The Real Legion Story of GW3

[TrotskysRevenge]

Oh, as opposed to your brilliant diplomacy...let's ask for a treaty with anyone on the first meeting just to see if they do.

I KILLED CN!

I thought we killed CN.

[Simon De Montfort]

I would like to make a request that Swampy include some inside details on an event that involved me at the conclusion of the Unjust War. There are some details regarding it that I would like to be made aware of.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Simon De Montfort

[maladieshie]

I remember this time, it was absolutely amazing and utterly horrifying at the same time. I remember the GATO vote and beign torn in two directions, absolutely furious at the fact that things hadn't followed the process they should and wishing we could just get rid of it because we weren't reading from the same page us anymore and it was going to get us into a war we didn't want.

For those who don't know the originating factor GB recruited heavily from N S for The Legion such as myself, Longbowe, Waterana, Nutty Carrot Cakes and Contradictory_Views. I'd also learnt to greatly like and respect VL for his work in The Legion so it was with great sadness that I read of their exile, though that point if memory serves GB had fallen into near inactivity (or atleast in comparison to what he used to be). I remember leaving The Legion towards the end of the war after witnessing a good friend of mine publicly eviscerated for misinterpreting an order. I realised then that the alliance I'd entered wasn't really there anymore and moved to valhalla in the hopes that some of the finer qualities of The Legion would endure there.

(I realise some of these comment probably belong in episode I and hope no-one minds )

Edited January 29, 2009 by maladieshie

[WorldConqueror]

Those who are complaining that the NPO was gunning for the Legion at that time would do well to remember the reasons behind it. Do you think it would have been reasonable for us to just forget the betrayal committed by the Legion in the GPW?

[Haflinger]

Those who are complaining that the NPO was gunning for the Legion at that time would do well to remember the reasons behind it. Do you think it would have been reasonable for us to just forget the betrayal committed by the Legion in the GPW?

I don't think people are complaining here; more trying to explain the reasons why the Legion made the decisions it did. Which were admittedly foolish in many cases.

I find myself slightly less bewildered as a result of reading these posts. Growing up as a newbie in post-GWIII Purple, outside of The Legion, everything always seemed to be kinda nutty. Now at least I know some more of the reasons why.

[Bad JuJu]

What ended up happening was the Initiative propaganda machine used that GLOCK treaty to accessorize their smear campaign against the Legion by claiming we 'broke' a non-aggression pact. Plain and simple, that was a load of crap ...

Admit it swampy, you're jealous of our propaganda machine!

An example of our first rate propaganda circa GW3. I know, it's not much compared to the masterpieces created today but we were a simpler people living in a simpler time. We were mesmerized by it because the picture actually moved!

Edited January 29, 2009 by Bad JuJu

[Bad JuJu]

Those who are complaining that the NPO was gunning for the Legion at that time would do well to remember the reasons behind it. Do you think it would have been reasonable for us to just forget the betrayal committed by the Legion in the GPW?

You guys have a persecution complex.

Wait, dont tell me, they betrayed you and were plotting for your downfall

Edited January 29, 2009 by Bad JuJu

[Lincongrad]

I thought we killed CN.

Cooperative effort?

[WorldConqueror]

You guys have a persecution complex.

Wait, dont tell me, they betrayed you and were plotting for your downfall

Heh, more classic stupidity from FAN. In case you don't know, we held a MDP with them, which they proceeded to ignore and jump on the bandwagon to attack us. If that's not betrayal, I don't know what is. Of course, I realise you're just here to try and score some points, but please, try harder.

Also, I must apologise, I forgot that any mention of the GPW is the cue for massive derailment. Carry on.

[Simon De Montfort]

Those who are complaining that the NPO was gunning for the Legion at that time would do well to remember the reasons behind it. Do you think it would have been reasonable for us to just forget the betrayal committed by the Legion in the GPW?

Well I knew you guys were gunning for the Legion at the time (end of GWI to end of GWII) despite what your leaders were saying. My only complaint is that after GW III with the Legion bruised, battered and humbled the NPO wasn't satisfied.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Simon De Montfort

[Doitzel]

Well I knew you guys were gunning for the Legion at the time (end of GWI to end of GWII) despite what your leaders were saying. My only complaint is that after GW III with the Legion bruised, battered and humbled the NPO wasn't satisfied.

