Diplomatic Department Communications to Saboria

[Uberstein]

OOC: Uberstein, don't forget my genetic-facility RPs. This thread is essentially the same, only adapted to an already-grown man and somewhat crazier than just catgirls or dogboys or whatever.

OOC: I had the impression you were doing it over generations, not instantly. If you were doing it instantly, I oppose it too.

[Lynneth]

OOC: I had the impression you were doing it over generations, not instantly. If you were doing it instantly, I oppose it too.

OOC: I was using age-acceleration to do that stuff, so in a way, yes, over generations. Did you actually read those posts?

[Uberstein]

OOC: I was using age-acceleration to do that stuff, so in a way, yes, over generations. Did you actually read those posts?

OOC: Barely, I was busy and took your word for it.

[Lynneth]

OOC: Barely, I was busy and took your word for it.

OOC: Blah. Just go read then when you have the time.

I'm wondering who actually *did* read them, because not a single person did complain.

[Triyun]

OOC: Shockingly I'm going to agree with Ubie here. This technology is way past "near future"

[Uberstein]

OOC: Shockingly I'm going to agree with Ubie here. This technology is way past "near future"

OOC:

This is shocking.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

ooc: People.. read.. for content? OMG! What an ingenious idea Lynneth! I never would have thought of it... no seriously. For doubters, if you want to know what we can ALREADY do.. simple go into google and type in gene alteration, gene modification, molecular biology.. and start reading scientific articles before you make a judgment on our role-play. I think humanity is far more advanced on an individual laboratory basis than what people give it credit for.. and this is only what we know and has been made available to be known on the internet. Who knows what lurks in some government cellar somewhere in a remote part of the world.

Re: Triyun:

Given the pace of the advancement of technology year over year. Consider Moore's Law. Consider the fact Saboria's technolgy is in like the 2023 and beyond range.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Uberstein]

ooc: People.. read.. for content? OMG! What an ingenious idea Lynneth! I never would have thought of it... no seriously. For doubters, if you want to know what we can ALREADY do.. simple go into google and type in gene alteration, gene modification, molecular biology.. and start reading scientific articles before you make a judgment on our role-play. I think humanity is far more advanced on an individual laboratory basis than what people give it credit for.. and this is only what we know and has been made available to be known on the internet. Who knows what lurks in some government cellar somewhere in a remote part of the world.

Re: Triyun:

Given the pace of the advancement of technology year over year. Consider Moore's Law. Consider the fact Saboria's technolgy is in like the 2023 and beyond range.

OOC: YOU are making the RP, YOU have the find the sources that allow you to do it. It's the same as formal debate, if you make the argument you back it up.

[King Kevz]

OOC: YOU are making the RP, YOU have the find the sources that allow you to do it. It's the same as formal debate, if you make the argument you back it up.

OOC: Im with Ubie on this if you can provide evidance to this then I might accept it.

[Il Terra Di Agea]

OOC: Ubie and Mael, you're both right, and wrong to a degree.

Scientist now have been able to use chemicals to stop and speed up growth of features in embryonic chickens (still in the egg). The technology is viewed to be step one in creating a dinosaur from scratch, because changing the chemicals and injecting them in different places has proven to do quite a few things, even prompt the chicken to grow extra tail bones, resulting in a much longer, dinosaur like tail, that is capable of functioning. Similar processes could be used to prompt some avatisms in the human body, such as growing a tail, or getting really damn hairy. The trick to it all is tricking the body into thinking the DNA is forming it in a way it doesn't intend, which then forces the DNA to comply, rather than kill it's self. By repeatedly doing this, and similar things, you could make a raptor out of a chicken, or an ape out of a man, but it would still take generation to make sure that the mutation takes.

Similarly, you are never going to make a human, or most any other mammal, grow a set of wings, or even replace their arms with wings. Humans do not have wings because in their evolutionary history, they used their limbs for other purposes besides flying. The ancestral tetrapod (the group that contains amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals) had four limbs and between the Devonian and the mid-Cenozoic era, our ancestors used all four limbs for walking. When monkeys appeared their front two limbs became modified for grasping the tree branches, and apes initiated a type of locomotion called brachiation (swinging under the tree branches with their forelimbs). There was no need to learn to fly and most apes and even monkeys were heavier and more solid-boned than most of the animals that did fly at that time. When people descended to the ground their hands became modified for grasping. Birds, bats and pterosaurs all use or used their forelimbs for flying, which meant their forelimbs had little or no grasping ability. However, they could compensate for this by entering other types of ecological niches.\

Mind you, over several generations of conditioning, you could force a mammal to grow scales with the proteins that would usually create hair, and maybe prompt the development of claws, but the more you mess with the DNA, the less it can take the changes. The whole problem with genetic engineering is that the DNA of a human, although made of the same pieces, is not the same as that of a lizard, or bird, or even an ape. When you mess with the DNA, things go wrong, and where/ when ever you are, that problem will persist. People have trouble holding on to organs from other people, let alone a completely a foreign DNA. Changes like these would usually require generations, even with direct reformatting to the DNA. It's also worth knowing that the change would be slow to spread and take (like cancer). The DNA can all change at once, but it takes a good while before the skin, bones, brain, and assorted other tissues will replace themselves with those containing the new DNA.

