Instrument of peace between CLAWS and Imperial Entente

[Tankobite]

I've tried to avoid stirring the pot, but I keep seeing this statement repeated by CLAWS and Co that COBRA or TPF were bad allies for not coming to our defense. This is, of course, ridiculous. Both Kap and Johnny came to us as soon as they saw that CLAWS had hit us to coordinate a response. Lucius and I both declined their help as we felt that this was TIE's responsibility and we saw no reason for our allies to be dragged into a conflict. To try and argue there was any perfidy or timidity on their part is  just silly. 

I think it speaks volumes that the only ones complaining about COBRA or TPF not jumping in on the war are people who have an axe to grind with them and not the people who were allegedly abandoned by them.

[AL Bundy]

51 minutes ago, General Kanabis said:

I applaud the effort, but these are just awful (as far as memes go)

As for the content:

We are well aware of your attempts to corrupt  the narrative in that direction.

But coming from the alliance that waited 6 months for Oculus to roll in against Grata to assist their allies, it really isn't saying much.

 

Calling us cowardly for refusing to continue a habit of impulsive recklessness (which is widely criticized by your betters) is just cheap and almost reinforces the idea that you didn't actually get what you wanted.

Late is better than never hahaha but good try...and we were not needed....

 

I would never criticize someone for honoring a treaty, maybe aspect of it but duty is duty hahaha Well at least I respected you group when you did what was right, reckless is a weakness but the Hunger Games thing was working for you (If we burn you burn with us)  I rather be tied to a reckless alliance that will defend my alliance vs one that ways risk...  but hey TIE messed up, letting them pay for it by themselves might have been the right thing..... idk 

 

Al

Edited October 23, 2020 by AL Bundy

[Smitty256]

On 10/22/2020 at 10:14 AM, Johnny Apocalypse said:

Supposed to be a joke, but presented with a 24 hour ultimatum? What would the next joke have been if they didn't accept? A very funny one I'm sure.

You didn't expect TIE to accept the terms, you didn't actually want to grant them peace. You were just messing with them and as they actually accepted them with independent arbitrators overseeing it? You couldn't abruptly move the goal posts to accomodate your salty blue-balls currently on display for everyone here.

 

Very cool of you to negotiate in bad faith @Claude Classy behaviour from the Minister of Foreign Affaiirs for CLAWS as expected.

 

And people wonder why we're so hostile to your alliance and don't want anything to do with you.

 

 

 

 

Johnny, I would like to ask an honest question. I am not trying to bait or attack anyone here btw. 

 

During Snake Eyes, RFI presented Cobrasphere with our terms in May. You guys thought that they were unreasonable and continued fighting until August. As was your right. 

 

CLAWS presents Lucius with their terms, Lucius accepts them and thus ends the war. If Lucius believed that they were unreasonable then I think that it is fairly reasonable to assume that he would have turned them down. He didn't turn them down though. He accepted them. 

 

@Lucius Optimus do you believe that the terms that CLAWS presented to you were unreasonable? If you do, why did you accept them? 

[Spartacus1082]

On 10/19/2020 at 3:41 AM, Rebel Virginia said:

If there is one thing NPO or their ilk cannot abide it is a fair fight.

While this is as accurate a post as I've ever seen in these hallowed halls.  I do have one majorly significant issue.  The blue lettering.   It is as heinous as it was when I was a frequent visitor...

 

But I digress...  While I have to admit that I did not read this entire thread, I did see that the vaunted Pacifica propaganda machine is still alive and well, !@#$%* like always.  

[Kapleo]

38 minutes ago, Smitty256 said:

 

@Lucius Optimus do you believe that the terms that CLAWS presented to you were unreasonable? If you do, why did you accept them? 

@Smitty256, hey bud, if you don't mind, I would like to keep our TIE friends from having to repeat themselves for what has already been said or implied, Lucius said what he had to say and remained quiet afterwards. The reasoning behind their decision was Lucius taking the punishment instead of his alliance members as they were innocent. So as unfair as the terms might have been, he took them just so no one else had to.

[AL Bundy]

9 minutes ago, Kapleo said:

@Smitty256, hey bud, if you don't mind, I would like to keep our TIE friends from having to repeat themselves for what has already been said or implied, Lucius said what he had to say and remained quiet afterwards. The reasoning behind their decision was Lucius taking the punishment instead of his alliance members as they were innocent. So as unfair as the terms might have been, he took them just so no one else had to.

