Lacuna Populi

[Sal Paradise]

No no no... darkness is the absence of light. Shadows need light. Sweetness needs sugar and thus drinking piña coladas under the shade of an umbrella is sweetness and light.

As you can see, from my epistemological analysis of the material conditions, the hegemony™ is the umbrella and Vox the piña colada. Both integral parts of a philosophy I call Sal Paradism: lounging on a warm sunny beach and watching the mad stupid world die.

[Louisa]

Yes, everything would just be shadow.

Sorry there Count da Silva, but I will have to subscribe to the Sal Paradisian theory regarding the absence of light.

But perhaps you could enlighten (teehee) me about another thing: when I read your "light and shadow" statement I was hoping (or perhaps more anticipating) some form of the old "where there is fire there is smoke" sort of thing. Could I perhaps ask what your view on that is and whether that has any relevance to this whole Voxian movement? Did you subconsciously think of that (either the phrase or Vox; take your choice) when you gave your example or is that a false reading from me (also I have found a new love for long badly-structured sentences; I highly recommend any reader to try them themself)?

(What a great day this has been; I should read dictionary.com every day )

[Starfox101]

I should have contributed a cool article about hair and how to have great hair.

I'll save it for next time.

[Grinder]

I thought your objective of this "war" was to drive your enemies into submission. that's not happening, so...yeah...I don't know how you can think you're winning anything in that regard...

[Opethian]

I was unaware that "peace and stability" meant the same thing as "suppression of dissonance and authoritarian dictatorship". Now, if you want to be honest, what is "preserved" by the suppression of vox militarily is not "peace and stability", but instead, the power-base of the NPO and it's allies; it's about self-preservation and not some deeper desire to secure peace.

[Doitzel]

My logic for "NPO did not lose" is that we were winning militarily.

Yes, the NPO is the only alliance in history to surrender in a war that it was winning. I think that makes you bigger losers than actually losing so you just cuddle that thought all you want.

Vox's objective was and continues to be destruction of the ruling bloc and the creation of a 'fair' world (first through international law, now through 'balance');

I will again yield back the laws you have put in place which dictate through armed enforcement which spheres nations and alliances may reside on and which they may not. I will yield back to the conventions you have set in place and uphold through armed enforcement against espionage practices, against recruiting from other alliances, against using peace mode as a strategic tool even as your own utilise it, and against the freedom to speak. Your scare tactics are amusing given that the interalliance organisations that the NPO has championed and established are the greatest enforcers of such law.

Vox's objective was and continues to be destruction of the ruling bloc and the creation of a 'fair' world (first through international law, now through 'balance'); the senate campaign was merely a part of that -- the attack on Vox that they lost their senate seat is to demonstrate their impotence, not to speak to the wider picture. A comparison there might be my attempt to get an inactive nuke heavy nation back into the fight against the coaluetion: I achieved that objective and got him into the fight, dealing a good amount of damage to the enemy, but my success in this is irrelevant to the wider picture. Regardless, as I have already pointed out, objectives had very little to do with my definition of victory. No. My logic for "Vox lost" is that they have been militarily slaughtered.

And our logic for "we haven't lost" is that there is more to war than soldiers and tanks. I have no preference for whose hand it should be on your throat and we will do what we must to show the world why that is necessary.

So Doitzel let me get this straight...

Because the NPO hasn't caused all of Vox to delete their nations and go away, you are winning the war? Interesting standards for war I must say. Congratulations, you are able to sign into your nations, collect and pay bills. Other than that, you have caused no real damage to the NPO aside from a brief stint in the Red Senate.

Your powers of observation serve you well as always.

I was facetiously applying Doppelganger's own standard from one of Vladimir's ridiculous threads about how the NPO won GWI. There he asserted that denying an overwhelming force seeking your utter destruction from carrying out that destruction is a "massive victory". Or does that standard not apply to us? I wouldn't be shocked, since everyone is so keen on applying other double-standards to us. The key point, however, is that we have not surrendered as the NPO did, and just because our ability to retaliate in-game has diminished does not mean that the war is over.

Yes, everything would just be shadow.

Actually, it's fairly relevant to this discussion, because Vox seems to have put forth as their new ideology nihilism, which is basically a belief in nothing (sort of hard to conceptualize, but meaning life and this world is a void without any objective truth or meaning).

As always you are trying to lay blankets statements where none apply. We have no "new ideology" because we had no "old ideology". Our one, basic tenant that I suppose you could call an ideology but that is more of a maxim is think for yourself. The views expressed by MegaAros or anyone, including myself, are individual views unless otherwise stated. We have thus far codified no central, unifying -ism or -ology and we probably won't any time in the foreseeable future.

But hey, don't let me stop you from being wrong. You never have before despite my sincerest efforts.

[American Clam]

o/ Vox

As long as there's a breath in Vox, NPO will never win this war.

[Geoffron X]

o/ Vox

As long as there's a breath in Vox, NPO will never win this war.

You call this a war? Please. It's a police action. FAN is more of a threat than you guys ever have been or will be.