Heh. I remember getting verbally mauled for suggesting we should give Legion and GATO a rest as we'd been chomping at the bit for 8 months and gotten ample revenge. *sigh*

[kerschbs]

To be honest...I do blame SG for ruining VX. Conversations like those contained in those logs happened between gov leaders all the time. Hell I had them all the time...with people on both sides of the web. VincentXander was a good man, a good leader, who did many GOOD things for GATO and SG basically RUINED him with those logs.

VX didn't deserve what he got IMO.

Very true.

[WorldConqueror]

Also, I think this quote nicely sums up NPO feelings towards the Legion after the betrayal:

"For a wounded man shall say to his assailant, "If I Live, I will kill you, If I Die, You are forgiven." Such is the Rule of Honor."

[Lord Swampy]

Heh, more classic stupidity from FAN. In case you don't know, we held a MDP with them, which they proceeded to ignore and jump on the bandwagon to attack us. If that's not betrayal, I don't know what is. Of course, I realise you're just here to try and score some points, but please, try harder.

Also, I must apologise, I forgot that any mention of the GPW is the cue for massive derailment. Carry on.

Maybe you're a reroll who was around back then and forgot your history. Maybe you weren't in the know then. Or maybe you just weren't around then and never actually learned this. There was no MDP between the Legion and NPO. If I've put to bed one Legion myth in this thread already about treaties and what they were and were not, I might as well address a second. Here is the text of the Imperial Accords, Legion's agreement with NPO.

An alliance between the nations of the Legion and the New Pacific Order

Preamble

In recognition that both the Legion and the New Pacific Order are committed to the continued prosperity and development of their respective member nations, we, the assembled members of both alliances resolve to enter into this alliance between our two bodies in the belief that said agreement will further the causes to which we cling.

Article I

This alliance will be in effect immediately and unto perpetuity unless either side terminates said alliance or either side participates, or has member nations participate, in military action against member nations of the other signatory body. If either alliance terminates this agreement they will inform the alternate side at least four days before carrying out any activity against the previous partnered alliance unless the reason for termination is overt military action from the counter signed alliance.

Article II

The alliance will act as predetermined authorization from both parties to formally request assistance in any war against any unsigned alliance or nation. Each treatied alliance has the option to refuse said request but can not use said refusal as means of breaking the alliance outside the normal means determined in Article I.

Article III

The New Pacific Order and the Legion recognize the need for selective protection in regards to the security and well being of member nations. To that end the signatory alliances agree to share intelligence that is determined to be detrimental in nature to the well being of either alliance. The sharing of said alliance will be handled strictly via formal diplomatic channels.

Conclusion:

This alliance is entered into Law for both signatory parties.

Signed for the New Pacific Order:

THIRD ALLIANCE COUNCIL OF THE NPO

Moscovy

Sei Pistole

John Kirkland

Rysonia

EMPEROR OF THE NEW PACIFIC ORDER

IVAN MOLDAVI

Signed for the Legion:

Great Britain of great britain-, Founder and President

The Great Bear of Druid, Prime Minister

ChatNoir of Terra de Chat, Defense Minister

Silas of Zunea, Foreign Minister

DaveyG of Alba, Home Secretary

Lord Swampy of New Kaynistan, Director of Intelligence

I bolded the part where it is clearly not an MDP, but an ODP. Now, to an extent this is just semantics. I've directly seen evidence of communications between the Legion and NPO from that time that would give NPO reason to believe that the Legion was going to come to their aid in the war. Looking back knowing all I know today, I understand why they thought that and I moreover I understand why we should have fought by NPO's side against the bandwaggoners who attacked NPO. Would have/should have/could haves aside, the Legion was categorically NOT a bandwaggon alliance, as WorldConquerer and so many others have said. Bandwaggoning is the practice of jumping into a war without any connection to the involved parties and merely taking an opportunistic shot at an alliance you don't like without justification. The Legion had no intentions to fight against NPO in the Great War; heck, from the internal content I've seen Legion didn't really have the intention to fight in GW1 at all. That was until we saw logs of NPO's government channel as I explained in Episode I of my memoirs. We had a CB. It's been debated over and over and over for years and I won't start down that particular road here, but we absolutely weren't bandwaggoning, and again, it was an ODP and not an MDP. The 'O' is for 'optional.'

