Issues With GOD

[Kaiser Martens]

(I made this so that this can be discussed separately from all the other things being discussed in the Haiku thread)

The last few days there's been some discussions between my alliance, Zenith, and GOD, since things do not seem to be progressing awfully fast, I decided that I'd shed some light on the issue in order to see if a solution can be brought about faster. Peacemode does not suit me well.

There's a key to understanding this problem, and this is its origins: The Unjust War.

GOD Was one of the alliances sent over as a hurried fire brigade in order to stop the Nordlandic advancements. Them and around four or five more, not sure. Either way, they all failed miserably although they were very close to victory, and so Norden Verein with its old Ferrous and Pacific and many other pals won the war. Part of what was involved in GOD's defeat was Xiphosis being ZI'd. I honestly don't remember if he actually did get ZI'd or not, but there was something about ZIing him over there.

And guess who's opposing primarily my release? Ol' Xiph himself. But, here's the thing...when I went to war, GOD never actually did fight me or take any interest in me, and they missed out on the part in which I was ZI'd (or less than 20 infra away at least) and bill locked for a long time, only saved by foreign aid just barely from that one fellow who kept talking about executing babies in the other thread. So technically if Xiph wanted to be even and have me ZId, it did happen. Yet, GOD only took any interest or attention in me when I made the other thread, this shows that had I not made the thread, they wouldn't have even remembered to take a look at me - they didn't go through the problem of beating me down like the others did, nor having any diplomatic pressure - and now they dislike what has been decided. This behavior is not very consistent.

I do not hold a grudge against these guys, in spite of this. I mean - Slayer practically was the primary responsible (Save for Nordland itself) for Norden Verein's destruction, and we are in good terms. And then there's the old Communists I used to fight several times a years, I get along great with many of them. I even get along with many Nordreichers who were once bitter about its destruction, too. And then there's even TC, how could I hold a grudge against 'em after being released in generous terms? I would hope for GOD to be able to move on, as I want to move on as well. Clinging onto past problems is destructive for the moral of both Soldiers and Generals.

Yet even then, Zenith's answer was not just a flat-out negative. They offered a rather big amount of Technology in order to make up for me joinin' em. GOD said no. I would like to see if there's anything that can be done. It is not my place to say what comes to be the resolution of this issue. Only god knows.

What will it be then?

[Kilkenny]

I would be interested in seeing if anything could be done as well.

[Delta1212]

You nuked GOD while they were in the middle of surrendering despite vowing not to use nuclear first strikes in the war and then had Xiphosis ZI'd at the bequest of an OOC stalker of his. They now request that you reroll in order to get off of their ZI list.

Issues?

[Slayer99]

You nuked GOD while they were in the middle of surrendering despite vowing not to use nuclear first strikes in the war and then had Xiphosis ZI'd at the bequest of an OOC stalker of his. They now request that you reroll in order to get off of their ZI list.

Issues?

All the same, Xiphosis wasn't perma-ZIed or asked to re-roll. Seems a bit of a stretch.

[ochocinco]

You nuked GOD while they were in the middle of surrendering despite vowing not to use nuclear first strikes in the war and then had Xiphosis ZI'd at the bequest of an OOC stalker of his. They now request that you reroll in order to get off of their ZI list.

Issues?

Wow, owned hard.

:lol:

I think this thread can be called "over" at this point.

[Kaiser Martens]

Lol, you're saying I nuked the guy cause of OOC stalking?

I didn't even nuke or "have him" nuked, the guy who did so did so disobeying my orders in desperation due to the difficulties of the war, which was wrong, and GOD leadership was notified about this. My orders were specifically not to nuke, you might want to go and ZI whoever it was that did nuke him instead.

[Delta1212]

In all the conversations I've had with him, Xiphosis has generally seemed more upset about the fact that NoV launched a nuclear first strike on his alliance while they were in the middle of surrendering and couldn't have responded. I only addressed the issue of his ZI because Martens brought it up.

[Xiphosis]

You nuked GOD while they were in the middle of surrendering despite vowing not to use nuclear first strikes in the war and then had Xiphosis ZI'd at the bequest of an OOC stalker of his. They now request that you reroll in order to get off of their ZI list.

Issues?

This. Our terms for the end of your PZI are minimal, the end of your IC character and nothing more. I entrusted to TPF the destruction of Norden Verein and did my best to aid in seeing to it happen (both providing a CB and offering my military existence assistance, which was refused) and assumed they would see to your continued ZI. Given that this did not happen, I took up the slack.

Clear?

Edited February 13, 2009 by Xiphosis

[Big Z]

Lol, you're saying I nuked the guy cause of OOC stalking?

I didn't even nuke or "have him" nuked, the guy who did so did so disobeying my orders in desperation due to the difficulties of the war, which was wrong, and GOD leadership was notified about this. My orders were specifically not to nuke, you might want to go and ZI whoever it was that did nuke him instead.

