other Vox friends off of perma ZI? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer99 Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Dear Bob Janova,Thank you for posting this so I didn't have to. Love, Electron Sponge PS I am sending you a complimentary fruit basket for saving me time, I hope you like guava PPS down with the hypocrites For the record: you'd be the one guy that would be the exception to my disdain for e-zi/p-zi. As for hypocrite? Pot, meet kettle. You're the biggest hypocrite around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electron Sponge Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 For the record: you'd be the one guy that would be the exception to my disdain for e-zi/p-zi.As for hypocrite? Pot, meet kettle. You're the biggest hypocrite around. I won't be on ZI forever, and I won't have to sell my soul to get out of it either. Change is coming and when it does you'll be one of the first against the wall. You keep saying that I'm a hypocrite but all you can do is bring up stuff that's from half of Bob's existence ago and even then only by practicing deception and attempting to cast my past actions in the worst possible light. I haven't bothered strenuously defending myself because to be quite honest the words of a few of the bottom feeders who have hitched their wagon to the falling star of the hegemony have nearly no effect on the general public (who love and admire their dear Sponge), but if you insist on calling me the 'biggest' and then not follow that word with 'sweetest most lovable guy in all the world' then we have a problem good sir. Why don't you start a discussion about why I'm such a hypocrite so I can gleefully eviscerate you there instead of crapping up this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Actually bob, since I've helped many get off some lists, Bobery(baps war), kingsqrt, tumin(baps war), Steodonn, theaut.. ect. My stance has been consistent. Flat out however I don't like KM. I told Zenith my opinion about it when they talked to us, but they are my allies and I understand their ooc reasons for wanting him. If you know me and my affinity for saying, "molon labe" I think yall would have a good laugh. I can vouch for this. I would not be here if not for mhawk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Secondly, just how meaningless a ZI listing is if you are not in the 'big league'. If one of the well-connected alliances decides that someone is 'clean', there is nothing anyone else (even with a legitimate grievance) can do if they disagree. We've seen this before (with Pacifica taking WarriorConcept in despite him being listed by other alliances at the time) but this is a reminder that even in these days of a complex web binding everyone, there are still boss alliances and worker alliances. Hmm, are you talking about when I became a protectorate? If so I was cut loose by NPO during that time then let my nation delete. I then came back with a new nation, and contacted alliances trying to get myself off ZI lists (you might recall my thread at the time) which succeeded, granted with the help of friends from the past. After I was removed off every alliance's list I then joined NPO. So, yeah get a better example, k? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryievla Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Firstly, why are TPF, having vigorously prosecuted a PZI on KM and having used OOC/out-of-game information to destroy his alliance, now not only releasing him but aggressively pushing other alliances to release him as well? I am glad to see any PZI lifted but let's not pretend there aren't politics at work here; for some reason TPF and other Continuum alliances want KM not only to be free from their own wars, but also are prepared to stand on other alliances' sovereignty to enforce their own lists. What did you think TPF had to gain by letting him go? Hmm? What did Q gain? I know what I anticipated: a lot of derision and scorn, and accusations of hypocrisy. I was certainly not disappointed in that regard. We can't even realistically say, "Oh, we know where he is at least." We would anyway, as he has chosen to disdain rerolling as an option. It being KM, with his colorful history, we don't even gain good PR from it. This was just another guy wanting clearance. In the case of folks on other alliance's lists, we let them know hey, you still need cleared with name-your-alliance-here. Not a one of us knew about this GOD thing, or we would have let him know he was free from us, but still needed cleared elsewhere. I am reserving thoughts on the GOD issue. Been said and done to death, and some sort of peace has been achieved. I credit you with being quite intelligent, however, which makes me question the intent of your point one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alterego Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 (edited) For the record: you'd be the one guy that would be the exception to my disdain for e-zi/p-zi.As for hypocrite? Pot, meet kettle. You're the biggest hypocrite around. I'm also baffled by this whole thread. The so called evil hegemony gets someone off a E-ZI list and all the people who signed up to the "we'll never do E-ZI doctrine" come crawling out of the woodwork to oppose it. I won't be on ZI forever, and I won't have to sell my soul to get out of it either. Change is coming and when it does you'll be one of the first against the wall. If you got this information from the same place as your Bastion alliance list I wouldnt hold your breath. Edited February 13, 2009 by Alterego Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 (edited) I don't think anyone opposed the release of KM from Continuum's ZI lists. GOD opposed the pressure on them to make their decision for them, and so did some commentators. People are simply speculating as to why the position has changed and why at this time. Slayer has sent me a PM which puts forward his opinion on the matter and I've said my piece so I don't want to get into it again. E: Ok, a couple of people did, but it is certainly not the general tone of the two threads. Edited February 13, 2009 by Bob Janova Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChairmanHal Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 I'm also baffled by this whole thread. The so called evil hegemony gets someone off a E-ZI list and all the people who signed up to the "we'll never do E-ZI doctrine" come crawling out of the woodwork to oppose it. Except that KM (if that is your reference) wasn't on a EZI list, he was on a PZI list. GOD was rather clear about that. Also, I've come out in favor of KM getting terms and getting off the PZI list and spoke probably over a dozen times against EZI in various threads across these forums. I'd do the whole "do you know who I am" thing, but never mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alterego Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 (edited) Except that KM (if that is your reference) wasn't on a EZI list, he was on a PZI list. GOD was rather clear about that.Also, I've come out in favor of KM getting terms and getting off the PZI list and spoke probably over a dozen times against EZI in various threads across these forums. I'd do the whole "do you know who I am" thing, but never mind. Perhaps there is a middle type of ZI between EZI & PZI. Forcing a deletion is not PZI and its not