As for growing a set of extra wings, as another set of limbs, no. No animal has more than two sets of functioning limbs. It's a maximum complexity thing. The brain can only take so much stimuli at a time. A third set of functioning limbs would take a lot more brain power to run, considering the extra tissues and nerves. On top of that, to keep up a set of wings, the metabolism if the creature in question would go just short of a hummingbird. That much extra muscle mass/ nerve connection/ tissue upkeep would require a massive, protein and carbohydrate rich diet, require the creature to eat several large meals a day, consisting mostly of raw, red meat, and wheat bread. On top of that (quite a tower we've got going now) the lungs would have to greatly increase in size to keep an increased amount of blood oxidized, ad to keep the long extra limbs functioning. So, without major changes to the vascular system , digestive system, respiratory system, and muscle systems

So, in conclusion, is it impossible? Yes. Is it possible over generations, when using high technology? Probably. Is it a completely merit less idea? Not even a little. It's hard to predict the technology we'll have access to in the future, but in the next hundred years, I doubt we'll be able to do most of what you say, Mael. Once again, I say let the show go on, but keep in mind the real life restrictions to the matter.

Thank you for your time. I'll shut up now.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Il Terra Di Agea

[Maelstrom Vortex]

OOC: YOU are making the RP, YOU have the find the sources that allow you to do it. It's the same as formal debate, if you make the argument you back it up.

ooc: I'm wondering when this went from RP to, "you must have a PHD to do anything" Perhaps to use nuclear weapons or halfnium the same argument should be applied and if you're not a nuclear physicist in CNRP you're not allowed therefore to have nukes because you can't tell the folks the devil in the details of how they work.

I asked for the technology limit I would need to meet to do this. It was given. I found a nation with that tech capability. I went to it. There have been several threads on this subject by myself and this nation to found a basis for it. I researched how the different biological apparatuses would work and I know enough of genetics, nanotetchnology, and virology to know this is plausible.. even possibly within our lifetimes.. (and mine is 1/3 gone already). You guys need to get your noses out of CNRP and check out discovery, science channels, and some popular science magazines.. other sources of reliable information on the advancement of technology. If you did that, the evidence of the potential for this is there. I am not going to put hours of my life into proving this point unless you're going to pay me for it. It can be done with time, money, and properly directed research. This is my last ooc statement to this regard.

Again, I'm not sure people are even sure of what we're doing. We're using custom engineered viruses to re-structure the genetic blueprints of the cells int he body. The viruses do not replicate, they simply put information in the targeted cells. Catalysts and enzymes then act to make the cells conform to the new instructions. In the event new structures need to be made, farmed stem-cells are used. There's even talk of using stem-cells to treat parkinsons disease and to replace damaged tissues. Viruses may even one day be used to treat cancer. If you tie it in with nanomachines, there's a lot that can be done on a body that is alive, not just over generations.. but the current existing format.

The basis for the new genetic structure is the host's old genetic code, with additions and modifications. It is not highly likely a rejection will occur especially when the immune system is targeted for re-write first.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Maelstrom Vortex]

OOC: Some current technology info.. the remarkable things we are doing:

Year testing began 2004: Curing cancer with a virus?

Year of Article 2007:

Proof redesigning specific parts of a body is a current science. Conjecture in the article noted 1-2 years to develop a self-replicating bio-synthetic organism.. likely a crop.

There are books on this topic and they're not in the fiction section.

DNA is so re-writable theoretical computer systems are being built on it. This has been under study and evaluation since 1994.

One company is researching active editing techniques that can change the structure of any gene in the human genome sequence.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Uberstein]

OOC: You don't have to have a PHD, I'm just asking the VERY SIMPLE question of "what is your source?". No need to get indignant.

Also, you can't create something NEW from human stem cells, and by new I mean you can't make a monkey turn into a lizard. None of your sources have shown that. You can repair damaged cells back to human form, you might be able to make people stronger, you can cure diseases, but when you start to try and give them wings, scales, and turn them into a dragon because you were not allowed to back when you started the RP, I call BS.

As for the halfnium, I stopped useing them when it was proven that they didn't work. I got rid of my mechs when they didn't work. I don't need to explain the nuclear bomb because we KNOW it works. I attempt to find a source for all my work.

Edited February 9, 2009 by BaronUberstein

[Maelstrom Vortex]

OOC: You don't have to have a PHD, I'm just asking the VERY SIMPLE question of "what is your source?". No need to get indignant.

