CLAWS Memo Re: WFH - For Immediate Release

[Tevron]

11 hours ago, Johnny Apocalypse said:

Tevron; you asked me why I did not damn Lucius' actions and I gave you an answer. Yet you yielded no answer regarding whether you damn the behaviour (which has included espionage) of your tertiary ally (and friend, as I understand no?) who has been acting belligerently to me and mine for some time

If I am a hypocrite for not having a stake in the KND situation, then I am confused. Did I take to the OWF and defend their actions as absolutely necessary? I am not nearly as familiar with nor implicated in this situation as you are with this one. I would love for you to stop by and elaborate on how they have been facilitating ongoing behavior that includes espionage; I would surely damn them: Ally or not! I'm not bending over backwards turning myself into a pretzel to claim that Lucius both needed to make this decision and that I supposedly don't condone espionage: That would be yourself.

 

You should take some lessons or advice from GK, who has standards that don't change from thread to thread. Having a consistent ideology could do you some good when you represent an alliance that has actual standards.

 

11 hours ago, Johnny Apocalypse said:

You cited two values earlier on which you claim to uphold, I trust that you held true to them and were otherwise oblivious to the schemes of your friend- at least up until a week ago when the intelligence was passed to your bloc-mate.

Correct. Banned (if you're referring to him?) knows that I have principles with regard to behavior like this, and is not foolish enough to tell me if he would do such things. I am confused as to how that relates to this particular instance. If I had known earlier, this war would have come earlier as I would have passed the information to CLAWS government immediately, which I consider a common courtesy owed to any alliance leader, even those not worth their salt. This is apparently not common custom since the post you largely agreed with

 

says:

 

12 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said:

As far as the new requirement you are trying to make, that one must actively report to hostile adversaries that someone else is running around promising to spy on them, that's just a bit silly isn't it?

Having the ability to understand basic diplomatic conventions that have been around since the dawn of this game is neither new nor silly -- or at least not as silly as anything else that goes on. I even cited an example where I had been put in a similar situation and reported the matter. I have also been told by other alliances that there were spies within my own who were not my allies (once when I was DMoFA of Polaris). These experiences have shaped my view that I see almost utterly held by all political players today, which is that Espionage is not to be tolerated. 

 

JA, I understand the desire to rhetorically defend your allies, but it's a literally indefensible position. I question what relationship you seem to imply exists between DBDC, KND and GATO. We hold no treaties, and I'm as connected to them as I am with Farkistan, Polaris, and SUN, which is to say that I don't have any obligations to them, nor am I to be expected to weigh in on every single decision that they make as I am an unaffected party. In fact, when you refer to my tertiary ally, you speak of most of the entire game one way or another. I think it's an inconsistent standard because it wasn't my ally who engaged with any form of espionage to my knowledge, nor was I making spurious claims and speculations like:

 

Quote

A more cynical minded person might think that this is a hastily organised contingency operation against my allies, as a result of certain patrons (one might say a certain 'faction') of KNB/DBDC/CLAWS and their recent failed attempt to instigate a war with a just cause to rally support against COBRA. Whether or not you are complicit in such a cynical plot is, like the above paragraph, purely speculatory.

OR

Quote

 

Overall? This looks to me to be a case of entrapment- not necessarily instigated by yourself.

OR

Quote

One hand was foiled, now we see this card being played. In light of the build up of hostile movements (which have been occuring for as long as I can remember), I do not blame Lucius for desiring more information so that he has the tools necessary to ensure the protection of the Entente.

OR
 

Quote

It is for this reason that I do not damn his actions (as misguided as they may have been, he did so only with a view to gaining the necessary foresight to protect the Entente, not to pursue the destruction of another) If you can find me an (active) alliance that does not seek intelligence through legitimate or illegitimate means then I'll find you one with a spine that stands up and condemns the actions of alliances such as your tertiary ally; DBDC.

 

 

Some of these claims are speculation, others are blatant untruths like the last paragraph, but in any case: They are united in one thing. You alone among AA leaders are making the argument that acts of espionage are necessary to protect an alliance from threats. Historically, this has been disproven by Lowsten's post earlier in the thread. Politically, espionage has almost never worked out: It is all risk with little reward. I stand firm in my condemnations; I'm not sure what you expect from yourself, but our instruments of measure are certainly different.
 

In addition, your frequent attempts to swipe at me for political standards needs more work:

11 hours ago, Johnny Apocalypse said:

If this is not the case? Well I certainly don't expect you to actually admit it here so I'll just leave it at that.

 

Of course if I'm lying then I'm lying, I don't need to tell you that. So either prove I'm a liar or stop imagining I am since it's a waste of your time to converse with me if that's the case.

