Decomposition Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 Hi All, I find myself at 3999.99 infra with a good trade set-up and have had some time to crunch the numbers to see what the difference between the improvement swapping cycle and no improvement swapping really is. From my calculations the gain is pretty small - only about 60k a day which would barely buy me one infra. Has anyone done similar calculations and come up with different or similar figures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sayton Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 what do you mean buy improvement swwapping.. do you mean labor camp swapping.. if that is what you mean.. as your infra increases... and nation income increases.. trust me.. itll be greater than just 60k a day... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syzygy Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 well for my nation +5 happiness is around 800k per day. So in 10days I make 8M more tax and the improvements have to swap cost "only" 5x150k=750k. = I make a pure profit from 7.25M every 10days from swapping. The problem is: if you mess it up ONE time [razing the LCs before paying the bills... ouch], I would have to pay double-bills for 10 days. And since I have right now 8M infrabills daily, that would be wasted 80M. So, mess it up once = you need 100 days of perfect swapping to nullify the damage you just did. My suggestion: if you are not aiming for perfectionism, just let it be, the risk of wasting cash in a mistake is too high. It increases your efficiency by maybe 10% at most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decomposition Posted March 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 Yes, I mean labor camp swapping. I think what many people forget to account for is that buying infra every day and paying bills every day would increase your population a few days earlier (about 450 citizens every day for me) which would get you more income from those extra citizens over the course of the period where you would normally only be paying bills. Once I take that into account (and the risk factor mentioned above) it seems like at my current medium size that labor camp swapping is probably not worth it. That might change later on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syzygy Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 it changes a lot later on, because once you are above 7,999 infra, more infra does not significantly increase your income. For example I could burn 200 MILLION cash in new infra, and would increase my daily profit by only 200k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Witz Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 (edited) Yes, I mean labor camp swapping. I think what many people forget to account for is that buying infra every day and paying bills every day would increase your population a few days earlier (about 450 citizens every day for me) which would get you more income from those extra citizens over the course of the period where you would normally only be paying bills. Once I take that into account (and the risk factor mentioned above) it seems like at my current medium size that labor camp swapping is probably not worth it. That might change later on. My nation is smaller than yours and LC swapping is worth it after 1 day of taxes. That quickly becomes >17million after 19 days. You might be doing it inefficiently Edited March 7, 2008 by Ivegottheskill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 If I get to 3999 infra I'm not going to improvement swap at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudluv2 Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 well...i save about 1.5 million per day with my 50% infra upkeep with labor camps. stretch that over 5 days...yeah...i think spending 1 mill to save 7.5 mill is worth it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othila Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 The problem is: if you mess it up ONE time [razing the LCs before paying the bills... ouch], I would have to pay double-bills for 10 days. And since I have right now 8M infrabills daily, that would be wasted 80M. Why not pay your bills every day? That way if you mess up you only have to pay one days bills at double. It doesn't take long to save up enough to pay 10 days worth of bills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaghul Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 well for my nation +5 happiness is around 800k per day. So in 10days I make 8M more tax and the improvements have to swap cost "only" 5x150k=750k.= I make a pure profit from 7.25M every 10days from swapping. The problem is: if you mess it up ONE time [razing the LCs before paying the bills... ouch], I would have to pay double-bills for 10 days. And since I have right now 8M infrabills daily, that would be wasted 80M. So, mess it up once = you need 100 days of perfect swapping to nullify the damage you just did. My suggestion: if you are not aiming for perfectionism, just let it be, the risk of wasting cash in a mistake is too high. It increases your efficiency by maybe 10% at most. Usually I pay bills every day while swapping, and I think most other people do too, so I don't think it's an issue. Given the 50% bill reduction, improvement swapping is definitely worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllidansWrath Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 what do you mean buy improvement swwapping.. do you mean labor camp swapping.. if that is what you mean.. as your infra increases... and nation income increases.. trust me.. itll be greater than just 60k a day... ^ this. The longer you delay collecting taxes, the more you make. Since admin boosted the cost of Labor Camps, Factories, and Banks (quite some time ago), it made improvement swapping a less favorable choice for younger nations, especially since delaying collection is directly correlated with a delay in infra purchases, which can stunt a nations growth. Basically, depending on your improvement setting, it probably isn't worth improving swapping till a decent range in infra, I haven't done the math, but I'm sure someone can tell you when Infra swapping will be most beneficial to your nation regarding the increased improvement purchase costs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallfrog Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 5 labour camps half your bills. that for me is 1.5 mill a day. Labor camps cost 150 thousand. Which means I ave 750K on bills if I was to just buy for one day then raise them. If I do a two day swap I get 2 million in extra profit. Once over 4k it really becomes worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decomposition Posted March 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 5 labour camps half your bills. that for me is 1.5 mill a day. Labor camps cost 150 thousand. Which means I ave 750K on bills if I was to just buy for one day then raise them. If I do a two day swap I get 2 million in extra profit. Once over 4k it really becomes worth it. SUrely, you have to think of it in terms of opportunity cost - what are you giving up by just hanging on to your labor camps? The happiness penalty for five labor camps is -5 and stronger nations already have all the happiness boosting improvements anyway so they cannot swap the labor camps for, say, churches. So your benefit is really only the 5 extra happiness points while your cost is the delay in purchasing infra and getting returns on that. I think that it comes out as very low benefit once you have all happiness boosting improvements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsweaver Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 SUrely, you have to think of it in terms of opportunity cost - what are you giving up by just hanging on to your labor camps? The happiness penalty for five labor camps is -5 and stronger nations already have all the happiness boosting improvements anyway so they cannot swap the labor camps for, say, churches. So your benefit is really only the 5 extra happiness points while your cost is the delay in purchasing infra and getting returns on that. I think that it comes out as very low benefit once you have all happiness boosting improvements. So what's your argument? Do you always have labor camps and just never delete to collect? And I think you'll see that the benefits from infra purchases are slowing down quickly at the 3999 level. You aren't getting the gains of happiness improvements anymore. I've been sitting at 3999 for two months just collecting tech and buying wonders. By my brief calculations, spending $70M on two wonders yielded nearly the same gain as jumping to 4999 which would cost $72M with my current tradeset. There are a million ways to play this game, but IMO, you're making a mistake to collect taxes while holding labor camps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgsboson Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 (edited) I just leave my labour camps in. I only lose 250K a day so there's no point spending 750K every 3 days as it works out the same. I earn enough to buy 2 wonders a month anyway, that's good enough for me. Edited March 7, 2008 by Fanservice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallfrog Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 SUrely, you have to think of it in terms of opportunity cost - what are you giving up by just hanging on to your labor camps? The happiness penalty for five labor camps is -5 and stronger nations already have all the happiness boosting improvements anyway so they cannot swap the labor camps for, say, churches. So your benefit is really only the 5 extra happiness points while your cost is the delay in purchasing infra and getting returns on that. I think that it comes out as very low benefit once you have all happiness boosting improvements. For me, I don't have enough slots to make it worth maintaining both churches and labor camps, so we are talking 10 happiness, or 1/6th of my happiness rating. And for larger nations, 5 happiness in a days taxes is worth far far more than the cost of 5 LC's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kswiss2783 Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 Why not pay your bills every day? That way if you mess up you only have to pay one days bills at double. It doesn't take long to save up enough to pay 10 days worth of bills. Exactly! I screwed up once and paid without LC but I pay em everyday, so it only cost me an extra 4million. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syzygy Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 you can do this, but then you cant combine it with a nice tankswap as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan the Barbeque Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 If I get to 3999 infra I'm not going to improvement swap at all. I hate to break it to you, but you have over 4000 infra despite my efforts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brotherington Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 well, you can get the same effect as buying one of the best wonders by selling your labor camps to collect. I would say that was worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DownFall Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 +5 happiness is the same effect I get from my 30million Stock Market (I'm pretty sure, unless there is something that effects happiness but not direct income), so I'd say it's pretty much worth it. My SM will take me not that many days to repay itself, so I'm sure that the LC swapping will provide just as good if not more of a benefit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kswiss2783 Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 (edited) you can do this, but then you cant combine it with a nice tankswap as well I don't do that cuz I don't know what it is. Care to explain? Edited March 7, 2008 by kswiss2783 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallfrog Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 (edited) I don't do that cuz I don't know what it is. Care to explain? He maintains a standing tank army, which he decoms before he pays bills, then re-buys after collecting taxes. EDIT: He also appears to remain in defcon 1 during non-collecting period. Edited March 7, 2008 by Smallfrog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kswiss2783 Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 He maintains a standing tank army, which he decoms before he pays bills, then re-buys after collecting taxes.EDIT: He also appears to remain in defcon 1 during non-collecting period. Ah,ok, I remain in DC1 and threat severe during non collecting periods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsweaver Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 He maintains a standing tank army, which he decoms before he pays bills, then re-buys after collecting taxes.EDIT: He also appears to remain in defcon 1 during non-collecting period. I tried this once...my only problem was that after 3 days (I think) you essentially couldn't do anything with your nation, including give aid. I like buying tech (from others) and giving aid to those in my alliance so it didn't work for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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