So letting the innocent go and punishing the guilty is wrong... Ya that does sound unfair....

 

AL

[Tankobite]

23 minutes ago, AL Bundy said:

So letting the innocent go and punishing the guilty is wrong... Ya that does sound unfair....

 

AL

Again, in the interest of civility I'm trying not to stir !@#$ or go into detail about private discussions, but in this case I have to. Our first peace talks never got off the ground because Claude insisted that we force Shtanto out of peace so you guys could attack him as a precondition for actually beginning peace talks. When Luc and I offered to let you hit us so that you could punish TIE leadership and let the members go, you didn't even consider it then. The time Lucius has to fight on now was specifically chosen because that was how long 'shtanto sat out the war.'
I'm not sure what CLAWS's beef was with shtanto, frankly, it's a little weird. I've never seen him get cross with anyone or cause any trouble.


So don't play like this is about 'letting the innocent go.' Claude unfortunately revealed that this offer was apparently not made in good faith, but Luc surprised you all by accepting it. Good for him. He's doing what an AA leader should do--look out for his members, even at his own expense. I can think of another AA right now that's having that problem--it's leaders' egos are more valuable than their members.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Tankobite

[General Kanabis]

3 hours ago, AL Bundy said:

reckless is a weakness but the Hunger Games thing was working for you 

 

No.

It was working for you.

[Smitty256]

6 hours ago, Kapleo said:

@Smitty256, hey bud, if you don't mind, I would like to keep our TIE friends from having to repeat themselves for what has already been said or implied, Lucius said what he had to say and remained quiet afterwards. The reasoning behind their decision was Lucius taking the punishment instead of his alliance members as they were innocent. So as unfair as the terms might have been, he took them just so no one else had to.

Fair enough. 

[tehol]

Well done everyone. At this rate the fighting in this thread might continue past the wars with Lucius

[Lord Hitchcock]

9 hours ago, Kapleo said:

@Smitty256, hey bud, if you don't mind, I would like to keep our TIE friends from having to repeat themselves for what has already been said or implied, Lucius said what he had to say and remained quiet afterwards. The reasoning behind their decision was Lucius taking the punishment instead of his alliance members as they were innocent. So as unfair as the terms might have been, he took them just so no one else had to.

@Kapleo, Hey bud, if you don’t mind, I’d like for Lucious to speak for himself. Rather than the lip service from his allies. Lucious hasn’t said a word and might be embarrassed, not because of his terms but instead how you’ve been acting. The reasoning behind this is that he already agreed to pay for his crime. The terms were fair and he agreed to them, and now his alliance is being dragged through the mud by how bad TIE’s ‘allies’ are handling it.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

10 hours ago, Smitty256 said:

 

Johnny, I would like to ask an honest question. I am not trying to bait or attack anyone here btw. 

 

During Snake Eyes, RFI presented Cobrasphere with our terms in May. You guys thought that they were unreasonable and continued fighting until August. As was your right. 

 

CLAWS presents Lucius with their terms, Lucius accepts them and thus ends the war. If Lucius believed that they were unreasonable then I think that it is fairly reasonable to assume that he would have turned them down. He didn't turn them down though. He accepted them. 

 

@Lucius Optimus do you believe that the terms that CLAWS presented to you were unreasonable? If you do, why did you accept them? 

 

I won't speak on Lucius' behalf on this matter, however I will provide my own opinion:

 

One can be presented with a proposal which one finds unreasonable, but one can still agree to the proposal presented for any number of reasons if it is pragmatic to do so. For example: If the end consequence of accepting the unreasonable terms results in a positive outcome for a party who are suffering the consequences of the actions of one person (in this instance: Peace for The Imperial Entente), then a leader may choose to bite the bullet presented in order to benefit their people instead of themselves and any attempts to placate their ego.

 

Some leaders are humble enough to accept unreasonable terms in order to protect the people they lead and care for. Some leaders refuse reasonable terms because their pride gets the better of them and they are unwilling to take an iota of accountability for their actions and accept the consequences.

 

Ultimately my point is that the mere act of accepting terms does not necessarily infer that they are reasonable or unreasonable. Simply that they have been agreed upon in pursuit of a greater good, something that transcends the ego of the leader who is being forcibly held accountable for the grievance the other party holds.

