North Atlantic Defense Coalition Announcement

[hizzy]

From what I gather, the public view is that NADC does not honor its treaties due to being cowardly. Thus, why would TPF or any other alliance need to go through the effort to get NADC to drop an optional defense treaty which wasn't going to come into play anyway?

For the same reason they would drop an economy treaty before a war, perhaps? It's political isolation. Hell, I wager TPF didn't even necessarily ask them to do it. They probably just heard that TGE was in trouble and decided to distance themselves from it. It's like watchman said, afterall;

I am hopeful that TGE can get their current situation resolved and we can renew ties.

[jer]

Those that lament the proliferation of treaties that they see as empty should be hailing this. Here is an alliance canceling a treaty because it had become empty and no longer reflected what relations actually were. They didn't keep it for appearances or for power, two reasons some alliance leaders seem to think are shallow reasons to have a treaty, and yet they're still criticized. You may not like NADC or agree with this move, but at least it changes something. You're welcome to hail the status quo, but I'll be welcoming the change.

I believe the issue lies in the fact that in the past treaties have only been re-evaluated in the way that you suggest when the other partner is about to get rolled. TGE has had some issues recently and - low and behold - their treaty partners begin to realise that actually they were not that good friends with their partner after all. If this cancellation was made with an alliance who hadn't been put in the spotlight recently I'm confident that it would not be treated with such disdain. As it is, it appears as though they're happy to have added NS on their side in the good times, but they don't want to stick with them when they hit a rough patch.

It has been a precedent to use the standard and vague 'we've drifted apart' reasons for cancellations (whilst keeping the real reasons in private) as a pre-cursor to a beat-down and now you're seeing the results. One way to fight this is to ditch the vague reasons and start telling the community the whole truth about the cancellation (including full details of alleged violations)... obviously this means sacrificing some of the back-room only dealings, but if you care about public perception of your cancellation you will not have a problem with that.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Aimee Mann

[Cobalt]

That leaves TGE on the side the Continuum has been wanting to hit for over a year: FOK/TGE/TOP/Gramlins/Umbrella/etc

This is one of my favorite tinfoil stories of all time.

Tinfoil: Continuum wants to take out citadel

Literate Folk: You do realize both TOP and OG are in the Continuum, and both have several redundant treaties with other continuum members?

Tinfoil: Details, Details...

[Francesca]

Evidence to the point, please? Allegations of a conspiracy should be accompanied by proof.

From what I gather, the public view is that NADC does not honor its treaties due to being cowardly. Thus, why would TPF or any other alliance need to go through the effort to get NADC to drop an optional defense treaty which wasn't going to come into play anyway? Aside from making things look nice and clean (which would probably mean all MDAPs and MDoAPs had been cleared away first) it's a meaningless act. I'd hazard that the grand conspirators at work here 1) are incredibly and inexcuseably incompetant to the point that anything they do would fail within minutes of inception (see: The Rebillon) or 2) don't exist.

I quite like NADC, but that's irrelevant I suppose. The thing is, ODPs are a symbol of friendship between two alliances, which is theoretically a good enough reason for TPF to get them to get rid of it. But I'm not sure what's going on, and I'm certainly not sure TPF forced NADC into this.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

Sad to see TGE lose another treaty. Hope things get better.

[SunnyInc]

This is a very interesting announcement, mostly due to TPF's recent treaty drop with TGE, as has already been noted. What confuses me is that in order for TPF to attack TGE, all those Continuum alliances with ODP's or whatever with TGE would have to drop them due to the wording of Q, or TPF would have to leave, and I don't see that happening unless some mighty sh*t has been going on behind the scenes, which I doubt. But the two treaty drops in a row just seem very curious...

You have a really bad habit of reading into things that should be taken at face value and its only going to cause trouble when it spills over into public channels. If you put your ear to the ground in the private channels you'll notice that most people are fairly confident that Q will stay intact.

Most likely TPF will not be the alliance that will hit TGE directly, if their SNOW pleas are any cue. TGE really has no treaties of importance now outside of that with TOOL. If history guides us, TOOL will continue to tow the TPF line. That leaves TGE on the side the Continuum has been wanting to hit for over a year: FOK/TGE/TOP/Gramlins/Umbrella/etc

Why would Pacifica want to hit Citadel when it has ties Defence Pacts with TOP and OG? As a matter of fact most of the Q alliances have good relations with Citadel so I have no idea where the whole Q vs Citadel conspiracy theory comes from.

