CLAWS Memo Re: WFH - For Immediate Release

[General Kanabis]

3 minutes ago, Lord Hitchcock said:

much better than the ones who let their friends burn.

 

You led Wagons and Jonesing into NG because you thought it would be an easy win. "Ducks ina row" wasn't that what you called it? And then you dwindled out of existence for some time because you didn't get your way, while those who stayed and fought the duration of that conflict were left to regroup and care for our fallen comrades when they had finally had enough.

 

Where you let your friends burn out of futility and despair,

We begrudgingly accept the trial by fire of ours.

 

[General Kanabis]

30 minutes ago, Master Hakai said:

It's the battle of the century and we have these guys

 

versus these guys

 

 

Who ya got? I'm undecided but leaning toward the sexy animal costumes. Still anybody's fight though!

 

I wonder what they will call this one

[The Big Bad]

Lets just some this up.  Is it a flimsy CB?  Yes.  Would it have passed mustard back in the day when such things mattered, no.  Do such things matter in this near dead world? No.  Is CLAWS going to war because they are bored and need a boost in activity?  Of course  At this point can anybody blaim them?  Nope.  

[Lord Hitchcock]

30 minutes ago, General Kanabis said:

 

You led Wagons and Jonesing into NG because you thought it would be an easy win. "Ducks ina row" wasn't that what you called it? And then you dwindled out of existence for some time because you didn't get your way, while those who stayed and fought the duration of that conflict were left to regroup and care for our fallen comrades when they had finally had enough.

 

Where you let your friends burn out of futility and despair,

We begrudgingly accept the trial by fire of ours.

 

There is a big difference between people ghosting on their own accord vs others burning for other’s actions.
 

Wagons, Jonesing, and Murtibing are not babies GK, nor did I ever raise them that way. Yes we share a bond and they know they have my love.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Lord Hitchcock

[General Kanabis]

19 minutes ago, Lord Hitchcock said:

There is a big difference between people ghosting on their own accord vs others burning for other’s actions.
 

Wagons, Jonesing, and Murtibing are not babies GK, nor did I ever raise them that way. Yes we share a bond and they know they have my love.

 

I can't deny any of that, but they threw in the towel earlier than most, and not because they lacked in spirit, but because they were unprepared for the one-way onslaught you led them into.

When you go in assured it will be a quick win, and then behold the opposite, it can be said that you are effectively burning for the actions of others.

 

The Imperial Entente may be unprepared in a similar fashion, but their resolve is something you are contesting without yet observing its fullness. 

[James Spanier]

2 minutes ago, The Big Bad said:

Lets just some this up.  Is it a flimsy CB?  Yes.  Would it have passed mustard back in the day when such things mattered, no.  Do such things matter in this near dead world? No.  Is CLAWS going to war because they are bored and need a boost in activity?  Of course  At this point can anybody blaim them?  Nope.  

 

Ah yes, we have such great historical CB's that started global wars as "Doom lmao", "For Dave!" (note that Dave's crime he was being "protected" from was espionage), and "Past grievances." To say nothing of conflicts that boil down to "you're toxic!" or smaller wars with great reasons like "you suck!"

 

What if we look for wars where espionage was cited? In no particular order:

PNU-Polar War (February 2013) - PNU uses Polar's guides.

PB-NpO War (January 2011) - Polar accepts intel on VE.

Great War III (March 2007) - GATO accused of spying on Pacifica and "harboring intentions of hostility."

Karma War (April 2009) - OV accepts stolen screenshots.

Legion-Tetris War (October 2011) - Tetris member reposts screenshots of Legion's forums.

Legion-Valhalla War (August 2007) - Legion members spy on Valhalla.

TPF War (December 2009) - Athens says TPF sent spies to Athens during Karma War.

Eight Minute War (April 2009) - MK accuses UBD of espionage.

Second Polar War (May 2006) - NAAC accused of spying on Pacifica.

NPO-BDC War (July 2008) - BDC MoFA idles in Pacifican private IRC channels for a few hours.

Citrus War (February 2006) - ODN spy self inserts into Pacifica.

SOS Brigade-NsO War (June 2011) - NsO attempts espionage and poaching on SOS Brigade.

Wolfpack War (March 2008) - Wolfpack accused of spying on IRON and one of their protectorates.

 

These are ones I remembered or got just randomly clicking around on the wiki. Keep in mind, several of these wars happened merely on allegations, they didn't have clear screenies of gov members sponsoring this behavior. There are bound to be more examples, and as you see, they date all the way back to 2006. So can you please tell me when "back in the day" was?

[Thrash]

4 hours ago, James Spanier said:

 

Ah yes, we have such great historical CB's that started global wars as "Doom lmao", "For Dave!" (note that Dave's crime he was being "protected" from was espionage), and "Past grievances." To say nothing of conflicts that boil down to "you're toxic!" or smaller wars with great reasons like "you suck!"

 

What if we look for wars where espionage was cited? In no particular order:

PNU-Polar War (February 2013) - PNU uses Polar's guides.

PB-NpO War (January 2011) - Polar accepts intel on VE.

Great War III (March 2007) - GATO accused of spying on Pacifica and "harboring intentions of hostility."

Karma War (April 2009) - OV accepts stolen screenshots.

Legion-Tetris War (October 2011) - Tetris member reposts screenshots of Legion's forums.

Legion-Valhalla War (August 2007) - Legion members spy on Valhalla.

TPF War (December 2009) - Athens says TPF sent spies to Athens during Karma War.

Eight Minute War (April 2009) - MK accuses UBD of espionage.

Second Polar War (May 2006) - NAAC accused of spying on Pacifica.