 

Personally? I find the re-introduction of wonder decommissioning distasteful along with the need to single out Lucius to make him burn his money. Especially given that the party who demanded it has strength and resources that far surpass what the Entente have at their disposal. If the Entente had firepower that would match that of CLAWS and the casus belli presented against them had actually yielded circumstances that were genuinely detrimental to the security of CLAWS? Maybe I would be a bit more understanding regarding the need to make an example of Lucius and punish TIE further. In this instance though? It comes across as simply a gratuitous demonstration of the "might makes right" trope and a confirmation that CLAWS declared on TIE for reasons that go beyond the 'intelligence' presented to them. No actual evidence exists to show that such a network was established or had caused any grievous harm to CLAWS- Lucius is guilty of merely entertaining the notion but has taken responsibility for it all the same. As I understand it, TDE was a member of CLAWS at the time, hiding under a pseudonym trying to worm his way up the chain of command and offering intelligence to other parties- yet it is Lucius who is tarred with the charge of espionage.

 

By all means pursue your grievance with someone who you have a casus belli against on the battlefield, but adding such terms as a pre-requisite for peace in this context only serves to perpetuate the chance of more resentment and bitterness down the line. (Which I just spotted that in the time I have taken to write this reply; @tehol has noticed this exact phenomenon taking place)

 

11 minutes ago, Lord Hitchcock said:

@Kapleo, Hey bud, if you don’t mind, I’d like for Lucious to speak for himself. Rather than the lip service from his allies. Lucious hasn’t said a word and might be embarrassed, not because of his terms but instead how you’ve been acting. The reasoning behind this is that he already agreed to pay for his crime. The terms were fair and he agreed to them, and now his alliance is being dragged through the mud by how bad TIE’s ‘allies’ are handling it.

 

Hey bud, if you don't mind. This has nothing to do with you, I would advise you to better spend your time addressing the matter at hand between our respective alliances, as the ball is currently in your court

 

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Johnny Apocalypse

[Lord Hitchcock]

10 minutes ago, Johnny Apocalypse said:

Hey bud, if you don't mind. This has nothing to do with you, I would advise you to better spend your time addressing the matter at hand between our respective alliances, as the ball is currently in your court

Well I do mind, seeing TIE have declarations against KNB and now paying for their (non surprisingly) antagonistic behavior, I find it fascinating CLAWs reasonable enough to give Lucious a way out, something they could’ve dragged on. 

 

As for our own terms, still haven’t gotten a list, and I won’t be apologizing for things I didn’t do so that you can look somewhat competent for NLoN because you chose to ignore them when acting belligerently towards Banned.
 

Don’t drag me into your !@#$%* leadership blunders, take your own ownership.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

14 minutes ago, Lord Hitchcock said:

Well I do mind, seeing TIE have declarations against KNB and now paying for their (non surprisingly) antagonistic behavior, I find it fascinating CLAWs reasonable enough to give Lucious a way out, something they could’ve dragged on. 

 

As for our own terms, still haven’t gotten a list, and I won’t be apologizing for things I didn’t do so that you can look somewhat competent for NLoN because you chose to ignore them when acting belligerently towards Banned.
 

Don’t drag me into your !@#$%* leadership blunders, take your own ownership.

 

Then I hope you find it equally fascinating that I have presented you with a way out as well!

 

Friendly reminder; This means of achieving peace does not require you specifically to apologise. After-all, you deny ownership or responsibility of the actions of Banned against COBRA and our allies. Why should you apologise for his failure to get us rolled and his subsequent actions to that end? (Sorry/Not Sorry that we didn't take the bait) It was nice of you to admit that you were no mastermind when it came to the matters and grievances we have been discussing though.

 

But again, as I've said a few times in this thread; this is about CLAWS and TIE. If you're salty that TIE have decided to engage you? Like I said; I have given your alliance a way out. There is nothing more to be said regarding that in this thread.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Johnny Apocalypse

[Kapleo]

13 minutes ago, Lord Hitchcock said:

The terms were fair and he agreed to them

On 10/22/2020 at 8:11 PM, Lord Hitchcock said:

perhaps he wouldn’t be dumb enough to accept such terms.