 

I'd rather you consider admitting to your own public inconsistencies instead of imagining and speculating that I have them.

[Tevron]

13 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said:

If it's as "dumbsauce" as you think it is (a correct assessment), then why care so much?

Something's stupidity is not necessarily proportional to how much I care about it. I care a lot about replying to your posts with thoughtful insights, and yet you pedal out this nonsense about "why I care" about something I spend my time on. I also was referring to espionage as "dumbsauce" for the very reasons you listed in this paragraph. It however, is not "dumbsauce" to punish someone for taking the risk. That is one of the reasons why espionage is so foolish.

 

13 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said:

I also never said that Lucius didn't say what text was clearly stated in the logs. 

 

14 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said:

very little evidence that there was ever any actual plot on the part of TIE.

17 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said:

Can we all at least agree to put massive air quotes around the phrase "spy network" for the rest of this thread? 

 

It seems clear to me that you haven't. I'm still waiting for you to read those logs, hell just type them out, and then tell me if it matters what tone he wrote them in. I don't choose to fantasize about whether it was a joking or serious conversation, and the logs do not imply that it is. Creating a new server (TCA) for the specific purpose of the network does not come off as a joke and underlines why I believe you simply haven't read anything.

Quoting Lucius, who explains that it isn't a joke in the thread I've directed you to read repeatedly:

Quote

This further lead me to believe there were indeed covert measures being enacted upon us. This suspicion plays into my reasoning for seeking to build a means to gather intelligence, so that if we were facing some onslaught or pending aggressive action? We would have the intelligence to prepare for such an outcome and protect our own:

 

13 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said:

Given CLAWS history of aggression towards this micro sphere, why in the hell would they want to go out of their way to do any favors for CLAWS?

It would not have done CLAWS any favors, it would've inoculated TIE against any form of retaliation. It is the only way I can see this "diplomacy" argument actually being levied. Please indulge us in providing an explanation for how diplomacy could've solved this situation. I think Lowsten already asked you once already:

 

14 hours ago, James Spanier said:

 

Could CLAWS have approached TIE to try for a diplomatic solution? You're right, it's not mechanically impossible. However a far more valuable question is what could possibly have been accomplished by tipping your hand on this matter? What are the historical examples I'm not aware of where an AA leader (not gov member, but leader) engaged in an attempt to establish a network intended for espionage (sorry HoT) in an AA, was caught, and diplomacy was used successfully to deal with it?

 

[Lord Hitchcock]

11 hours ago, General Kanabis said:

 

Get what exactly?

Your attention?

Oh we get plenty of it. And it's a surplus!

 

LOLz deflection, let me put it into words that you can understand.

 

[Kapleo]

2 hours ago, Lord Hitchcock said:

 

LOLz deflection, let me put it into words that you can understand.

 

Then again, what's your point? We as a whole invaded RFI and TPF as individuals invaded NPO, both cases were long wars. You're talking about a bloc made of people that does not fear the fight regardless of the size of its foe. If you didn't wanted a fight with us, maybe not plotting to attack and then attacking someone within that bloc was the first step to avoid your current situation, don't cry now, cause you've been messing around with us thinking that because most of us considered you a friend we wouldn't snap at some point but, bad news, you pushed your luck too far. You're scum, only topped by TDE and that reputation will follow you for the rest of your days in CN.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Kapleo
typo

[peonage]

I've missed the forums ❤️

[Tankobite]

17 minutes ago, peonage said:

I've missed the forums ❤️

It is nice to see activity here again.

[Banned]

27 minutes ago, Kapleo said:

You're talking about a bloc made of people that does not fear the fight regardless of the size of its foe.

If that were true, that same bloc's leadership would not be giving vocal support to Lucius and defending his actions while simultaneously demonstrating  complete unwillingness to defend his actions with force.  Your words and the actions of your bloc do not align.

[Kapleo]

17 minutes ago, Banned said:

If that were true, that same bloc's leadership would not be giving vocal support to Lucius and defending his actions while simultaneously demonstrating  complete unwillingness to defend his actions with force.  Your words and the actions of your bloc do not align.

Please read my/our previous statements about this, it will save you and everyone else time and effort.

[HeroofTime55]

9 hours ago, Tevron said:

I even cited an example where I had been put in a similar situation and reported the matter. I have also been told by other alliances that there were spies within my own who were not my allies 

Reporting spying activity to a neutral third party is in no way similar to reporting spying activity to an adversary that is engaged in active efforts to destroy you.  Just saying, these are totally different matters entirely.  There is plenty of documentation about the behavior of CLAWS and their proxies/raiding parties, and their extended efforts to assault the COBRA-associated group of micro alliances.