much of an argument to say PZI with forced deletion is better than EZI. Perma-ZI is where a nation is reduced to ZI, and then not permitted to rebuild its infrastructure at any point again in the future. Supposedly, it is considered to be a death knell for a given nation. Nations sentenced to Perma-ZI are expected then to either leave Cyber Nations altogether or delete their nations and create new ones anonymously.However, as a nation is continually attacked it becomes smaller and smaller. Thus, those sent to declare new wars when the current ones expire tend to be weaker, less experienced and with less investment in whatever hatred is directed at the nation designated for Perma-ZI. But much of this depends upon whether the Perma-ZI actually did something wrong or merely offended a more powerful group. If it's the latter, in practical terms usually the designation only lasts for a matter of weeks or months at most. What can be problematic is that anyone who gives the designated nation traceable aid may also be subject to attack for an indefinite period. So sometimes the Perma-ZI's friends will be savaged as a means to punish him. Edited February 13, 2009 by Alterego Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilkenny Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 I was forced to delete my nation in UJW for following through with an order to nuke Legion. So I don't think it is that outrageous. Also again since people seem to have trouble reading the entirety of a thread, the reason he was on PZI is the OOC motivation behind the ZI he ordered on Xiphosis. And how long after the UJW did you delete?? Were you let go 18 months, and then when you were almost clear someone poped up and said, no you must re-roll?? I guess I didn't make myself clear on that point, my laughter and scorn is at that point. If this was such a big deal to Xiphosis, why wait until 18 months later to make an issue of it?? Obviously it wasn't a big issue with him, until he thought he could get some mileage off of it, or in this case a bunch of money. And I got that point about the OOC motivation, but also see above. I do not believe that is was that big of deal at all, else why wait 18 months. If KM had been chased for the last 18 months, I would buy it, but at this time, I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steodonn Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 (edited) Hello I will be your guide to world politics my name is Doitzel. First I must get some basic information from you:Name: Date of Birth: Credit card number: Amount of time spent under that rock: Thank you for your cooperation I look forward to teaching you things. You leave my rock alone and I dont have a crdit card I gott to get in the loop again whats ups Edited February 13, 2009 by steodonn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperion321 Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 I haven't read the whole thread yet, but has anyone considered that KM is only 4,900 NS while being 1100 days old. Obviously if he were not taken out multiple times over the course of that 18 months he would be well over 4,900 NS. I'm not sure who kept him down for that long, but somebody did. I'd like to assume it was GOD since I know for a fact they are very, very good at killing things. So, unless someone else can point me to whoever has been pulling the trigger I'd like to think the whole "they didn't do anything for 18 months" argument is kind of disproved now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 I haven't read the whole thread yet, but has anyone considered that KM is only 4,900 NS while being 1100 days old. Obviously if he were not taken out multiple times over the course of that 18 months he would be well over 4,900 NS.I'm not sure who kept him down for that long, but somebody did. I'd like to assume it was GOD since I know for a fact they are very, very good at killing things. So, unless someone else can point me to whoever has been pulling the trigger I'd like to think the whole "they didn't do anything for 18 months" argument is kind of disproved now. I believe tpf was nuking him most the time since the last war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer99 Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 I won't be on ZI forever, and I won't have to sell my soul to get out of it either. Change is coming and when it does you'll be one of the first against the wall.You keep saying that I'm a hypocrite but all you can do is bring up stuff that's from half of Bob's existence ago and even then only by practicing deception and attempting to cast my past actions in the worst possible light. I haven't bothered strenuously defending myself because to be quite honest the words of a few of the bottom feeders who have hitched their wagon to the falling star of the hegemony have nearly no effect on the general public (who love and admire their dear Sponge), but if you insist on calling me the 'biggest' and then not follow that word with 'sweetest most lovable guy in all the world' then we have a problem good sir. Why don't you start a discussion about why I'm such a hypocrite so I can gleefully eviscerate you there instead of crapping up this one? You don't have a soul to sell Sponge...you pissed that away a long time ago with the rest of your hypocrisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer99 Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Mhawk, wanna get myself, Doitzel, Moridin, Starfox, and all of my other Vox friends off of perma ZI? Chickenzilla: I'd gladly try to get you off of perma-ZI...if only so you could set up another alliance and I could plot again to destroy it. You were fun back in the day.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperion321 Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 (edited) ugh. nevermind. I'm not awake enough to post. /me goes to bed Edited February 14, 2009 by Hyperion321 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBone Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 I don't think anyone opposed the release of KM from Continuum's ZI lists. GOD opposed the pressure on them to make their decision for them, and so did some commentators. People are simply speculating as to why the position has changed and why at this time. Slayer has sent me a PM which puts forward his opinion on the matter and I've said my piece so I don't want to get into it again.E: Ok, a couple of people did, but it is certainly not the general tone of the two threads. Bob, I don't think any pressure was applied to xip or god in general, overtly or covertly, unless you consider statements along the lines of "DK and Zenith are our (TPFs) allies and we respect AND back their decisions on this matter. We would do that for any ally, as I'm sure you would. It was only after semi inflammatory statements were made regarding threats, aid and pointy stick posts, that things began to get testy. All in all it seems to have worked out well for everyone involved, KM is free, Zenith gets a new member, god gets paid, woodys a hero and Slayer gets to show everyone he is the 'sweetest most lovable guy in all the world'. Life is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 ugh. nevermind. I'm not awake enough to post./me goes to bed The issue has since been resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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