[Augustus Autumn]

If this cancellation was made with an alliance who hadn't been put in the spotlight recently I'm confident that it would not be treated with such disdain.

You've very likely correct in this. The cancellation of an already-optional defensive agreement has instead become a herald to the end of TGE on the simple grounds that it's TGE and someone/everyone must want them dead (except for FOK and The International, of course).

As it is, it appears as though they're happy to have added NS on their side in the good times, but they don't want to stick with them when they hit a rough patch.

Alternately, events have proceeded to a point where one of the alliances has decided to end the formal relationship. Watchman and the rest of NADC has already extended an offer to speak privately and away from the OWF on the subject as a measure of respect and a desire not to air the dirty laundy of TGE to the rest of the Cyberverse. Were the entire affair malicious I'd expect that you'd have seen NADC and TGE sniping at each other in the thread - if anything, it appears that NADC Gov and TGE Gov have been doing nothing but being more-than-civil in this very thread.

It has been a precedent to use the standard and vague 'we've drifted apart' reasons for cancellations (whilst keeping the real reasons in private) as a pre-cursor to a beat-down and now you're seeing the results. One way to fight this is to ditch the vague reasons and start telling the community the whole truth about the cancellation (including full details of alleged violations)... obviously this means sacrificing some of the back-room only dealings, but if you care about public perception of your cancellation you will not have a problem with that.

I beleive this was already addressed by myself earlier in the thread. You go public, people say it's disrespectful and demand you keep it private. You go private, people say it's a conspiracy and demand you expose everything. You've been given an avenue to acquire first-hand motivations on the part of NADC for the cancellation of this treaty - why not do that first and then, if you're still not sure, come on back? The general public should at least give Watchman the chance to make good on his pledge rather than judge the whole affair without doing a bit of research.

[Francesca]

You have a really bad habit of reading into things that should be taken at face value and its only going to cause trouble when it spills over into public channels. If you put your ear to the ground in the private channels you'll notice that most people are fairly confident that Q will stay intact.

I actually said that I didn't think that TPF would leave. I also said that all the Continuum alliances with treaties with TGE would have to drop them, which I implied was unlikely. I didn't say that I thought Q would collapse.

In fact I said "and I don't think the Continuum will go to war with Citadel at this point" in another post which further implies that Q will not collapse.

/me sighs.

[boscher]

As Barkeater said, the member nations of NADC decided to do this instead of maintaining an empty treaty. This was very difficult. We took the North Sea Accords very seriously - seriously enough not to let it become empty words.

I am hopeful that TGE can get their current situation resolved and we can renew ties.

With all respect towards NADC (because I really do like them) but this makes me laugh, playing the TGE-has-issues-card is too easy. I know for one thing that I did my utmost best to inform you guys as friends and allies about the status of TGE in these last weeks. A status which is not marked by internal chaos or anarchy, but rather by some foreign affairs issues.

If you took the treaty so seriously, why didn’t you even bother to inform me of your cancelation, knowing that I am online in your channel daily?

Again I respect your decision to cancel the treaty, it is your full right as an alliance to do so, it is just the way you presented this decision I don’t like

Edited February 8, 2009 by boscher

[Augustus Autumn]

With all respect towards NADC (because I really do like them) but this makes me laugh, playing the TGE-has-issues-card is too easy.

Sometimes the truth really is that simple and clear-cut?

A status which is not marked by internal chaos or anarchy, but rather by some foreign affairs issues.

You know this is not the entirety of the truth, otherwise you would not be complaining to members of other alliances about the state of internal affairs in your own, especially members of other alliances who you are unofficially not supposed to be speaking to.

If you took the treaty so seriously, why didn’t you even bother to inform me of your cancelation, knowing that I am online in your channel daily?

I have a few thoughts on this I'd love to offer privately to you.

Again I respect your decision to cancel the treaty, it is your full right as an alliance to do so, it is just the way you presented this decision I don’t like

But...but...but...the drama which the masses have craved has been provided!

[boscher]

You know this is not the entirety of the truth, otherwise you would not be complaining to members of other alliances about the state of internal affairs in your own, especially members of other alliances who you are unofficially not supposed to be speaking to.

