Smitty256 Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 4 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said: It was not common, and when it did happen, it caused so much outrage to the point that you are no longer allowed to delete your MP anymore to prevent it from being a surrender term ever again. Admin literally stepped in to stop it from happening again, that's the level we're talking here. Please excuse my ignorance on the matter. I started playing in 2015, so I missed at lot of the good years. 8 hours ago, Johnny Apocalypse said: I won't speak on Lucius' behalf on this matter, however I will provide my own opinion: One can be presented with a proposal which one finds unreasonable, but one can still agree to the proposal presented for any number of reasons if it is pragmatic to do so. For example: If the end consequence of accepting the unreasonable terms results in a positive outcome for a party who are suffering the consequences of the actions of one person (in this instance: Peace for The Imperial Entente), then a leader may choose to bite the bullet presented in order to benefit their people instead of themselves and any attempts to placate their ego. Some leaders are humble enough to accept unreasonable terms in order to protect the people they lead and care for. Some leaders refuse reasonable terms because their pride gets the better of them and they are unwilling to take an iota of accountability for their actions and accept the consequences. Ultimately my point is that the mere act of accepting terms does not necessarily infer that they are reasonable or unreasonable. Simply that they have been agreed upon in pursuit of a greater good, something that transcends the ego of the leader who is being forcibly held accountable for the grievance the other party holds. Personally? I find the re-introduction of wonder decommissioning distasteful along with the need to single out Lucius to make him burn his money. Especially given that the party who demanded it has strength and resources that far surpass what the Entente have at their disposal. If the Entente had firepower that would match that of CLAWS and the casus belli presented against them had actually yielded circumstances that were genuinely detrimental to the security of CLAWS? Maybe I would be a bit more understanding regarding the need to make an example of Lucius and punish TIE further. In this instance though? It comes across as simply a gratuitous demonstration of the "might makes right" trope and a confirmation that CLAWS declared on TIE for reasons that go beyond the 'intelligence' presented to them. No actual evidence exists to show that such a network was established or had caused any grievous harm to CLAWS- Lucius is guilty of merely entertaining the notion but has taken responsibility for it all the same. As I understand it, TDE was a member of CLAWS at the time, hiding under a pseudonym trying to worm his way up the chain of command and offering intelligence to other parties- yet it is Lucius who is tarred with the charge of espionage. By all means pursue your grievance with someone who you have a casus belli against on the battlefield, but adding such terms as a pre-requisite for peace in this context only serves to perpetuate the chance of more resentment and bitterness down the line. (Which I just spotted that in the time I have taken to write this reply; @tehol has noticed this exact phenomenon taking place) Okay, that's fair. Let me ask you this. Shouldn't peace be the endgame? When all is said and done, shouldn't we strive for peace? What does it matter how the peace was achieved? For an example: in 1918, Germany surrendered to the Allies and signed the Treaty of Versailles. Which of course ended the fighting. Now, one could argue that the end of World War 1 directly led to World War 2. It would be a good argument. I would disagree with it though. Adolf Hitler was able to exploit the anger and the bitterness of the German people and rise to power. It was Hitler's goals and power/hate filled aspirations that led to World War 2. The Treaty of Versailles, which put the undue burden of the war onto Germany, didn't cause it. Hitler only exploited the Treaty and the terms that the Allies set. Firstly, Germany had to say that the war was their fault, despite the fact that it was started because a Serbian national killed the Austrian Arch Duke. Second, Germany was forced an ungodly amount of money to the victors, which they only just paid off a few years ago. Third, they not allowed to have a military. Well, they were, but it had to be like 3 times smaller than their normal military size. Finally, they had to return all the land that they "stole" from the allies. That is on top of Hitler exploiting what was happening with the Great Depression in the 30s. The Treaty of Versailles, for all intents and purposes, worked. It put an end to a war that killed millions of people and completely changed Europe as we know it. It put an end to some of the oldest monarchies in the world. The 1920s hit and the world prospered. Its called the roaring 20s for a reason. I am not going to give my opinion on whether or not I think the terms were reasonable or unreasonable. My opinion on it doesn't matter. CLAWS was the offended party in the matter. TIE was the offending party. Al has said that he didn't care if Lucius accepted the terms or not. CLAWS presented Lucius terms and Lucius accepted them. Peace has been achieved. You are defending your friends and allies, and I respect that. I think it is admirable that you are defending your position with such vigor. History is written by the victors afterall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus1082 Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 5 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said: Calling DeathAdder's strained farts a "propaganda machine" is quite generous. Sarcasm on teh interwebz is a skill that I have mastered... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Virginia Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 On 10/22/2020 at 6:37 AM, Smitty256 said: How is it pathetic? Wasn't deactivating military wonders after you lose a war pretty common back in the day? So that's your defense of the term? That NPO used to do it back in their heyday? We may as well bring back PZI in that case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerdge Posted October 25, 2020 Report Share Posted October 25, 2020 (edited) Well I really am not involved into this thus I'll comment on Lucius's terms from a general point of view. Take this as a way to try elevate a bit the discussion - or divert it? - over the specifics and the personal grievances (which I actually respect but which I'm also little personally interested into), and not as taking a position for this or that party. When an alliance is threatened or damaged by an external party it does IMHO make sense to respond with force and, in order to subsequently transition to peace, to demand that the offender suffers consequences of some sort. An alliance which gave up deterring attacks would be more likely to then be attacked again. As the very point of being an alliance in the first place is protection, exposing itself to an higher chance of being damaged down the road would be absurd, even before and above being wrong. With that in mind, proposing terms which basically amount to treasury drainage makes sense. If it's done without dragging it for too long, even better. When I've had to devise terms for similar situations, in the past, I've proposed forced tech purchases (not through tech deals but via direct tech levels purchase) in order to have the offending party burn a substantial amount of their treasury - I'm talking of billion-sized buyings. I couldn't thus in good conscience point my finger against anyone doing (more or less) the same. Much better than long attrition wars, forced tech deals/reparations, forcing people out of peace mode to destroy their nations, or anything like that. On 10/24/2020 at 11:33 AM, Banned said: Hey Doom Mother, it's nice to see you on here. Unless you're here to send me to my doom for acting up again. But I already apologized to you. It's just that... those kids are over there crying for nothing, I swear it. I didn't even do anything! I just said my Doom Mom could beat up their Mom, which is true. You could! I'm gonna be grounded for a long time aren't I? O.M.G. Edited October 25, 2020 by jerdge typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewie Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 Your 6 monthly reminder that NG are the worst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerschbs Posted October 31, 2020 Report Share Posted October 31, 2020 9 hours ago, Stewie said: Your 6 monthly reminder that NG are the worst Bring nukes. Need dead guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewie Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 On 10/31/2020 at 8:59 PM, kerschbs said: Bring nukes. Need dead guys. Precisely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerdge Posted November 3, 2020 Report Share Posted November 3, 2020 On 10/31/2020 at 11:59 AM, Stewie said: Your 6 monthly reminder that NG are the worst The worst at what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALFERALFER Posted November 4, 2020 Report Share Posted November 4, 2020 On 10/31/2020 at 1:59 PM, kerschbs said: Bring nukes. Need dead guys. NO NO NO. It's I NEED DEAD DUDES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandystalin Posted November 10, 2020 Report Share Posted November 10, 2020 On 11/3/2020 at 9:25 PM, jerdge said: The worst at what? Fighting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewie Posted November 10, 2020 Report Share Posted November 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, Mandystalin said: Fighting Cuddling in a paper bag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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