[jer]

If they are such a non-entity why are you still bothering with them?

You continue to engage with them militarily and you're always weighing in on any OWF discussions involving them. These are not the actions of an alliance who isn't at all concerned or threatened by VP.

[Unko Kalaikz]

If they are such a non-entity why are you still bothering with them?

You continue to engage with them militarily and you're always weighing in on any OWF discussions involving them. These are not the actions of an alliance who isn't at all concerned or threatened by VP.

Like he said it's a police action. Vox Populi is being contained so that they never have a chance to become a threat, in the same manner a criminal is put into prison so he cannot do harm to the general public. Their radicalism (now in the form of destructive nihilism) is also a bit of a threat, as not responding to it intellectually gives the impression to some that it is unchallenged and therefore, correct.

[jer]

You've just provided a very decent explanation of why war is still being waged against Vox. And it clearly is war. Military operations to keep the other side down to prevent them from becoming more of a threat is war, not police action. Confronting the other side 'intellectually' in public at every opportunity in attempt to win the minds of others is a characteristic of war, not police action.

In recent days Vox has been dismissed as irrelevant, a minor irritation and even helpful to those with which it is at war. These dismissals are wholly inconsistent with the action that is being taken against them.

[enderland]

You've just provided a very decent explanation of why war is still being waged against Vox. And it clearly is war. Military operations to keep the other side down to prevent them from becoming more of a threat is war, not police action. Confronting the other side 'intellectually' in public at every opportunity in attempt to win the minds of others is a characteristic of war, not police action.

In recent days Vox has been dismissed as irrelevant, a minor irritation and even helpful to those with which it is at war. These dismissals are wholly inconsistent with the action that is being taken against them.

I'm glad someone else understands why the "vox is irrelevant" comments are so amusing.

[Vladimir]

We take the same military actions against individual rogues who seek to attack us, and we pay just as much attention here to individual trolls who verbally attack us (often much more attention depending on what they are saying). It isn't a commentary on their relevance. The former is basic military strategy and the latter is based on individual interest of certain subjects (surprisingly, NPO related subjects will usually be of interest to members of the NPO).

And as far as I go, I'd get into a debate with a rock if it had views on my work. In fact, a debate with a rock might be a stimulating step up from some of the debates I've had in the past.

Edited February 5, 2009 by Vladimir

[Schattenmann]

Vox's objective was and continues to be destruction of the ruling bloc and the creation of a 'fair' world (first through international law, now through 'balance'); the senate campaign was merely a part of that -- the attack on Vox that they lost their senate seat is to demonstrate their impotence, not to speak to the wider picture. A comparison there might be my attempt to get an inactive nuke heavy nation back into the fight against the coaluetion: I achieved that objective and got him into the fight, dealing a good amount of damage to the enemy, but my success in this is irrelevant to the wider picture. Regardless, as I have already pointed out, objectives had very little to do with my definition of victory. No. My logic for "Vox lost" is that they have been militarily slaughtered.

It goes a little deeper than that, by crushing Vox's nations the forces of peace have ensured that Vox are and never will be an in-game threat to peace and stability. Our strategy involves minimizing the damage Vox Populi can do and we have been highly successful at this, it's a sign of how pathetic their front is that they must resort to nihilism as their ideology (because they are beaten by all objective measures, as well as intellectually) and live in the past gloating in their petty has-been accomplishments instead of looking towards the future.

Vox Populi is equivalent to a shadow, it can scare small children but all a shadow is is an absence of light.

So Doitzel let me get this straight...

Because the NPO hasn't caused all of Vox to delete their nations and go away, you are winning the war? Interesting standards for war I must say. Congratulations, you are able to sign into your nations, collect and pay bills. Other than that, you have caused no real damage to the NPO aside from a brief stint in the Red Senate.

I thought your objective of this "war" was to drive your enemies into submission. that's not happening, so...yeah...I don't know how you can think you're winning anything in that regard...

If winning is removing the ability of your enemy to cause significant damage to your nation(s) then that is correct; Vox has lost (well I guess there are many in Vox who would disagree with that but effectively right now, they have lost).

The problem with every post above is that there is a basic lack of comprehension of Vox POpuli altogether.

Vlad wrote an extensive "examination" of Vox less than 48 hours after we were formed; he did not understand us then, and he still does not understand us now.

The rest think that Vox's fight is military because they entertain and stroke themselves with slackjawed peace mode and infrastructure jokes then can't hear anything over their own haw-haw-hawing. Picture a greasy-faced fat drunk guy in a Dungeons and Dragons tavern setting.

11 people--half with nations less than 3 days old at our declaration--had no intentions of "defeating" or subduing the power superstructure militarily. But what we did figure we could do was troll the piss out of them during the Coalition War. Even when 200+ more people figured that we 11 were cool enough to join, there was still no true military aspect. What did we do with 200 nations? Coordinate wars? Hell no, that subforum was the least active. We elected senators, a completely non-military action. We spammed people, a completely non-military action.