The moral posturing is doubly rich when your allied government in CLAWS goes around conducting piracy against targets they see as vulnerable.  For instance:

 

Al Bundy having been listed on Discord as CLAWS gov during these raids, and welcomed back with open arms into CLAWS high gov at the conclusion of these raids.  I can't imagine why anyone would consider something like having an informant within CLAWS to be a potentially gainful exercise, why their first instinct might not be to discourage it or (lol) inform CLAWS directly.  These are the people you choose to keep as friends.

Certainly, it's easy to fall back to the tradition of violently overreacting to ultimately minor information leaks when these spying events occur (or complete non-events as in this case), but nothing exists in a vacuum.  But hey, they got their war excuse out of it.  They got what they wanted out of it, leaving you in the unenviable position of trying to provide them with moral clout.

[Thrash]

[Stewie]

TL;DR?

 

Can someone summarise this thread

[Tankobite]

2 minutes ago, Stewie said:

TL;DR?

 

Can someone summarise this thread

CLAWS at war with TIE. Everyone but CLAWS and TIE discussing it.

[lilweirdward]

3 minutes ago, Stewie said:

TL;DR?

 

Can someone summarise this thread

 

TL;DR: People miss arguing about CBs, and this is a very nice, legitimate CB to argue about (citation needed) (disputed).

[Thrash]

7 minutes ago, Tankobite said:

CLAWS at war with TIE. Everyone but CLAWS and TIE discussing it.

 

Lol, yeah that about sums it up, but I am enjoying it, so kudos.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Thrash

[Stewie]

6 minutes ago, Tankobite said:

CLAWS at war with TIE. Everyone but CLAWS and TIE discussing it.

 

Sounds about right for the peanut gallery.

 

1 minute ago, lilweirdward said:

 

TL;DR: People miss arguing about CBs, and this is a very nice, legitimate CB to argue about (citation needed) (disputed).

 

Awesome.  Cheers! 

 

Espionage is a legitimate CB. 

 

Go about your business citizens 

[The Big Bad]

9 hours ago, Lord Hitchcock said:

 

LOLz deflection, let me put it into words that you can understand.

 

 

I can not imagine CLAWS finding 5 alliances active enough to attack anybody.  

[Tankobite]

3 minutes ago, The Big Bad said:

 

I can not imagine CLAWS finding 5 alliances active enough to attack anybody.  

He’s going through a difficult time. Clearly fighting “five alliances” is an overwhelming situation and he has to lash out in the only way he can express himself—verbal diarrhea and terrible mspaint

[HeroofTime55]

32 minutes ago, lilweirdward said:

 

TL;DR: People miss arguing about CBs, and this is a very nice, legitimate CB to argue about (citation needed) (disputed).

We take what we can get at this point...

[Rebel Virginia]

Have I reminded everyone today that CLAWS is a garbage alliance?

[Tevron]

10 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said:

Reporting spying activity to a neutral third party is in no way similar to reporting spying activity to an adversary that is engaged in active efforts to destroy you.  Just saying, these are totally different matters entirely. 

 

 

Let me just emphasize this for the umpteenth time. It's irrelevant whether you learn of espionage from a member of your own alliance, from a spy, from an androgynous space alien, from a jerkwad or a nice guy. What matters is the content. 

 

Yes, we can look at the motivations of the individual who passed it on, but we don't need to pretend that has a bearing on the decisions made in response to the logs: and it shouldn't. Allowing a source's motivations to get in the way of a response is shoddy decision-making at worst and risky at best.

 

10 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said:

There is plenty of documentation about the behavior of CLAWS and their proxies/raiding parties, and their extended efforts to assault the COBRA-associated group of micro alliances.

The moral posturing is doubly rich when your allied government in CLAWS goes around conducting piracy against targets they see as vulnerable.  For instance:

 

Al Bundy having been listed on Discord as CLAWS gov during these raids, and welcomed back with open arms into CLAWS high gov at the conclusion of these raids.  I can't imagine why anyone would consider something like having an informant within CLAWS to be a potentially gainful exercise, why their first instinct might not be to discourage it or (lol) inform CLAWS directly.  These are the people you choose to keep as friends.

Certainly, it's easy to fall back to the tradition of violently overreacting to ultimately minor information leaks when these spying events occur (or complete non-events as in this case), but nothing exists in a vacuum.  But hey, they got their war excuse out of it.  They got what they wanted out of it, leaving you in the unenviable position of trying to provide them with moral clout.

 

I like how you've changed subjects entirely in a search of relevant counterpoints. So now Lucius was serious? Is it because you read his post finally?