Mmhmm. And your refusal to kick out the multiple people responsible for nuking us or allowing us to retaliate with nuclear strikes back?

Edited February 13, 2009 by Big Z

[bandnerd]

Lol, you're saying I nuked the guy cause of OOC stalking?

I didn't even nuke or "have him" nuked, the guy who did so did so disobeying my orders in desperation due to the difficulties of the war, which was wrong, and GOD leadership was notified about this. My orders were specifically not to nuke, you might want to go and ZI whoever it was that did nuke him instead.

i can vouch that. one of the top things being pressed by the higher ups during that war was not to nuke.

[Desperado]

The problem I see with this whole situation is that some people just can't let the past go. KM getting free from everyone then GOD went in and ruined the party.

[Delta1212]

Lol, you're saying I nuked the guy cause of OOC stalking?

I didn't even nuke or "have him" nuked, the guy who did so did so disobeying my orders in desperation due to the difficulties of the war, which was wrong, and GOD leadership was notified about this. My orders were specifically not to nuke, you might want to go and ZI whoever it was that did nuke him instead.

It looks like you didn't read my post, or are responding to a fanciful creation that only exists in your own mind.

[ochocinco]

The problem I see with this whole situation is that some people just can't let the past go. KM getting free from everyone then GOD went in and ruined the party.

Letting someone like Martens go isn't exactly a party. It's not like GOD peed in your cereal. Why the hell do you care so much about Kaiser Martens' freedom?

[A Soviet Attack]

It looks like you didn't read my post, or are responding to a fanciful creation that only exists in your own mind.

Uhh...

My reading comprehension goes to hell when I'm tired, so maybe I'm being stupid, but it seems to me like he addressed both the points you raised.

On an eternally relevant note: Stop holding grudges and learn to have a little fun.

I can't help myself: "An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind." - Gandhi

[Kaiser Martens]

In all the conversations I've had with him, Xiphosis has generally seemed more upset about the fact that NoV launched a nuclear first strike on his alliance while they were in the middle of surrendering and couldn't have responded. I only addressed the issue of his ZI because Martens brought it up.

Well, to this I will speak two different points:

Firstly, the attack itself was not ment to happen. The terms given to GOD were, because of this attack, actually decreased. So we didn't simply pretend it "didn't happen", and we took responsability for that $%&@up.

Secondly, it's war. In war, people get hurt. If one chooses to go to war, one shouldn't complain about getting hurt, one way or the other. GOD attacked NoV, not the other way about. We could have done nothing and you'd still would have needed to accept it, but we were nice and as said above diminished terms because of this accident - which pissed me off greatly.

This. Our terms for the end of your PZI are minimal, the end of your IC character and nothing more.

Do you realize what you're saying? You're saying that your "minimal" terms are for me not to be myself. How is this in any way minimal? This is the worst term ever, if I ever had to pick between this terms and the other terms plus the war I did already fight, it's still better to fight, eventually get stomped, and then given normal terms. You're asking me to stop being myself, what fun is CN if I'm not myself? It makes no sense. What am I supposed to do, try to act another personality? LOL

I entrusted to TPF the destruction of Norden Verein and did my best to aid in seeing to it happen (both providing a CB and offering my military existence, which was refused) and assumed they would see to your continued ZI. Given that this did not happen, I took up the slack.

If you wanted me dead, you should have had a more active role, it shows that you do not communicate with your allies, otherwise they'd have at least been notified by you about this. You simply assumed it'd be fine and walked away from the situation, just a brief reminder PM would have done the trick. Not their fault, not my fault, only your fault.

[Slayer99]

This. Our terms for the end of your PZI are minimal, the end of your IC character and nothing more. I entrusted to TPF the destruction of Norden Verein and did my best to aid in seeing to it happen (both providing a CB and offering my military existence, which was refused) and assumed they would see to your continued ZI. Given that this did not happen, I took up the slack.

Clear?

That you did. No issue there Xiphosis. However, I don't call making a guy re-roll with a nation over 1100 days old, minimal. Ending his IC character is not minimal.

The issue here is that whatever the cause of the in-game action that has you so upset, wiping the guy off PB forever isn't really a fair trade. He didn't spy, he didn't steal, he didn't attack your forums or sanction you. He nuked you during a war.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of Martens...of this everyone knows...and I wanted him ZIed...but not P-ZI.

Edited February 13, 2009 by Slayer99

[Bob Janova]

So, now we have GOD trying to ZI someone who is protected by Zenith and vouched clear by TPF. It will be interesting to see what happens here. PZI over being in an alliance which nuked you is a bit of a joke though when you consider the number of nukes which did fly in the UjW, and also the Polar/Hyperion war.

[Irisheyes]

I believe Kaiser Martens should be let off, We need to keep all the interesting people left in Planet Bob as much as possible

[Delta1212]

Uhh...