Also, you can't create something NEW from human stem cells, and by new I mean you can't make a monkey turn into a lizard. None of your sources have shown that. You can repair damaged cells back to human form, you might be able to make people stronger, you can cure diseases, but when you start to try and give them wings, scales, and turn them into a dragon because you were not allowed to back when you started the RP, I call BS.

ooc: They are not turning into a dragon. They are turning into a human based genetic construct. Note we hit technical limitations on wings. You do not have to repair damaged cells, you simply need to replace them, and that's simple enough, you let them replicate using natural healing processes as they do over time. If the human body or any organic body could not repair themselves, then every minor cut would be a life threatening injury. Theoretically, if you edit genetic structures you have at your disposal any natural organic system/structure available in the biosphere to work with. You simply have to ensure they're going to work together without destroying each other. Since almost all life forms on earth share 98% of the same basic dna structures, this likely wouldn't be all that hard. I could get even more sources if I wanted.. the ones above are just the tip of the ice berg on one or two searches. I've done part of the footwork, but I am not obligated to nor capable of educating you about everything that's happening in the world of science.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Uberstein]

OOC: Okay, so you're making a lizard-man, still impossible with modern science.

And you don't seem to get it, YOU are presenting the argument that you can do this, YOU need to prove that you can do this or we have no reason to accept your RP and it means we can make our own armies of deadly lizardmen in powerarmor who ride lizard-horses.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

ooc: I am not presenting the argument that I can do it. I am presenting the argument that Saboria with its massive technology and my mad Scienticst Dr.Karnell.. educated and supported by them, are capable of doing this. This has nothing to do with the Dragon Empire's personal research capabilities and is all about theirs (Saboria). It does not mean you can create armies of these creatures as this is a unique situation. It is not going to be replicated save for once, for his wife, and right now it is believed the costs involved are to significant to do this on a mass scale. This is one of the very reasons I was permitted to even go forward with this rp. The recognition that this process isn't easily and cost efficiently mass-reproduced. It is on the very edge of science.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Kaiser Martens]

OOC: LOL dude, most... <insert degrading adjective) idea ever.

Let it go.

[Uberstein]

OOC: NOBODY can do this! I don't care if you have a mad doctor and billions of dollars of funding, this is like Frankenstein, pure fiction and not suited for CNRP. You don't get it, you cannot take the human genome and turn it into a reptile because we never had reptile in us. Agea made a very well written post about this.

[Lynneth]

OOC: Suggestion: Mod/GM-decision?

[Maelstrom Vortex]

ooc: He did indeed. He indicated that Reptile and Mammal DNA are highly Divergent. This is correct. This does not mean that Reptile and Human chromosome structures are incompatible; if they were they would not have been able to evolve from the same source nor would the history of their evolution converge when traversed from current to past.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Maelstrom Vortex]

OOC: Suggestion: Mod/GM-decision?

OOC: I sought an advance ruling from HK47 on this issue.

[Uberstein]

OOC: Okay then, so you would have to go back along the entire evolutionary past back to the days of slime, then go back forward, that is also BS for the tech level you're working with.

And I want to see proof of said ruling.

Edited February 9, 2009 by BaronUberstein

[Il Terra Di Agea]

ooc: He did indeed. He indicated that Reptile and Mammal DNA are highly Divergent. This is correct. This does not mean that Reptile and Human chromosome structures are incompatible; if they were they would not have been able to evolve from the same source nor would the history of their evolution converge when traversed from current to past.

OOC: To butt in again, I think that you're misinterpreting me a bit. Humans evolved from reptiles, but you can't really make a person into a reptile with their life. You could prompt hair to grow over the body with one generation, and then in the next, alter some systems to make that hair grow as a hard disk, rather that a little thread, but it would take a lot of work to make a human into a lizard... thing.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Month 5. The major structural changes to Maelstrom were complete. He slowly was roused from his slumber. He would stay in the chamber an additional month for monitoring. They were making sure his evolved state would function viably. Most of the tubes and ducts and inserts, save for an intravenous tube were removed. For food he would now come to the top of the tank and eat what was provided. He began to exercise in the tank to re-condition his muscles from their somewhat atrophied states. He would have one month of conditioning and observation before he would be allowed out into the lab's living quarters. He would still need to stay in the lab for several more months for monitoring.. again, to ensure nothing overly unexpected arises that causes a need for additional treatment.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

OOC: To butt in again, I think that you're misinterpreting me a bit. Humans evolved from reptiles, but you can't really make a person into a reptile with their life. You could prompt hair to grow over the body with one generation, and then in the next, alter some systems to make that hair grow as a hard disk, rather that a little thread, but it would take a lot of work to make a human into a lizard... thing.

ooc: Yes, yes it would take a lot of hard work.. a lot of viruses, catalysts, enzymes... and a very specially contained treatment center and method. Oh wait. The body sheds a layer of skin ever so many days in reality. If the newly reproduced cells are corresponding to new genetic instructions it would not be out of the question to cause them to replace standard skin with scale. In fact, scaly skin is actually a disease in humans. There's also the cases of the alligator men that have genetic oddities that cause them to grow scales and they are completely viable. I think you need to re-evaluate your thought on this. I mean, there's a lot of things that can happen when genes are altered. Ever heard of the "tree man?"

RE: Uberstein

ooc: He said I could strive for something between Argonians (think morrowind) and human. That's what I'm shooting for.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex