CLAWS Memo Re: WFH - For Immediate Release

[HeroofTime55]

Just now, DeathAdder said:

 

Nah. I've given you enough attention this month. Run along now.

I'll let you know when I start caring about your attention, but thanks for participating I guess.

[DeathAdder]

1 minute ago, HeroofTime55 said:

*Tries to deflect by pretending not to care*

 

Better things to do. Have fun with the special olympics, Lowsten.

[HeroofTime55]

3 minutes ago, James Spanier said:

 

I've never liked ghosting for raiding purposes.

 

The antagonism cut both ways, and often the next one was justified by the existence of the previous one, with both sides fully aware all they were doing was spinning the wheel around and around, a little faster each time.

 

Relative might can indeed determine if war is declared or not, however, situation does also determine if diplomacy is bothered with at all. Who do you suppose CLAWS would talk to and what about in this situation that wouldn't just result in war anyway?

Idunno.  Hard to say.  I do know that COBRA and company have been trying to calm the tensions, but CLAWS and company seem intent on provoking a confrontation.  If CLAWS came forth and said they wanted to put an end to the cycle, I'm sure people across the divide would have listened.

[HeroofTime55]

2 minutes ago, DeathAdder said:

 

Better things to do. Have fun with the special olympics, Lowsten.

Unlike an airport, there is no need to announce your departure.  Take care, friend.

[Kapleo]

46 minutes ago, DeathAdder said:

 

Better things to do. Have fun with the special olympics, Lowsten.

You won't be missed. 

[jerdge]

1 hour ago, James Spanier said:

Again I'll stake out the position that when it's the AA leader in question, there isn't much to talk about.

I basically agree with everything else you said but I don't really get this part. Diplomacy can and has historically been used to deal with aggressive and/or offending leaders. This not to say that anyone has to try diplomacy in these circumstances, but definitely to say that anyone can do it, and it does make sense.

Unless the intended outcome of an attack involves forcibly replacing the target's leadership, in fact - which is not unheard of, but still a very rare situation - eventually the attacker will sit down at the negotiation table with the leader(s) they had been offended by. In principle nothing prevents it to happen before the armed conflict takes place, too.

This, again, not to say that whoever decided to go to war in this case should have made another decision, just to say that their decision has been a choice.

 

About CBs in general, I'd like to point out that a CB is literally the reason for a war, nothing more than that. As long as the ones acting on it are fine with their choice, there can not be a bad/invalid CB. Decisions and actions may be bad/invalid, in which case the acting party may suffer consequences on their standing, but their CB is their rationale, a fact, it's up to them only to decide about its "validity".

 

As for this conflict, I don't care. It's not neutrality, I simply don't give a damn about anything anymore. I just still like logic and discussing stuff, hence this post.

[jerdge]

Double post.

 

Edited September 27, 2020 by jerdge
double

[James Spanier]

12 minutes ago, jerdge said:

I basically agree with everything else you said but I don't really get this part. Diplomacy can and has historically been used to deal with aggressive and/or offending leaders. This not to say that anyone has to try diplomacy in these circumstances, but definitely to say that anyone can do it, and it does make sense.

Unless the intended outcome of an attack involves forcibly replacing the target's leadership, in fact - which is not unheard of, but still a very rare situation - eventually the attacker will sit down at the negotiation table with the leader(s) they had been offended by. In principle nothing prevents it to happen before the armed conflict takes place, too.

This, again, not to say that whoever decided to go to war in this case should have made another decision, just to say that their decision has been a choice.

 

Could CLAWS have approached TIE to try for a diplomatic solution? You're right, it's not mechanically impossible. However a far more valuable question is what could possibly have been accomplished by tipping your hand on this matter? What are the historical examples I'm not aware of where an AA leader (not gov member, but leader) engaged in an attempt to establish a network intended for espionage (sorry HoT) in an AA, was caught, and diplomacy was used successfully to deal with it? I can't even imagine how the subject could be broached unless at least one of the involved parties was a protectorate, which fundamentally changes the dynamic.

[HeroofTime55]

Air quotes!  Sheesh.  I find it hard to construe Lucius's words as serious.  Had they been approached, I am sure it would have been cleared up as non-serious fluff, said to one guy who approached multiple people with offers to be a spy until one made the mistake of not showing them to the door.

One chat log, provided by the same guy who was going around asking anyone if they would like him to spy, is very little evidence that there was ever any actual plot on the part of TIE.  Lucius's primary error was giving this guy the time of day.

[James Spanier]

The exchange I've read definitely does not read as 'just a prank bro'. JA's passionate attempt to justify it as a necessary response to CLAWS aggression also discredits the idea it wasn't serious. Maybe it wasn't a high energy effort, but it was definitely desired and not merely 'fluff'. Subjective on my part it may be to take that position. I'm unsure how Lucius could provide evidence to support he wasn't serious, which means it'd be his words against...his words. Who do you believe, past Lucius talking to someone who admits he thought at the time was a friend, or present Lucius scrambling to respond to accusations?

 

Lucius's primary error was indeed giving TDE and the concept of an intel collection ring within his enemies the time of day, and this will hopefully serve as a valuable lesson.

[Tevron]

3 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said:

Still, good to see CN going back to old school roots here, where we can argue for pages upon pages about CBs.  Feels good.

 

Imagine if the Big Bad didn't spend 80% of the time circlejerking about the old days while also deciding a few paragraphs of text are too much for him. Just fyi TBB, you can stop reading this thread now, the rest isn't about you. I don't want to strain your eyes.

 

3 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said:

Hold on, back up.  Refusing some nobody's out-of-the-blue offer to spy for you is a CB?  Damned if you do, damned if you don't, eh? 

 

You've got to actually read the posts you respond to, otherwise you come off as a third string micro-leader from 2010 or whatever. 

 

2 hours ago, DeathAdder said:

I've heard of both of you. TBB has successfully taken up Starfox's old position as the NpO Mouthpiece that everyone ignores as he attempts to not-so-subtly rewrite history by pretending any CB on here was at all valid and not just accepted because of the power projected by the one issuing it at the time, while citing no actual examples of the supposed "just CB's" that 'used to happen on Bob'. And which no one else can remember.

 

You're just tagging along as his mouthbreathing entourage in hopes of finally, after all of these years, stumbling your way into writing something profoundly revealing to the community.

 

I think that covers it.

Quoted purely for truth.

 

2 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said:

Idunno.  Hard to say. [snip]

Yes, Cobrasphere has been reaching out to soften relations for a while, but your mistake is viewing the improving relations as some sort of magic catch-all that changes the facts of the CB.  Lucius has already publicly acknowledged them. I don't know if you're as incapable of reading long lines of text as TBB, but if you aren't, you can view Lucius' announcement and return.

 

2 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said:

but CLAWS and company seem intent on provoking a confrontation

Had they actually had the intent to do so, they would've just asked attacked earlier for one of the half dozen reasons Lowsten made up as examples. Hell, if they were looking for a fight they could have highlighted the pattern of placing spies in CLAWS even and used that as justification to attack cobrasphere as a whole. I do not doubt the capability for CLAWS to have organized a merciless and aggressive coalition to roll the entire sphere into the ground. They already have made the choice not to and continue to do so. The frequent baiting re; the KNBDBDC conspiracy theory is good !@#$posting and all, but if CLAWS endorsed them they would've already defended them.

 

38 minutes ago, HeroofTime55 said:

I find it hard to construe Lucius's words as serious.

Then maybe go look at his thread where he acknowledges what happened. See above.
 

38 minutes ago, HeroofTime55 said:

  Had they been approached, I am sure it would have been cleared up as non-serious fluff, said to one guy who approached multiple people with offers to be a spy until one made the mistake of not showing them to the door.

How would CLAWS have known that unless those alliances actually came to CLAWS to begin with? Sure, if they had a crystal ball maybe they could've tipped their hand that they were aware of the effort and then just cross their fingers and hope it works out, but ultimately this would've only been able to be avoided if one of those people who had been approached had passed it on.

 

I recall a time when one nation ruler told me he was going to spy on RnR and asked if I wanted intel, I passed that information onto their alliance, even though I wasn't connected, because espionage is dumbsauce and there are standards that I hold myself and other people to. It is very likely that the correct answer in this situation was as follows:

1) Do not accept solicitation from parties who want to spy on another alliance.

2) Warn that alliance that this individual is intending to spy on them or out them publicly as a spy.

 

I think Lucius' personal relationship is what stopped this from happening, and it is also likely why JA didn't tell CLAWS even though he apparently knew that this was happening. Of course, that's my speculation, except it's based on peoples' posts and not just my feelings.

 

38 minutes ago, HeroofTime55 said:

One chat log, provided by the same guy who was going around asking anyone if they would like him to spy, is very little evidence that there was ever any actual plot on the part of TIE. 

I really cannot comprehend how someone can have direct logs that state that they would like a intel network in CLAWS and you still somehow choose to believe that the individual did not say that. Did I get Mandela Effected here or something? Maybe you're from the worldline where there were no logs.

Edited September 27, 2020 by Tevron
Some grammar

[Tankobite]

2 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said:

I mean, by this metric, CLAWS has been a veritable CB factory against plenty of others, openly antagonizing several parties, not the least of which are COBRA and her allies of course, but also the various DBDC raid targets (hello Al Bundy who was still listed as CLAWS gov for much of those festivities).  It does boil down to relative might, of course.  CLAWS are big boys with big allies, so they can get away with it, and then turn around and act offended at a rather slight violation and use it as an excuse.  Same as it's always been from the dawn of time.

 

But you HAVE heard of me

In my experience, being told you’re irrelevant is the counter the major powers tend to use in OWF when you make points they can’t seem to counter.

[HeroofTime55]

8 minutes ago, Tevron said:

 

Imagine if the Big Bad didn't spend 80% of the time circlejerking about the old days while also deciding a few paragraphs of text are too much for him. Just fyi TBB, you can stop reading this thread now, the rest isn't about you. I don't want to strain your eyes.

 

 

You've got to actually read the posts you respond to, otherwise you come off as a third string micro-leader from 2010 or whatever. 

 

Quoted purely for truth.

 

Yes, Cobrasphere has been reaching out to soften relations for a while, but your mistake is viewing the improving relations as some sort of magic catch-all that changes the facts of the CB.  Lucius has already publicly acknowledged them. I don't know if you're as incapable of reading long lines of text as TBB, but if you aren't, you can view his announcement and return.

 

Had they actually been intent to do so, they would've just asked attacked for earlier for one of the half dozen reasons Lowsten made up as examples. Hell, if they were looking for a fight they could have highlighted the pattern of placing spies in CLAWS even and used that as justification to attack cobrasphere as a whole. I do not doubt the capability for CLAWS to have organized a merciless and aggressive coalition to roll the entire sphere into the ground. They already have made the choice not to and continue to do so. The frequent baiting re; the KNBDBDC conspiracy theory is good !@#$posting and all, but if CLAWS endorsed them they would've already defended them.

 

Then maybe go look at his thread where he acknowledges what happened. See above.
 

How would CLAWS have known that unless those alliances actually came to CLAWS to begin with? Sure, if they had a crystal ball maybe they could've tipped their hand that they were aware of the effort and then just cross their fingers and hope it works out, but ultimately this would've only been able to be avoided if one of those people who had been approached had passed it on.

 

I recall a time when one nation ruler told me he was going to spy on RnR and asked if I wanted intel, I passed that information onto their alliance, even though I wasn't connected, because espionage is dumbsauce and there are standards that I hold myself and other people to. It is very likely that the correct answer in this situation was as follows:

1) Do not accept solicitation from parties who want to spy on another alliance.

2) Warn that alliance that this individual is intending to spy on them or out them publicly as a spy.

 

I think Lucius' personal relationship is what stopped this from happening, and it is also likely why JA didn't tell CLAWS even though he apparently knew that this was happening. Of course, that's my speculation, except it's based on peoples' posts and not just my feelings.

 

I really cannot comprehend how someone can have direct logs that state that they would like a intel network in CLAWS and you still somehow choose to believe that the individual did not say that. Did I get Mandela Effected here or something? Maybe you're from the worldline where there were no logs.

I appreciate this novella dedicated entirely to me.  Hard to find a place to begin with it.  I am definitely adding "third string micro leader from 2010" to my sig accolades, though.

One point that is omitted, is that Lucius has stated his history of getting attacked for reporting spies, by the party he reported them to.  Another omitted point, is the ongoing and persistent hostility that CLAWS continues to exhibit towards this micro sphere.  Hard to judge the guy for not coming forward, though I don't dispute that having any conversation whatsoever with this nobody wannabe "spy" was an error, in as much as it was probably due to a prior "friendship" with the nobody.

I also never said that Lucius didn't say what text was clearly stated in the logs.  What I dispute is the seriousness of the intent behind those words.  An old "friend" came up to him, and it read more of a "sure thing buddy, whatever" type deal to send him on his way.  Wrong?  I guess, in as much as people on all sides of this have mocked spying in this game as the usual, unimpactful boring affair it tends to be (oh my god, out of date guides were stolen, the horror).  That's one of the other reasons I can't help but read the phrase "spy network" as anything other than a tremendous joke.  If it's as "dumbsauce" as you think it is (a correct assessment), then why care so much?

As far as the new requirement you are trying to make, that one must actively report to hostile adversaries that someone else is running around promising to spy on them, that's just a bit silly isn't it?  Given CLAWS history of aggression towards this micro sphere, why in the hell would they want to go out of their way to do any favors for CLAWS?  Lucius certainly should have shut the door on this guy, that much is true enough, but come on, that's just silly talk.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

34 minutes ago, HeroofTime55 said:

As far as the new requirement you are trying to make, that one must actively report to hostile adversaries that someone else is running around promising to spy on them, that's just a bit silly isn't it?  Given CLAWS history of aggression towards this micro sphere, why in the hell would they want to go out of their way to do any favors for CLAWS?  Lucius certainly should have shut the door on this guy, that much is true enough, but come on, that's just silly talk.

 

Just popping in to agree with this sentiment and express that I seriously doubt the same courtesy would be afforded to myself or my allies by certain people if they were privy to such information. Had Banned not chimed in to inform us all that the mastermind who leaked the screenshots was in fact himself, acquired by his own labour of espionage against us, which implicated Lucius as guilty of espionage against CLAWS with a view to providing CLAWS a casus belli to launch an attack? I imagine I could still be speculating as to who was responsible for passing on this information, because I doubt I would've been given an answer by anyone else involved.

 

Especially considering the answer reveals that it was one of their own (whether he flies their flag or not; it is clear where his loyalties lie and who his bedfellows are) who provided those screenshots and had been engaging in open and covert operations against us for quite some time before they received those screenshots. I'm not disputing the validity of the CB (because while I have strange tastes? Giving myself a migraine isn't one of them) I'm just speculating about the lead up to all of this and which (if any) parties knew about any actions that were being pursued with malicious intent toward COBRA. Why? Because what I infer from certain posts in this thread is that I would be justified in declaring war for any instance of non-disclosure of information on anyone I was not on PIAT-level terms with.

 

Tevron; you asked me why I did not damn Lucius' actions and I gave you an answer. Yet you yielded no answer regarding whether you damn the behaviour (which has included espionage) of your tertiary ally (and friend, as I understand no?) who has been acting belligerently to me and mine for some time. You cited two values earlier on which you claim to uphold, I trust that you held true to them and were otherwise oblivious to the schemes of your friend- at least up until a week ago when the intelligence was passed to your bloc-mate. If this is not the case? Well I certainly don't expect you to actually admit it here so I'll just leave it at that.

[Lord Hitchcock]

9 minutes ago, Johnny Apocalypse said:

 

Just popping in to agree with this sentiment and express that I seriously doubt the same courtesy would be afforded to myself or my allies by certain people if they were privy to such information. Had Banned not chimed in to inform us all that the mastermind who leaked the screenshots was in fact himself, acquired by his own labour of espionage against us, which implicated Lucius as guilty of espionage against CLAWS with a view to providing CLAWS a casus belli to launch an attack? I imagine I could still be speculating as to who was responsible for passing on this information, because I doubt I would've been given an answer by anyone else involved.

 

Especially considering the answer reveals that it was one of their own (whether he flies their flag or not; it is clear where his loyalties lie and who his bedfellows are) who provided those screenshots and had been engaging in open and covert operations against us for quite some time before they received those screenshots. I'm not disputing the validity of the CB (because while I have strange tastes? Giving myself a migraine isn't one of them) I'm just speculating about the lead up to all of this and which (if any) parties knew about any actions that were being pursued with malicious intent toward COBRA. Why? Because what I infer from certain posts in this thread is that I would be justified in declaring war for any instance of non-disclosure of information on anyone I was not on PIAT-level terms with.

You could’ve prevented a lot of this had ya of been this diplomatic before everything blew up in your face.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

Just now, Lord Hitchcock said:

You could’ve prevented a lot of this had ya of been this diplomatic before everything blew up in your face.

 

Oh look, it's the fart that won't dissipate. Have you got some kind of alert system set up for whenever I make a post? 

 

Get a hobby or something dude, the way you're following me around is a bit obsessive at this point.

[General Kanabis]

2 hours ago, Tevron said:

I do not doubt the capability for CLAWS to have organized a merciless and aggressive coalition to roll the entire sphere into the ground.

 

It's easy to doubt/believe what is conveniently inconceivable 

In no scenario does CLAWS fight COBRAlition on their own.

 

Not that this has much to do with organizational capabilities- the framework which prevents that eventuality is more political than anything.

We may never know!