And Simon, you'll have some questions answered, but it won't be in the next Episode; you'll likely feature in Episode IV.

[Doitzel]

Also, I think this quote nicely sums up NPO feelings towards the Legion after the betrayal:

"For a wounded man shall say to his assailant, "If I Live, I will kill you, If I Die, You are forgiven." Such is the Rule of Honor."

I like how you ignore that Legion had already been brought to its knees and forced to surrender in a war the Order called Retribution for good reason. They had paid their debts, but certain factions within the Order that have now become dominant did not want to let it go.

also lol, you weren't even here. Funny that you're pulling the "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE!!" card.

[WorldConqueror]

Interesting, I have not seen this defense before from any Legion member ever. In any case, whether it was an ODP or an MDP, the Legion still broke it, according to Article I. Plus, as you said, the NPO was led to believe that the Legion would be helping them in the war. When you are under attack from all sides, and your treaty partner says they'll help you out, then turns around and does the complete opposite by attacking you, that's betrayal.

[WorldConqueror]

I like how you ignore that Legion had already been brought to its knees and forced to surrender in a war the Order called Retribution for good reason. They had paid their debts, but certain factions within the Order that have now become dominant did not want to let it go.

also lol, you weren't even here. Funny that you're pulling the "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE!!" card.

Um, OK Doitz, whatever. Since you apparently know what I was talking about better than I do, I'll just explain to everyone else here how your post is so very wrong. The quote that I posted was in relation to the period of the GPW and Legion's betrayal, nothing after that, certainly not the post-GWIII situation. So bad luck there.

And yeah, I wasn't here, so what? Does that prevent me from reading about and understanding what happened? Obviously, since you're in Vox you'll say something like "Yeah, but you're in the NPO, so you're a brainwashed drone". In which case I will scurry off to my masters to receive a witty comeback to post.

Finally, I have no idea what you are talking about with the "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE!!" card. Care to explain?

[Demag]

Interesting, I have not seen this defense before from any Legion member ever. In any case, whether it was an ODP or an MDP, the Legion still broke it, according to Article I.

If either alliance terminates this agreement they will inform the alternate side at least four days before carrying out any activity against the previous partnered alliance unless the reason for termination is overt military action from the counter signed alliance.

They didn't break it considering a Declaration of War is what I would consider overt military action.

Plus, as you said, the NPO was led to believe that the Legion would be helping them in the war. When you are under attack from all sides, and your treaty partner says they'll help you out, then turns around and does the complete opposite by attacking you, that's betrayal.

Lord Swampy didn't say it wasn't he said it was semantics and that the Legion should of fought with the NPO.

As a member of the Legion at the time this fascinating especially due to the way the The Legion-NPO Barfight happened and wondering what was happening.

Edit: Not sure if I'm reading the treaty right... Is the counter-signed alliance in this case be the NPO in regards to the Barfight?

Edited January 29, 2009 by Demag

[Hymenbreach]

Even before Purplegate we were debating going to NPO for ways to heal the wound. We (well some) wanted to draw a line under it by making a public apology or some other act of contrition. Well, we debated (what else) and Purplegate happened.

Whatever. I hope those wounds are safely healed now. I don't think there is a person in the Legion who hates the NPO now, not even secretly and we don't have a bar on the sentiment, it just isn't there. I barely think there are three members in the Legion who were even there during the 'Hot War' period of the NPO-Legion conflict (in the larger scale).

[Lord Swampy]

Heh. This was definitely conversation for the first Episode, when GW1 was a topic in the OP. Oh well.

If I were to look at this treaty with an objective eye (something I can't quite honestly claim I can always do with this), I'd have to read that per Article 1, the Legion should have cancelled the treaty before attacking. Let's work through this together so we can all learn.

If either alliance (in this case Legion) terminates this agreement they will inform the alternate side (NPO) at least four days before carrying out any activity (war) against the previous partnered alliance (NPO) unless the reason for termination (perceived plot in NPO government against Legion) is overt military action (war) from the counter-signed alliance (NPO).