I wanted to improve relations with TSI, as a new minister I thought I could shed some fresh light on those relations. However that is totally offtopic

[Augustus Autumn]

I wanted to improve relations with TSI, as a new minister I thought I could shed some fresh light on those relations. However that is totally offtopic

I highly doubt the discussion (or complaint) about the internal status of your alliance was relevant to the improvement of TGE-TSI relations (though they have indeed improved). What is significant is that the complaint took place and has been repeated by multiple people multiple times. While the methodology of NADC's cancellation may indeed be questionable, if their motivation to do so was due to unease and instability present within TGE then the "TGE-has-issues card" becomes terribly relevant terribly quickly.

[Bob Janova]

It's only an ODP, who cares? But not providing the 48h notice in private is quite rude, in my opinion.

[Rextu]

It's only an ODP, who cares? But not providing the 48h notice in private is quite rude, in my opinion.

I agree.

As for who may attack who as a result of this, the treaty web is too damn complicated to figure out!

[Augustus Autumn]

As for who may attack who as a result of this, the treaty web is too damn complicated to figure out!

Anyone who attacks TGE is a fool. Between the beating they would take in the public mindset as well as the embroiling of themselves in wars with FOK, The International, TOOL and several others they would likely not fare well. Logic dictates that an attack is unlikely at best.

[Tom Litler]

This is one of my favorite tinfoil stories of all time.

Tinfoil: Continuum wants to take out citadel

Tinfoil: the Initiative will break apart.

Tinfoil: the GPA will be attacked.

Tinfoil: the NpO will be attacked.

Give it a rest, will you? At least come up with an original way to deny the inevitable rather than that it simply won't happen.

[Shurukian]

I agree.

As for who may attack who as a result of this, the treaty web is too damn complicated to figure out!

Oh my gosh, here's an idea.

Maybe NADC actually did tell everyone the real reason, and they just do not feel that the friendship between NADC and TGE has been upheld.

And maybe, just maybe, no one wants to take out TGE, they just need to look at themselves internally and get their act together.

But no, that must be crazy! Of course everyone must have hidden motives, since we all sneak around behind each other's backs like little trolls with vendettas.

/me resighs.

Edit: This is not me trolling your post, Rextu, just making an exasperated response to the 45028962 replies of, "Oh, they're gonna get rolled!"

Edited February 8, 2009 by Shurukian

[Anu Drake]

For the record, because I can't seem to find the announcement and because Bob Janova is reading this, NATO and TGE split ways a couple of weeks ago and our PIAT was canceled.

[Bob Janova]

You could just edit the list

Edit: I don't think that treaty ever made it onto the web in the first place.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Bob Janova

[hizzy]

Oh my gosh, here's an idea.

Maybe NADC actually did tell everyone the real reason, and they just do not feel that the friendship between NADC and TGE has been upheld.

And maybe, just maybe, no one wants to take out TGE, they just need to look at themselves internally and get their act together.

And maybe I'm a paper clip.

[Morskov]

The NADC war honor survival machine presses valiantly forward. :jihad:

[Barkeaters]

Commentary is just commentary and jabs are just jabs. What was said IS what it IS. We could have closed the thread and we would have been called cowards. In fact I find some of this commentary very interesting.

[Alterego]

Tinfoil: the Initiative will break apart.

Tinfoil: the GPA will be attacked.

Tinfoil: the NpO will be attacked.

Give it a rest, will you? At least come up with an original way to deny the inevitable rather than that it simply won't happen.

The point of a denial is to deny not to entertain you by giving it an original twist, give it a rest yourself. Nearly every time a treaty is canceled, signed, upgraded or downgraded the speculation starts sometimes its right most of the time its wrong. That is why people dismiss the speculation with the tinfoil hat phrase.

The only way you could know its inevitable is to have inside information. Is that speculation or the truth? Please respond with the appropriate "phrase".

Edited February 8, 2009 by Alterego

[Great Lakes Union]

As someone with absolutely no inside knowledge of what, if anything, is going to happen, I think you may have missed the reason why many people are claiming this to be cowardice.

Given the rumours of TGE being "rolled", I think the people attacking NADC for this are doing it because they don't believe NADC's story, and think it is merely a case of Optional Spinatisis.

DK has much more "inside information" about relations on the white sphere than you.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Great Lakes Union

[William Blake]

You've very likely correct in this. The cancellation of an already-optional defensive agreement has instead become a herald to the end of TGE on the simple grounds that it's TGE and someone/everyone must want them dead (except for FOK and The International, of course).

*cough cough* We don't want them dead either