 

I'm pretty sure your friends are the ones feeling embarrased seeing you constantly making a fool out of yourself. You really need to get your act together, man.

 

The difference between you two can be seen from space. Lucius owned his mistakes and TIE members are now in peace while Lucius fights fiercely. On the other hand KNB members are burning while you cower in your low NS and don't fight at all. Your ego knows no limits. I feel for those who follow you.

 

 

 

 

[Lord Hitchcock]

4 minutes ago, Johnny Apocalypse said:

 

Then I hope you find it equally fascinating that I have presented you with a way out as well!

 

Friendly reminder; This means of achieving peace does not require you specifically to apologise. After-all, you deny ownership or responsibility of the actions of Banned against COBRA and our allies. Why should you apologise for his failure and his actions that he has pursued with a view to our destruction? It was nice of you to admit that you were no mastermind when it came to the matters and grievances we have been discussing though.

 

But again, as I've said a few times in this thread; this is about CLAWS and TIE. If you're salty that TIE have decided to engage you? Like I said; I have given your alliance a way out. There is nothing more to be said regarding that in this thread.

 

I’m not Lucious Johnny, not gonna bend over like a loser and then spend my days seeing my pals feel empathetic. Too Kapleo for my taste.

[Banned]

26 minutes ago, Johnny Apocalypse said:

Why should you apologise for his failure to get us rolled and his subsequent actions to that end? (Sorry/Not Sorry that we didn't take the bait) It was nice of you to admit that you were no mastermind when it came to the matters and grievances we have been discussing though.

First off, as I've stated before, my providing CLAWS with valuable intel had nothing to do with burning your garbage alliance.  It had everything to do with a number of treaty intelligence clauses via organizations in which I hold dual-membership, not to mention my dual-membership status in CLAWS itself.  Maybe you think a member of your alliance isn't responsible for providing you intel when somebody is actively seeking to do your alliance harm, I don't know.  I don't think that way. 

 

But let's go down your little rabbit hole and assume that this was entirely a "this will get 'em" approach.  Then for the cost of a message, I got TIE rolled, and 6 pages of what is mostly just tears from you and your allies.  And to top it off, you didn't defend your buddies on the battlefield, which just makes all the lip service demonstrating your obvious activity even worse. 

 

As for the NLON business, well if you expected a textbook war from an opponent that was going to easily roll over, you should have picked a different opponent.  Try and pressure me all you like by hitting nations that are multiple years old and have intentionally built themselves to about the level they can rebuilt with an aid slot. 

 

Now as I understand it, you've been given our quite generous terms to review.  Accept them or don't.  Your peace terms offer is as irrelevant as you are placeholder.

[CrinkledStraw]

15 hours ago, AL Bundy said:

Owning up, haha you dont get points for admitting to something after the fact its public knowledge

 

Except you do.

 

Because most can't even muster up the sense to do that.

 

Like you all saying Claude didn't present the terms as a joke...after we read him saying that he presented the term as a joke.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

1 hour ago, Banned said:

First off, as I've stated before, my providing CLAWS with valuable intel had nothing to do with burning your garbage alliance.  It had everything to do with a number of treaty intelligence clauses via organizations in which I hold dual-membership, not to mention my dual-membership status in CLAWS itself.  Maybe you think a member of your alliance isn't responsible for providing you intel when somebody is actively seeking to do your alliance harm, I don't know.  I don't think that way. 

 

But let's go down your little rabbit hole and assume that this was entirely a "this will get 'em" approach.  Then for the cost of a message, I got TIE rolled, and 6 pages of what is mostly just tears from you and your allies.  And to top it off, you didn't defend your buddies on the battlefield, which just makes all the lip service demonstrating your obvious activity even worse. 

 

As for the NLON business, well if you expected a textbook war from an opponent that was going to easily roll over, you should have picked a different opponent.  Try and pressure me all you like by hitting nations that are multiple years old and have intentionally built themselves to about the level they can rebuilt with an aid slot. 

 

Now as I understand it, you've been given our quite generous terms to review.  Accept them or don't.  Your peace terms offer is as irrelevant as you are placeholder.

 

Okay let's play along very briefly:

 

Your leaking of intel to CLAWS was not with a view to burning my alliance? If that's true why is it you continue parroting the party line about how we "didn't defend our buddies" despite the several accounts in this thread from all parties involved on TIE's side who have stated very clearly that Lucius specifically requested we did not dive in to defend him militarily- It's almost as if you sound annoyed that we didn't jump in how you predicted.