My reading comprehension goes to hell when I'm tired, so maybe I'm being stupid, but it seems to me like he addressed both the points you raised.

On an eternally relevant note: Stop holding grudges and learn to have a little fun.

I can't help myself: "An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind." - Gandhi

He had Xiphosis ZI'd, not nuked, and he refused to punish the nations that apparently went against his orders and nuked a surrendering alliance, namely GOD, which he didn't address at all. Most alliance with nuclear rogues tend to at least attempt to make it look like they don't endorse the action by ejecting the nations in question. Considering that NoV was known to be especially tough on people who went against orders (ZI'ing members who surrender while at war) you'd think he'd have exacted some form of punishment on people who went nuke rogue against orders.

[Slayer99]

He had Xiphosis ZI'd, not nuked, and he refused to punish the nations that apparently went against his orders and nuked a surrendering alliance, namely GOD, which he didn't address at all. Most alliance with nuclear rogues tend to at least attempt to make it look like they don't endorse the action by ejecting the nations in question. Considering that NoV was known to be especially tough on people who went against orders (ZI'ing members who surrender while at war) you'd think he'd have exacted some form of punishment on people who went nuke rogue against orders.

Dude, it was still wartime...albeit a very ugly war.

That being said what would be fair would be finishing off KM's ZI and then letting him off. P-ZIing him for that comes off as especially bitter...and to be honest, I thought more of you guys than to let things get that personal.

[Xiphosis]

Well, to this I will speak two different points:

Firstly, the attack itself was not ment to happen. The terms given to GOD were, because of this attack, actually decreased. So we didn't simply pretend it "didn't happen", and we took responsability for that $%&@up.

The terms were decreased because of the intervention by Doctor Fresh of MCXA. NoV's initial demands on us were upwards of 400 m (double what we ended up paying). The attack was ordered by your military people (guys I know who later went to SoM confirmed this to me) in frustration, and was a clear violation of a good faith agreement between Strider and myself not to escalate the war to nukes.

Secondly, it's war. In war, people get hurt. If one chooses to go to war, one shouldn't complain about getting hurt, one way or the other. GOD attacked NoV, not the other way about.

You attacked GOONS in a first-strike, GOD attacked back. GOD was a GOONS ally. Want to explain NV, PLUS, or the multitude of PIAT (sometimes less) allies NoV had hit us?

Do you realize what you're saying? You're saying that your "minimal" terms are for me not to be myself.

Not to be Kaiser Martens. Be Kaiser Martens II, I don't give a crap, but Kaiser Martens will cease to exist.

If you wanted me dead, you should have had a more active role, it shows that you do not communicate with your allies

TPF is not my ally. TPF had a common cause with GOD and worked together to achieve the aim, nothing more, nothing less.

[Coursca]

Clinging to these conflicts does nothing but breed more conflicts.

I think if the Continuum could move past our individual and collective histories with Kaiser Martens, that says something...

[ochocinco]

So, now we have GOD trying to ZI someone who is protected by Zenith and vouched clear by TPF. It will be interesting to see what happens here. PZI over being in an alliance which nuked you is a bit of a joke though when you consider the number of nukes which did fly in the UjW, and also the Polar/Hyperion war.

They're asking for a reroll, that's all. Sure, KM has some wonders, but it's not like his nation is particularly large by any measure.

What does it matter that he's protected by Zenith and cleared by TPF? Are they they end all, be all judge or right and wrong in CN now? If he were still on the ZI list of an alliance more "major" than GOD (say, for example... Valhalla, NPO, IRON, TPF, MCXA, etc.), there would be no question here. Everyone would stand aside and let him take his licks.

[Kaiser Martens]

I was already almost ZI'd and bill locked for many days. I had like 20-30 infra at a point, if they want I can delete 50 infra for 'em.

But I doubt they'd care for that, if it was just an issue about "resources", they'd have accepted the technology Zenith had offered.

The guy who nuked was punished later privately, and, as I said, GOD's surrender terms were decreased due to the nukage, and as for the ZI, well, I got nearly ZI'd too, it wasn't that terrible.

[A Soviet Attack]

He had Xiphosis ZI'd, not nuked, and he refused to punish the nations that apparently went against his orders and nuked a surrendering alliance, namely GOD, which he didn't address at all. Most alliance with nuclear rogues tend to at least attempt to make it look like they don't endorse the action by ejecting the nations in question. Considering that NoV was known to be especially tough on people who went against orders (ZI'ing members who surrender while at war) you'd think he'd have exacted some form of punishment on people who went nuke rogue against orders.

What this all boils down to is that he made a decision, as leader[?] of his alliance, during wartime, that Xiphosis disagrees with. What a great reason for Perma-ZI. Or a great excuse to flex some muscles?

Edited February 13, 2009 by A Soviet Attack