 

How do DBDC raids on Fark, RIA and OG as well as the mis-raid on MHA (which was peaced after initial attacks) have anything to do with the CLAWS DoW? If say, Fark, believed in this as a valid CB wouldn't they have declared war or reached out diplomatically? It's news to me if either have happened.

[AL Bundy]

15 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said:

Reporting spying activity to a neutral third party is in no way similar to reporting spying activity to an adversary that is engaged in active efforts to destroy you.  Just saying, these are totally different matters entirely.  There is plenty of documentation about the behavior of CLAWS and their proxies/raiding parties, and their extended efforts to assault the COBRA-associated group of micro alliances.

The moral posturing is doubly rich when your allied government in CLAWS goes around conducting piracy against targets they see as vulnerable.  For instance:

 

Al Bundy having been listed on Discord as CLAWS gov during these raids, and welcomed back with open arms into CLAWS high gov at the conclusion of these raids.  I can't imagine why anyone would consider something like having an informant within CLAWS to be a potentially gainful exercise, why their first instinct might not be to discourage it or (lol) inform CLAWS directly.  These are the people you choose to keep as friends.

Certainly, it's easy to fall back to the tradition of violently overreacting to ultimately minor information leaks when these spying events occur (or complete non-events as in this case), but nothing exists in a vacuum.  But hey, they got their war excuse out of it.  They got what they wanted out of it, leaving you in the unenviable position of trying to provide them with moral clout.

You were welcome to do something about it. Ill wait here... 

 

I was a doombird, I was removed from CLAWS discords gov pages and RFI. Cant a guy try out another alliance anymore?  Anyone...ANYONE was welcome to do something about my raids. No one did so get over your incompetence. I did not hide in the shadows, try to get a spy in an alliance.  I raid openly for some action in the game, not sit around and count my pixels. 

 

AL

Edited September 29, 2020 by AL Bundy

[General Kanabis]

On 9/28/2020 at 6:31 AM, Lord Hitchcock said:

deflection

 

 

You had a good run.

 

I do like the mustache though, very accurate.

 

And not to derail the thread even further but our police department has just released this perp sketch of the meddling menace himself!

 

I'm sure CLAWS will sympathize with our cause to curb any and all attacks upon our Alliance and its integrity, given the subject matter at hand.

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by General Kanabis

[General Kanabis]

2 hours ago, AL Bundy said:

You were welcome to do something about it. Ill wait here... 

 

I was a doombird, I was removed from CLAWS discords gov pages and RFI. Cant a guy try out another alliance anymore?  Anyone...ANYONE was welcome to do something about my raids. No one did so get over your incompetence. I did not hide in the shadows, try to get a spy in an alliance.  I raid openly for some action in the game, not sit around and count my pixels. 

 

AL

 

I think you make an excellent (if somewhat uncomfortable) point in that absolutely no one challenged you.

Not directly, of course, given your size.

The people who were very outspoken about all of this broadcasted the sentiment to minimal effect. I was one of them.

And because of that, I have come to accept that the blame lies mostly with the collection of spineless cowards that sit upon their pixels, ever waiting for "the big one".

If your allies appeared on the DBDC war page within the last 3 years, shame on you. 

 

But you have to understand what it looks like when you go hunting in such a controlled environment. At a certain point, can you even call it hunting anymore?

 

 

 

I mean, it's certainly effective, not to mention safe, but do you even enjoy it?

[AL Bundy]

12 minutes ago, General Kanabis said:

 

I think you make an excellent (if somewhat uncomfortable) point in that absolutely no one challenged you.

Not directly, of course, given your size.

The people who were very outspoken about all of this broadcasted the sentiment to minimal effect. I was one of them.

And because of that, I have come to accept that the blame lies mostly with the collection of spineless cowards that sit upon their pixels, ever waiting for "the big one".

If your allies appeared on the DBDC war page within the last 3 years, shame on you. 

 

But you have to understand what it looks like when you go hunting in such a controlled environment. At a certain point, can you even call it hunting anymore?

 

 

 

I mean, it's certainly effective, not to mention safe, but do you even enjoy it?

I mean, controlled environment?? So your meaning steeldor? He cant reach below a certain strength level, so staying 10k below it and you still can easily reached me. So you rather id stayed in CLAWS and raid were there are 5 times as many nation in range to defend me vs the 7 nations in doom?  I just dont see the logic... but hey, I'm just an ol' women's shoe salesman.... what do i know....

 

AL

[Lord Hitchcock]

46 minutes ago, General Kanabis said:

it’s integrity

I’ve seen a lot of PR reaching- but let’s talk about trying to sell ice in a blizzard.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Lord Hitchcock