 

So yeah, you got TIE rolled. Talk all you want of your "treaty obligations" regarding "intelligence clauses" but we both know your true motive from the beginning ("I am coming for your alliance"). You expressed it to me and Kapleo from the beginning; openly, brazenly and unapologetic. In this instance? You expected us to rush to their defense with a view to encouraging full-scale military engagement with CLAWS and potentially RFI also. The disappointment that we did not do so is evident in the sheer amount of salty blue-balls and tears from your own people in this thread.

 

Regarding your attack on NLoN, the uninvolved party? If you think your swiping at any upper-tier nations from alliances who choose to associate with us is going to pressure us into buckling or doing something rash? Then you likewise have picked the wrong opponent. Not to mention the mistake of expecting me to forget about them at the negotiating table.  (Remember when you took great joy in the idea of having me on the other end of the table while having surrender terms dictated, funny how things works out)

 

Ultimately, you have thus far failed to accomplish your primary goal of having COBRA rolled. Wouldn't you agree?

 

----

 

We can fund our people who are equally equipped to fight yours too, we are in no hurry here. Your loss of capacity for efficient tech accumulation is our gain, and the casualties are piling up nicely don't you think? It was KNB who approached us seeking peace, by agreeing to negotiate I'm simply entertaining the notion that you truly desire to pursue an "amicable" peace with us, before finding out Hitchcock or yourself would eventually reveal with your conduct that you never had such intentions and that quite the opposite outcome was far more likely. (See: You waving your blue-balls in the face of LUNN to spite TIE and COBRA after we took on their protection-while negotiations for "amicable" peace were taking place)

 

Also, it would also seem you are uninformed; I have received no counter-offer for your surrender, not that I care. I'm afraid that any counter-offer presented by Hitchcock's puppet masters is irrelevant to this particular placeholder . I am only interested in the proposal I have lodged specifically regarding yourself.

 

Is your pride really worth more than peace for your alliance?

Edited October 24, 2020 by Johnny Apocalypse

[Banned]

Why is it that Lucius can see that he is responsible for getting TIE rolled, but you can't?  And even if it was some malicious intent to get you rolled and it just got TIE rolled instead, that would only be a failure if you don't care much about TIE (which seeing the method you chose to respond to TIE getting rolled is believable). 

 

But you mistake my enjoying watching you squirm when I point out your cowardice to actually caring if you choose to be a coward or not. 

 

Frankly, I've seen the chats around KNB.  If these dudes with these little nations still aren't impressed by you, then I'm certainly not either.  So if you want to continue beating on KNB for the next 20 years, have at it for all I care.  I'm not going to come on here and lie for you and tell the world that I masterminded whatever plot you have cooked up in your head that I must have done.  I'm not going to lie for you and say that I failed, when the only things I've done is cook your friend and slip some logs to my friend who then decided to cook more of your friends. 

 

If you ever want to take a real shot though, you know my NS range.  I look forward to seeing you there one day if you can find it.  Until then, you'll get nothing from me.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

1 hour ago, Banned said:

Why is it that Lucius can see that he is responsible for getting TIE rolled, but you can't?  And even if it was some malicious intent to get you rolled and it just got TIE rolled instead, that would only be a failure if you don't care much about TIE (which seeing the method you chose to respond to TIE getting rolled is believable). 

 

But you mistake my enjoying watching you squirm when I point out your cowardice to actually caring if you choose to be a coward or not. 

 

Frankly, I've seen the chats around KNB.  If these dudes with these little nations still aren't impressed by you, then I'm certainly not either.  So if you want to continue beating on KNB for the next 20 years, have at it for all I care.  I'm not going to come on here and lie for you and tell the world that I masterminded whatever plot you have cooked up in your head that I must have done.  I'm not going to lie for you and say that I failed, when the only things I've done is cook your friend and slip some logs to my friend who then decided to cook more of your friends. 

 

If you ever want to take a real shot though, you know my NS range.  I look forward to seeing you there one day if you can find it.  Until then, you'll get nothing from me.