The key here is bolded, "overt." Overt can be defined as "adj. Open and observable; not hidden, concealed, or secret." The reason for the Legion's action against NPO was covert planning by NPO, not overt action. That one little letter makes all the difference. Based on this literal reading, the Legion broke their ODP with NPO per Article 1, NOT per Article 2. Let me be clear: I'm not making any statement right now about what Legion should have done, could have done, or what they might do if they could go back and change things. I'm talking about what the government said, did, and thought at the time. It's worth noting I wasn't actually IN government in Legion during that war, and what my information about that government comes from documents and conversations I was able to dig back through and read myself as well as information from Reformentia's memoirs and grand anthology of the Legion's early relationship with the Orders.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Lord Swampy

[Demag]

Confusing wording is confusing.

But yeah, I rescind my comment about Legion not breaking the Treaty.

[WorldConqueror]

If either alliance (in this case Legion) terminates this agreement they will inform the alternate side (NPO) at least four days before carrying out any activity (war) against the previous partnered alliance (NPO) unless the reason for termination (perceived plot in NPO government against Legion) is overt military action (war) from the counter-signed alliance (NPO).

The key here is bolded, "overt." Overt can be defined as "adj. Open and observable; not hidden, concealed, or secret." The reason for the Legion's action against NPO was covert planning by NPO, not overt action. That one little letter makes all the difference. Based on this literal reading, the Legion broke their ODP with NPO per Article 1, NOT per Article 2.

This was exactly my reasoning too. And I agree with Demag, the wording was quite confusing.

Also, perceived covert planning

[Demag]

This was exactly my reasoning too. And I agree with Demag, the wording was quite confusing.

Also, perceived covert planning

And they say the MDP web was less complicated back then

Speaking as a noob when I was in the Legion. I don't remember any anti-GATO sentiment but I do remember the calls for impeachment but it does explain stuff.

[Matthijs]

I liked this thread (and its predecessor) so much, it made me create a nation so I can legally reply to it.

These were good times. I was in \m/ during GW II and III, so we were a minor ally of the NPO, you could say. It was a lot of fun. I don't know how the others felt, but I had the idea that we were almost untouchable at the time. GW II was a blast. GW III was better, because it gave the final satisfaction: the assurance that they could never beat us, not even with The Legion in there.

I didn't stick around to see the final split in the Initiative and GW IV. During the war with FAN, I went on holiday and forgot to have someone sit my nation. I was getting bored anyway, so I deleted it and got a life. I tried to make a comeback on two occasions, but my heart wasn't into it. I don't know if I'll do anything with this account either. I don't like my resources.

Maybe some day I'll also be vain enough to write "memoirs" or some such. I was around since March 2006 after all. But I should hurry, I doubt anyone now still remembers who I am, nevermind in a few months.

Edit: I already got invites to alliances within 15 minutes. What's the fun of this game for a newbie? TDO, NATO, GLoF, TOOL and UPN. UPN offer 3 million big ones. Hmm.

Edited January 31, 2009 by Matthijs

[WarriorConcept]

I liked this thread (and its predecessor) so much, it made me create a nation so I can legally reply to it.

These were good times. I was in \m/ during GW II and III, so we were a minor ally of the NPO, you could say. It was a lot of fun. I don't know how the others felt, but I had the idea that we were almost untouchable at the time. GW II was a blast. GW III was better, because it gave the final satisfaction: the assurance that they could never beat us, not even with The Legion in there.

I didn't stick around to see the final split in the Initiative and GW IV. During the war with FAN, I went on holiday and forgot to have someone sit my nation. I was getting bored anyway, so I deleted it and got a life. I tried to make a comeback on two occasions, but my heart wasn't into it. I don't know if I'll do anything with this account either. I don't like my resources.

Maybe some day I'll also be vain enough to write "memoirs" or some such. I was around since March 2006 after all. But I should hurry, I doubt anyone now still remembers who I am, nevermind in a few months.

Edit: I already got invites to alliances within 15 minutes. What's the fun of this game for a newbie? TDO, NATO, GLoF, TOOL and UPN. UPN offer 3 million big ones. Hmm.

I remember you