New environment effect

[Bob Janova]

This is ... overly drastic, in my opinion. Environment should have a noticeable effect, but what we have now is ridiculous.

this update basically destroys any nation with a -1 environment trade resource. Who wants to trade, when the resource will lead to a 16 point drop in happiness?

Indeed – it's better to leave the trade slot open than import coal, oil or uranium now. If something even approaching this change is to stick, the -1 penalties for importing those resources must be removed, or any nation with them might as well re-roll.

[trinit]

ok, so yeah, this is nasty. But what about those who make $20 donations monthly.

this sort of is leak stealing isnt it? we base our nation at a point, and make donations to increase. then all of a sudden boom... woops there goes 40 bucks... wait... there goes another 20...

wth?

[BigNastyPSU]

Yep, I'm bill locked now too.

[King Gerry]

I dunno. Wait a day. See what admin does.

Am I the only one this hasn't affected that bad?

I mean sure I only have:

Technology: 2,426.86

Infrastructure: 4,629.99

Area of Influence: 4,016.333 mile diameter.

Environment: 4.19

Number of Nuclear Weapons: 2

Your soldier count is at 71%.

But I mean; Estimated clear income: $2,537,975.58 (62% of your whole income)

Sure I've lost about $2m a day clear income, but thats nothing for me to moan about.

I don't need it personally, but I'm sure others do.

My estimated clear (thankfully I collected before this update went in) went from ~$4.5 Mil to ~ $2.6 Mil

That and I have oil and coal as base resources.... I can see my trades going bye bye any minute now.

Edited May 19, 2008 by King Gerry

[finneys13]

And I am sure you will love having to aid it all to the nations in your alliances ruined by it.

No problem doing so, I am a generous !@#$%^&

[Sheldomar]

If this update opens the door to more Improvements that improve Happiness, Population Income, or Environment, then it may not end up so bad... still, the fact that I instantly lost around 16-17 points of Happiness instantly was a bit of an unhappy shock... (edit: this has been restored with the update of the update....)

Buying a fifth Border Wall increased my happiness significantly (5 points total), but the population loss still made it a big negative hit on my income, so it'll be getting torn down soon...

But at least I'm not in bill-lock! And if that's the case, then maybe this has, in a left-handed way, made me more powerful than my peers....

Edited May 20, 2008 by Sheldomar

[Van Hoo III]

I don't mind the change and it does make sense ... but I think it still needs tinkered with as it is far too drastic of a change.

[Willaim Kreiger]

Get some aid in the short term.

Half of Bob that is big enough to send aid is bill locked.

I realize this has been said before but this update ruins the game. Let me give you a few reasons why before you brush it off and say 'omg adapt pls'.

1. Nations were given no warning. There are hundreds of not thousands of nations out there who have suddenly been given 0 warning that something like this was going to happen and are now in bill lock. Decom nukes? Okay, sure, and lose a huge chunk of NS. No one wants to decom nukes, that is part of the build up in this game, to someday be able to get your hands on a nuclear weapon, I spent 500 days trying to get my first one and there's no way in hell I will decom it, I'd rather delete.

2. Older players that actually participate in the politics that make this game fun are screwed. They are the ones hit hardest by this and they are the ones driving politics in this game. Keeping this update will inevitably result in a large exodus of players who have been building their nations for 2 years and suddenly wake up to find they are making -14 million dollars a day. Are you going to sell off 6000 infrastructure and all your nukes so you can still play?

3. Newer players are hit just as hard. I agree with slowing down the inflation of new players in this game but come on, new nations are going to start out bill-locked. Anyone who doesn't have a friend playing somewhere in this game is just going to quit out of sheer frustration. What is the point of a game where you make negative income from day one??

Just my thoughts on the issue. Sure making the environment a part of the game is nice, but come on, this is ridiculous.

[shayde]

From the start I knew this would not be a popular update and I expect to see many threads like this and many PM complaints. My response... bring it on. Environment was a feature that had a lot of potential in the game and now that potential is better realized with this update.

If that was the case, it was mighty shortsighted to not give us ANY means to really improve our environments. You should have added recycling centers or other ways to improve our nation's environment.

The city walls are actually worse now that you changed it to +1.. so you lose any benefit from those.