Edited September 28, 2020 by General Kanabis

[Banned]

32 minutes ago, Johnny Apocalypse said:

 

Just popping in to agree with this sentiment and express that I seriously doubt the same courtesy would be afforded to myself or my allies by certain people if they were privy to such information. Had Banned not chimed in to inform us all that the mastermind who leaked the screenshots was in fact himself, acquired by his own labour of espionage against us, which implicated Lucius as guilty of espionage against CLAWS with a view to providing CLAWS a casus belli to launch an attack? I imagine I could still be speculating as to who was responsible for passing on this information, because I doubt I would've been given an answer by anyone else involved.

 

Especially considering the answer reveals that it was one of their own (whether he flies their flag or not; it is clear where his loyalties lie and who his bedfellows are) who provided those screenshots and had been engaging in open and covert operations against us for quite some time before they received those screenshots. I'm not disputing the validity of the CB (because while I have strange tastes? Giving myself a migraine isn't one of them) I'm just speculating about the lead up to all of this and which (if any) parties knew about any actions that were being pursued with malicious intent toward COBRA. Why? Because what I infer from certain posts in this thread is that I would be justified in declaring war for any instance of non-disclosure of information on anyone I was not on PIAT-level terms with.

 

Tevron; you asked me why I did not damn Lucius' actions and I gave you an answer. Yet you yielded no answer regarding whether you damn the behaviour (which has included espionage) of your tertiary ally (and friend, as I understand no?) who has been acting belligerently to me and mine for some time. You cited two values earlier on which you claim to uphold, I trust that you held true to them and were otherwise oblivious to the schemes of your friend- at least up until a week ago when the intelligence was passed to your bloc-mate. If this is not the case? Well I certainly don't expect you to actually admit it here so I'll just leave it at that.

So... because the information came from somebody with treaty ties who considers themselves to be a member of the alliance that the information leaked both targeted and was sent to, the information is less valid?  I also said I consider myself a member of a number of alliances.  What of it?  Or is it supposed to because I said some things that hurt your fragile ego?  None of that changes the fact that Lucius, by the admission of his own screenshots, attempted to secure information from a person he believed to be an asset, and further attempted to convince that same perceived asset to secure a staff or government position in foreign affairs to acquire what he believed would be more valuable information. 

 

Not sorry about your hurt feelings though.

[Lord Hitchcock]

51 minutes ago, General Kanabis said:

 

In no scenario does CLAWS fight COBRAlition on their own.

 

That’s rich coming from a ‘sphere’ that has 5 alliances declaring a 10-nation micro..

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Lord Hitchcock

[HeroofTime55]

29 minutes ago, Banned said:

I also said I consider myself a member of a number of alliances.  What of it?

 

Such as DBDC I would presume?  At least we've cleared up the cute little reps extortion thing now.  Good show.

 

8 minutes ago, Lord Hitchcock said:

That’s rich coming from a ‘sphere’ that has 5 alliances declaring a 10-nation micro..

 

 

You trying to play the victim here is quite incredible.  Good lord.

[General Kanabis]

7 minutes ago, Lord Hitchcock said:

That’s rich coming from a ‘sphere’ that has 5 alliances declaring a 10-nation micro..

 

You mustn't hold others accountable for your widespread status as "automatic CB"

 

[Kapleo]

12 minutes ago, Lord Hitchcock said:

That’s rich coming from a ‘sphere’ that has 5 alliances declaring a 10-nation micro..

 

Poor innocent LH, he did absolutely nothing to deserve this. Totally the victim of the story. 

[Lord Hitchcock]

26 minutes ago, HeroofTime55 said:

You trying to play the victim here is quite incredible.  Good lord.

 

26 minutes ago, General Kanabis said:

You mustn't hold others accountable for your widespread status as "automatic CB"

 

 

18 minutes ago, Kapleo said:

Poor innocent LH, he did absolutely nothing to deserve this. Totally the victim of the story. 

 

I'm not playing the victim card- we really don't care (honest).

 

You can call me a 'Troll', call me an 'antagonist', but it's valid statement. And frankly it's the entirety of why the COBRAlition is in situation that they are in. General Kanabis, you can't sit there and get all mad at CLAWs for what COBRAsphere does themselves. I hope they beat the hell TIE, you numbskulls just don't get it.

[Tankobite]

42 minutes ago, Lord Hitchcock said:

That’s rich coming from a ‘sphere’ that has 5 alliances declaring a 10-nation micro..

 

I’m really sorry to hear that you’re having a rough time. You’ve made it quite clear how difficult this is for you.

 

TIE officially extends its sympathies and hopes you will find the strength to persevere in these trying times. 

[General Kanabis]

18 minutes ago, Lord Hitchcock said:

I hope they beat the hell TIE, you numbskulls just don't get it.

 

Get what exactly?

Your attention?

Oh we get plenty of it. And it's a surplus!