So why the Hell would anyone talk about Vox Populi's military? Because they're one of two types of minds: A mind that knows that all the rest are too stupid to understand a non-military fight so they frame it as a military fight, and the rest are the stupid ones that get manipulated and tell themselves peace mode jokes. Oh wait, I just outed a stratgey--we declared "war" (if you want to call 11 people with less than 100k NS fighting "war") at the same time we initiated forum pimp-slapping so the thin-skulls would understand what was going on.

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!! GGA, TRF, OG, Valhalla, NPO, ODN (lol, guys, still), and TGE (haw) I SALUTE YOU! All 3000 of you were able to bust up 200-300 of us. YOU DEFEATED US!!! We're disbanding next week after facing these astronomical odds for 5 months! Our nations, the only tools of our movement, have largely been ground to stubs! All is lost!!! As I drop below 300 infrastructure, my ability to post on the forum, spam nations, think, spy, and talk to other people on IRC is being quickly diminished!

Can there really be a shadow if there is no light?

You are the light that casts my shadow

[Branimir]

Our nations, the only tools of our movement, have largely been ground to stubs! All is lost!!! As I drop below 300 infrastructure, my ability to post on the forum, spam nations, think, spy, and talk to other people on IRC is being quickly diminished!

Well Schattenmann, I guess we can all agree that your determination and drive to continue to exist (which is only up to you and game staff) in defiance to those you see as enemies is a commendable character quality. I personally do not see it as success per say as existence in this game can be only denied by yourself (or game staff), but a character line of your movement.

Now, indeed that by classical CN understanding of warfare you are losing and by that badly. War is here primarily understood as the ability to use your in game strength to subdue the in game strength of your opponents, as that was (until your movement) the only recognized defining quality of war and the only type of war waged. As such you have to understand some comments coming from the CN community at large.

Now, you are trying to wage war not that much in traditional CN sense, but in your own sense and definition of it. It has some common ground to traditional warfare (as spying) but its more of a war for "hearts and minds", a political war then the tanks and guns war.

Now, the problem with that is, as already outlined, that this war in your sense which you are waging has some inherent problems with tangibility and as of yet lacks any significant result in regards to achieving your set goals.

So the quoted people you attacked for not understanding you (to dismiss their claims of your non success) do have a point in that they are asking what exactly did you did as of yet to harm the superstructure you are fighting, going by your means of war?

The superstructure is still where it was and your influence on it hardly recognizable if there is any. Your character line of determination is not yet accompanied by recognizable results of your jihad.

Edited February 5, 2009 by Branimir

[Kronuso]

Like he said it's a police action. Vox Populi is being contained so that they never have a chance to become a threat, in the same manner a criminal is put into prison so he cannot do harm to the general public. Their radicalism (now in the form of destructive nihilism) is also a bit of a threat, as not responding to it intellectually gives the impression to some that it is unchallenged and therefore, correct.

Destructive nihilism? That was what someone named Mobius preached and no one wanted it. It's almost like you are arguing with yourself here.

[Chunky Monkey]

Destructive nihilism? That was what someone named Mobius preached and no one wanted it. It's almost like you are arguing with yourself here.

Its junkalunka, hes not supposed to make sense.

[Unko Kalaikz]

Destructive nihilism? That was what someone named Mobius preached and no one wanted it. It's almost like you are arguing with yourself here.

silly rumors. Don't believe everything your enemies tell you.

In any case Mobius 1 from my research did not seem to be a nihilist of any sort, but instead seemed to be interested in splintering the power structure from a neo-francoist standpoint. I'm fairly sure he would be rolling in his grave if he knew that Vox Populi went from neo-moralism, something he simply disliked for its inconsistency, to this form of nihilism which I'm guessing he would have absolutely abhorred.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Count da Silva

[American Clam]

Either way it goes we're winning this war not militarily but psychologically. NPO isnt used to fighting its opponents without using brute force, but if you take away the brute force, then they're no better than anyone else.

[Kronuso]

Either way it goes we're winning this war not militarily but psychologically. NPO isnt used to fighting its opponents without using brute force, but if you take away the brute force, then they're no better than anyone else.

You can say that again. I have grown somewhat attached to my NPO opponents in this round by our exchanges in private messages. Maybe there is hope yet?

[Corinan]

Maybe there is hope yet?

No, there isn't.

[Kronuso]

No, there isn't.

Thanks for the giggle, Sweetie.

[New Frontier]

silly rumors. Don't believe everything your enemies tell you.

In any case Mobius 1 from my research did not seem to be a nihilist of any sort, but instead seemed to be interested in splintering the power structure from a neo-francoist standpoint. I'm fairly sure he would be rolling in his grave if he knew that Vox Populi went from neo-moralism, something he simply disliked for its inconsistency, to this form of nihilism which I'm guessing he would have absolutely abhorred.

To be fair, I don't think Vox (or anyone, really) gives a damn about what Junk does in his grave.

[Starfox101]

To be fair, I don't think Vox (or anyone, really) gives a damn about what Junk does in his grave.

He's the only person to be rejected by both sides.

So, you are correct.

[Melchior]

Very interesting read.