I lost over 8000 population and my happiness went from 56 to TWELVE. There is NOTHING I can do about it. I have no nukes. I have no recourse here.

[LJ Scott]

That and I have oil and coal as base resources.... I can see my trades going bye bye any minute now.

My lead is looking pretty nice now

I mean by switching out uranium in a 3 bonus circle (i.e. beer/fast food/construction) to my lead, and thus gaining +$3 income from scholars aswell people will do pretty well. I bet my trade partners like me now

[Bob Janova]

Starting new players off in bill lock is, to be honest, a joke. But I'm sure the impact will be toned down, I can't believe Admin actually meant to bill lock a load of people in standard peacetime setups

[King Gerry]

If something else were to be added, like recycling centers or some other improvement to balance this out it wouldn't suck as much, but it still sucks.

[greenansatsu]

I dunno. Wait a day. See what admin does.

Am I the only one this hasn't affected that bad?

I mean sure I only have:

Technology: 2,426.86

Infrastructure: 4,629.99

Area of Influence: 4,016.333 mile diameter.

Environment: 4.19

Number of Nuclear Weapons: 2

Your soldier count is at 71%.

But I mean; Estimated clear income: $2,537,975.58 (62% of your whole income)

Sure I've lost about $2m a day clear income, but thats nothing for me to moan about.

The reason you weren't affected

-2 nukes

your tech to infra ratio is insanely high

your land to infra ratio is insanely high.

your natural environment is high 4.19 i'm guessing you don't have BW. If i buy 5 BW i get my happiness back to where it was and i still have lost 10,000 citizens. There are nations who because they lost 20k citizens can't buy new improvements, or if they do they'd have to get rid of 25+ to get 5 BW.

The idea of this suggestion was good the actual use of it was horrible. The formula is messed up. Nations have been put instantly into bill lock. they are losing a 1m+ daily with this, at max they can get 18 aid if they have 6 open slots. that'll help them for a while but unless they can get perfect environment they are screwed.

PLUS the one thing that no one has mentions what happens in the case of a big nuclear war when GR gets back up to the sixes? Every nation in the game could be potentially put into bill lock at once, and there would be nothing they could do about it.

[shayde]

This is ... overly drastic, in my opinion. Environment should have a noticeable effect, but what we have now is ridiculous.

Indeed – it's better to leave the trade slot open than import coal, oil or uranium now. If something even approaching this change is to stick, the -1 penalties for importing those resources must be removed, or any nation with them might as well re-roll.

Which means anyone with jewelry is screwed. Suddenly the trade circle four is a complete liability instead of just being slightly gimped.

[Commisar Gaunt]

Let's just concede that this was one of those suggestions looked better on paper than it performed in practice.

Brb, making negative income

[Khyber]

This has not affected me, however I'm against it for 2 reasons.

1) It makes the already best trade grouping that gives you fast food, beer, and construction with fish and gems, even better, as it doesn't use coal, oil, and lead in the equation. I have coal but have ff, beer and construction, so I'm really not that affected, I just hope my trade circle sticks by me. Thd drastically widens up the gap between an already major disadvantage for nations that just happened to roll bad resources when they started. Now I'm going to run over any nation that isn't set up right in trades, even if it had more infra and tech then me. Trades should have been fixed long before this implementation.

2) Anarchy is now even worse, dropping your citizen count along with a drop in bills. Meaning dropping the number of soldiers you can buy, and helping ensure that even if you had a warchest, if your attackers had the same infra as you, you'll always be weaker then them. Sure, warchests are important but I didn't think the penalty for anarchy should be this sever, and limit the number of soldiers you can get, especially since an update blitz can often garentee anarchy if you happen to miss that update. I make the occasional update, but I don't agree with this since I know a good deal of people that can't.

Why do you feel that furture punishing people for getting bad reasources from the start is nessessary? And why do you wish to make the already difficult task of getting out of anarchy even harder? Just because you want enviroment to be more relavent doesn't mean this was the right way to go about it.

I would have fixed the resources first, allowing a drastic advantage to coal, oil, lead and other penalty enviroment resources to buy a good deal of infra, and generate some kind of money bonus. And I would make every citizen pay a polution tax straight off before you pay bills, meaning less taxes collected. I would never have dropped the citizen count. This would mean a nation in Anarchy without a warchest can buy less soldiers, tanks and CMs and what not every day, meaning they can do less damage to their opponent (although I still don't think this is nessessary, but oh well), but give it the same chance to get out of it as they would have had if they had a warchest.

