Possible Bill calculation error after returning from inactivity

[Catface]

 

I'm not sure if this is a bug or not, but when I returned from activity it says my bill payment was last on a date where I was still inactive. It's been so long since I reactivated my nation that I'm not sure if this is due to over-due bill payment from back then or if this is a current error.

Thanks!

[admin]

When your nation went inactive 2,734 days ago, your nation owed 111 days of back bills. The last bill payment date was auto adjusted to today-111 days when you returned to the game. You don't have to pay bills for the days that you were gone (2,734 days), but you still have to pay the bills that you originally owed when you left.

[Lyanna Mormont]

Is there a way that this system can be improved? I spend a lot of time trying to get people to come back to the game and it is discouraging to them when they finally agree to come back to see that they are very bill locked. It feels like the game is punishing you for wanting to play again which seems counter productive.

[jerdge]

On 1/27/2023 at 4:11 AM, Lyanna Mormont said:

Is there a way that this system can be improved? I spend a lot of time trying to get people to come back to the game and it is discouraging to them when they finally agree to come back to see that they are very bill locked. It feels like the game is punishing you for wanting to play again which seems counter productive.

The feature was likely introduced to avoid that one could exit bill-lock by exploiting inactivity.

 

In this case it wouldn't be difficult to get out of bill-lock, Catface needs only dump some infra, which is easily bought back at their level. Alternatively they can be aided out of it.

 

I however agree that this feature should be adjusted to be more in line with the current game dynamics.

Nowadays basically every active player has loads of cash, if Catface had their bills reduced to their current treasury they would still be at a disadvantage (which is the point of not having people exploit inactivity for economic reasons) while still being able to play the game.

 

With that said, I'm heading to my foreign aid screen.

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by jerdge
grammar, I suppose

[jerdge]

Quote

That nation was recently restored from inactivity and cannot receive foreign aid until 2/3/2023

Well this is most probably a restriction we can do without.

[Bdiah]

5 hours ago, jerdge said:

Well this is most probably a restriction we can do without.

 

I actually think the inactivity delay makes a bit of sense since it penalizes people who would going inactive to get out of war.  However, as jerge and Lyanna said, it is very disheartening to come back to the game and then have to destroy your nation just to get out of bill-lock and play again.  111 days of bills is way too much.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Bdiah
Adding additional thought.

[admin]

5 minutes ago, Bdiah said:

 111 days of bills is way too much.

They owed 111 days of bills before going inactive. It's not something the game generated as a penalty. 

[Bdiah]

18 minutes ago, admin said:

They owed 111 days of bills before going inactive. It's not something the game generated as a penalty. 

I guess I struggle to understand how this is possible, but this is the first time I've seriously thought about this topic.  Please be patient with me. 

 

My understanding is that:

(1) you go inactive if you don't collect within 25 days; and

(2) you can't collect unless your bills are paid.

 

So he must have gone inactive for lack of collection.  Then come back, waited another 25 days, gone inactive again for lack of collection.  And then he must have repeated the process at least three more times.   Is that accurate?

[Lyanna Mormont]

10 hours ago, jerdge said:

Well this is most probably a restriction we can do without.

 

Yes, please. This one is so annoying. 

[jerdge]

8 hours ago, Bdiah said:

I actually think the inactivity delay makes a bit of sense since it penalizes people who would going inactive to get out of war.  However, as jerge and Lyanna said, it is very disheartening to come back to the game and then have to destroy your nation just to get out of bill-lock and play again.  111 days of bills is way too much.

I can get behind delaying the ability to declare war, even delaying the ability to send aid, but why on earth delay the ability to receive aid? It can't be exploited in any way and it's just going to add to the frustration of being bill-locked.

 

 

4 hours ago, Bdiah said:

I guess I struggle to understand how this is possible, but this is the first time I've seriously thought about this topic.  Please be patient with me. 

 

My understanding is that:

(1) you go inactive if you don't collect within 25 days; and

(2) you can't collect unless your bills are paid.

 

So he must have gone inactive for lack of collection.  Then come back, waited another 25 days, gone inactive again for lack of collection.  And then he must have repeated the process at least three more times.   Is that accurate?

It's not accurate.

 

(1) You go inactive if you don't log in, not if you don't collect taxes (it used to be so but it was changed several years ago).

 

(2) You can collect regardless of you being up to date with your bills, but "if you do not pay your bills for 20 days you will begin to accrue a bill avoidance fee on your income tax collections of 20% at 20 days plus 2% per day after that."

This means that at 60+ days your collection should be zero, however it doesn't say that you can't perform the collection itself. (I've never tested it myself and I don't know of others having done it.)

 

#1 Alone explains how one can owe 111 (or any number) days of bills, anyway.

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by jerdge
typo

[Bdiah]

1 hour ago, jerdge said:

(it used to be so but it was changed several years ago).

Thank you jerge for the explanation.  It clarifies things quite a bit.  There was a time, circa 2009 when I was really clued in the game mechanics.  I cannot say that I am anymore.

 

Still, I think we can all agree that racking up 111 days of unpaid bills is an impressive, albeit stupid achievement.

[Sarkin]

Everyone can agree: we want to make it as easy as possible for former players to return without letting people exploit the inactivity mechanic for gameplay advantages.

 

Given the need to achieve that balance, I understanding keeping the restriction on newly returned nations declaring wars and sending aid. Those both help solve the "don't let people exploit the system" problem. However, I agree with the others that the current system is too punishing for the "let's make it easy to return to the game" problem. 

 

As it stands, there are technically three options to get out of a hole like this: (1) donate, (2) demolish your own nation, or (3) receive aid. I think it's unlikely that someone who already dropped the game will be willing to do option #1 immediately upon their return, so we can rule that out. I also think option #2 is about as demoralizing of an experience as a player can possibly have. Either they'll refuse to do it, or they'll feel extremely frustrated. The end result is the same: most will leave.

 

So, that leaves option #3, receiving aid. Here, Catface is in the ideal scenario: she's returning to an active alliance with the resources and desire to help. Even still, she has to spend a whole week waiting around doing nothing until that help can arrive. Again, how many returning players are likely to stick around for that? Those who do, like her, will undoubtedly be exceptional cases. Especially for other nations that would require multiple rounds of aid to escape their red ink, how discouraged are they going to be realizing that and knowing that the bailout process can't even start for a week? Knowing that, in the meantime, their debt will just grow even larger! Again, most will leave.

 

Ultimately, I don't see how the ability to receive aid immediately upon returning from inactivity is exploitable. And if it's not exploitable, then we just have to ask whether allowing it would make it easier for nations to return, and that's certainly true.

 

Even for those nations in the most dire financial straits, the financial aid they receive will constitute an immediate expression of care; it helps recreate a social fabric between the returning player and their alliance or the community at large. And that's the kind of thing that encourages people to stick around.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Sarkin

[Catface]

On 1/30/2023 at 5:12 PM, Bdiah said:

Still, I think we can all agree that racking up 111 days of unpaid bills is an impressive, albeit stupid achievement.

 

First, I just want to say I'm very proud of this accomplishment and the recognition you've given it.

 

I thought there may have been an error because of the back-dating of the bill payment, but Admin clarified the issue. How I got to 111 days without paying bills before going inactive is irrelevant (and honestly, long forgotten), but it is not inaccurate like I had assumed.

 

As a long-time returning player, a change in aid mechanics would be appreciated, but I think that's a discussion for another forum section. Thank you for the clarification, Admin. I'm making space for this trophy on my shelf.