 

Difference of opinion I guess? Sure; the intelligence you passed to CLAWS gave them a reason to attack TIE and Lucius was implicated in the intelligence. But you obtained it and passed it on and your distain for Lucius and TIE was well known prior to TDE passing you screenshots of that conversation. Don't waste your time with that "intelligence clause" duty bs. No one is buying it, by all means keep grasping at straws to suit your denial.

 

I don't seek your approval, or to impress you. Frankly if I sincerely achieved either of those I'd have to seriously reconsider my position. I haven't cooked up any plot in my head, or least operated under the delusion I knew the intricacies of what form such a plot might take.

 

Though you have left numerous hints and examples of what form that might take, along with admitting your own responsibility in all of this:

 

fig.1 - August 19th 2020

• Grady states intention to cause a scene when leaving COBRA
• Banned alludes to his return being "bad news for COBRA"

fig.2

 

• Lord Hitchcock encourages an attack on Ordo Cyberneticus
• TDE confirms his 'orders' not provided by Hitchcock
• Banned confirms orders came from him

 

And chill out dude, it's fine. I'm not asking you to lie to the world. Heavens no!

 

As you said to me in relation to GK; "I am coming for your friend" And fair play; you've really done your VERY best to play any card possible to see that happen with Hitchcock acting as your willing fool. You freely admit to everything you have done, which anyone can connect the dots between in order to ascertain your motives. Yet, you refuse to admit that those actions have not achieved your desired aims, You expected a hot-headed and hastily made response to the repeated acts of provocation from yourself to drag our allies and your allies to war with each other. You even gloated about the prospect of getting me to a position where you were in charge of negotiating our surrender with me and how you would relish how difficult you would make that. (This is the problem about boasting openly about your preference to plot openly, people do pay attention even if you're too big to experience repercussions for it- something of a double-edged sword)

 

Unfortunately, you got sock-blocked by a mere placeholder. I can understand why this might be frustrating for you, would you like a cigarette?

 

EDIT: Were my nation not in a 10 year slumber until last year? I would likely be in range of you and more than willing to engage already- if we hadn't already exchanged nukes during those 10 years at some point (likely)

 

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Johnny Apocalypse

[HeroofTime55]

On 10/22/2020 at 7:37 AM, Smitty256 said:

 

How is it pathetic? Wasn't deactivating military wonders after you lose a war pretty common back in the day?

It was not common, and when it did happen, it caused so much outrage to the point that you are no longer allowed to delete your MP anymore to prevent it from being a surrender term ever again.  Admin literally stepped in to stop it from happening again, that's the level we're talking here.

[HeroofTime55]

15 hours ago, Spartacus1082 said:

While I have to admit that I did not read this entire thread, I did see that the vaunted Pacifica propaganda machine is still alive and well, !@#$%* like always.  

Calling DeathAdder's strained farts a "propaganda machine" is quite generous.

[White Chocolate]

On 10/22/2020 at 11:32 AM, Jazzy95 said:

 

 

For those complaining about the terms Lucius accepted, I fail to see why. He made the terms acceptable when he... accepted the terms. If other alliance leaders find those terms unacceptable when presented with them, they'll be free to negotiate or continue fighting in hopes of a different offer. Lucius did neither because, and this is the important part, he found them acceptable. 

This is the best point of the entire thread.  Liked.

 

To Lucius - good show.

 

Also @Banned - Thank you for providing the intelligence you have provided to CLAWS.  I realize that as the leader for the "S" (SLAP)  in CLAWS, it was your duty.  However I do not think that any of us adequately accounted for the vast amount of drivel that would be flung in your direction as a result. 

[Banned]

28 minutes ago, White Chocolate said:

Also @Banned - Thank you for providing the intelligence you have provided to CLAWS.  I realize that as the leader for the "S" (SLAP)  in CLAWS, it was your duty.  However I do not think that any of us adequately accounted for the vast amount of drivel that would be flung in your direction as a result. 

Hey Doom Mother, it's nice to see you on here.  Unless you're here to send me to my doom for acting up again.  But I already apologized to you.  It's just that... those kids are over there crying for nothing, I swear it.  I didn't even do anything!  I just said my Doom Mom could beat up their Mom, which is true.  You could!  I'm gonna be grounded for a long time aren't I?

 

Well, before I go I just want to say congratulations to CLAWS on a well earned peace, and to Lucius for getting a shorter war and better terms than he deserved.