[Robertraccoon]

My now that my anger is residing I guess I will capitalize on it. I have water, thats going to go for a lot now even with fur as a secondary resource.

[ChileRelleno]

Hmmmm... I'd say this may have been a little overboard on the effects it is having.

This has cost me considerably, -7,000 citizens/-7 Improv slots, I'll have to acquire another 700 Infra to make up for it... That is screwed up.

Kevin, really mano, ya wanna fix something, make something more realistic?... The fix the dagblasted War System, its seriously screwed up.

.......................................

Anyways, I'll try to speak louder with my wallet... Not one more donation will I make.

Edited May 19, 2008 by ChileRelleno

[AirMe]

Buying 5 border walls brought my income back up to what it was before he made this change. When I didn't have those borderwalls I was down 98 dollars per cit. per day.

Now not everyone has the improvement slots to do this. This is a terrible change. Too severe. I to think environment should mean something.....but it shouldn't be the focus of the game.

EDIT: Said border walls instead of labor camps. God im tired.

Edited May 19, 2008 by AirMe

[Great Lord Moth]

From the start I knew this would not be a popular update and I expect to see many threads like this and many PM complaints. My response... bring it on. Environment was a feature that had a lot of potential in the game and now that potential is better realized with this update.

THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU

I've been waiting for this to happen forever.

[LJ Scott]

The reason you weren't affected

-2 nukes

your tech to infra ratio is insanely high

your land to infra ratio is insanely high.

your natural environment is high 4.19 i'm guessing you don't have BW.

I believe (DAC) wanted to see more skill in how we went about building our nations.

The fact I have gone out and built those two nice ratios, created a good trade circle and stuck with my native lead, have been somewhat rewarded by the fact that I haven't been effected as much. I mean sure I lost half my daily income, but I'm no where near bill lock. And thats with too muc military and 5 LC's.

Edit: Forgot Im at war too

Edited May 19, 2008 by LJ Scott

[MSGKlemer]

Personally this update is a big ruin. I just donated 20 bucks and 10 bucks for a friend. So with the update my recent donation turned to crap. So no more donations coming out of my wallet.

I donated for a few reasons:

1. to support something with great ideas and unique in online play

2. to help grow my nation because i dont have time to fully plan out my growth

3. because if i can waste 20bucks on a carton of smokes i can waste that on a good online game that is for free and lives somewhat on donations.

But also with this update, I will change my goverment once i get a change to a goverment that helps my enviroment, also a note if something should be changed, it should be the people always wanting goverment/religion change. Cant be a dictator when your population always wants Capitalism.

not only that I got semi-rude/vague responses when i thought this was a bug. Which is crap. If i knew people like that worked on CN or with, I wouldnt have donated. I know that people will just say then dont play the game. Oh well. Thats how i feel.

Not only that but I have my borders closed, so the my people either dug under the border guard or got killed trying to leave but none that matters.

NOTE: border walls seem to be crap cause i have them

Edited May 19, 2008 by MSGKlemer

[Ski11585]

I believe (DAC) wanted to see more skill in how we went about building our nations.

The fact I have gone out and built those two nice ratios, created a good trade circle and stuck with my native lead, have been somewhat rewarded by the fact that I haven't been effected as much. I mean sure I lost half my daily income, but I'm no where near bill lock. And thats with too muc military and 5 LC's.

Edit: Forgot Im at war too

I think he wanted to secure his spot in the top 10.

[raptorix]

100% agree, after 200 days i finally got a decent TC, thats a miracle with furs and gold, even more happy when jewelry and Affluent Population got upgraded. Today i lost 8 improvement slots! This change is stupid, and doesn't make sense, people with already bad resources get punisched again!

[shayde]

100% agree, after 200 days i finally got a decent TC, thats a miracle with furs and gold, even more happy when jewelry and Affluent Population got upgraded. Today i lost 8 improvement slots! This change is stupid, and doesn't make sense, people with already bad resources get punisched again!

I feel your pain my brother. It's a double whammy.