NPO-BDC War (July 2008) - BDC MoFA idles in Pacifican private IRC channels for a few hours.

Citrus War (February 2006) - ODN spy self inserts into Pacifica.

SOS Brigade-NsO War (June 2011) - NsO attempts espionage and poaching on SOS Brigade.

Wolfpack War (March 2008) - Wolfpack accused of spying on IRON and one of their protectorates.

 

These are ones I remembered or got just randomly clicking around on the wiki. Keep in mind, several of these wars happened merely on allegations, they didn't have clear screenies of gov members sponsoring this behavior. There are bound to be more examples, and as you see, they date all the way back to 2006. So can you please tell me when "back in the day" was?

 

Missing the one where NPO hit Invicta for "plotting."

[James Spanier]

Just now, Thrash said:

 

Missing the one where NPO hit Invicta for "plotting."

 

I mean that would have been more fitting in the first paragraph about wars with shaky CB's, but I didn't want it to get too long.

[janax]

2 hours ago, James Spanier said:

 

I mean that would have been more fitting in the first paragraph about wars with shaky CB's, but I didn't want it to get too long.

So many words.  🙄

 

CBs, now and then, as exactly as "valid" as the force you can project.  Nothing has changed.  Nothing will change.  

 

Lowsten is terrible even if he managed to get it right this time.

[The Big Bad]

18 hours ago, James Spanier said:

 

Ah yes, we have such great historical CB's that started global wars as "Doom lmao", "For Dave!" (note that Dave's crime he was being "protected" from was espionage), and "Past grievances." To say nothing of conflicts that boil down to "you're toxic!" or smaller wars with great reasons like "you suck!"

 

What if we look for wars where espionage was cited? In no particular order:

PNU-Polar War (February 2013) - PNU uses Polar's guides.

PB-NpO War (January 2011) - Polar accepts intel on VE.

Great War III (March 2007) - GATO accused of spying on Pacifica and "harboring intentions of hostility."

Karma War (April 2009) - OV accepts stolen screenshots.

Legion-Tetris War (October 2011) - Tetris member reposts screenshots of Legion's forums.

Legion-Valhalla War (August 2007) - Legion members spy on Valhalla.

TPF War (December 2009) - Athens says TPF sent spies to Athens during Karma War.

Eight Minute War (April 2009) - MK accuses UBD of espionage.

Second Polar War (May 2006) - NAAC accused of spying on Pacifica.

NPO-BDC War (July 2008) - BDC MoFA idles in Pacifican private IRC channels for a few hours.

Citrus War (February 2006) - ODN spy self inserts into Pacifica.

SOS Brigade-NsO War (June 2011) - NsO attempts espionage and poaching on SOS Brigade.

Wolfpack War (March 2008) - Wolfpack accused of spying on IRON and one of their protectorates.

 

These are ones I remembered or got just randomly clicking around on the wiki. Keep in mind, several of these wars happened merely on allegations, they didn't have clear screenies of gov members sponsoring this behavior. There are bound to be more examples, and as you see, they date all the way back to 2006. So can you please tell me when "back in the day" was?

 

You are  making my point.  There was a time when people cared and shoddy CB was called out, now nobody cares so why bother with it at all.  This one is at the Athens TPF level which nobody took serious not even the people starting the war.  You have to defend this, they have to attack it but for the rest of us who have no dog in the fight we don't care what crap CB you come up with just come out and say you wanted to attack them.  Their is no popular opinon to win over so a lame CB has no point.  Nobody cares any more. 

[HeroofTime55]

Can we all at least agree to put massive air quotes around the phrase "spy network" for the rest of this thread?  This is a war over fluff talk.  There have been worse CBs, but this is up there.

[Banned]

5 minutes ago, HeroofTime55 said:

Can we all at least agree to put massive air quotes around the phrase "spy network" for the rest of this thread?  This is a war over fluff talk.  There have been worse CBs, but this is up there.

CLAWS doesn't seem to think it's a very flimsy CB, and neither apparently do TIE's allies who seem to, while wanting to be "vocally supportive of our ally", seem to be unanimously saying they're not going to intervene militarily because Lucius messed up.

[HeroofTime55]

Just now, Banned said:

CLAWS doesn't seem to think it's a very flimsy CB, and neither apparently do TIE's allies who seem to, while wanting to be "vocally supportive of our ally", seem to be unanimously saying they're not going to intervene militarily because Lucius messed up.

What your pea brain thinks they're saying is completely distinct from what they have actually said.  I can at least speak from first hand knowledge that the only way TPF stays out of a fight is if their allies demand they stay out, several times and with very strong words.

[James Spanier]

30 minutes ago, The Big Bad said:

 

You are  making my point.  There was a time when people cared and shoddy CB was called out, now nobody cares so why bother with it at all.  This one is at the Athens TPF level which nobody took serious not even the people starting the war.  You have to defend this, they have to attack it but for the rest of us who have no dog in the fight we don't care what crap CB you come up with just come out and say you wanted to attack them.  Their is no popular opinon to win over so a lame CB has no point.  Nobody cares any more. 

 

Where to begin with your projectionism.

 

I'll humor you and avoid debating the merits of the CB in this response, though I have a feeling the only reason you wouldn't want to is because just about everyone involved (and a good few not involved) have conceded to the validity of the CB already.

 

First off, your own contradiction that nobody cares while also going out of your way to repeatedly decry the CB as shoddy within this thread. By stating your opinion in the thread you've established that you care, at least enough to build your own narrative around it (and then share it). Good on you, contributing to the community and helping to stave off the ever looming entropy of inactivity. You should really be more willing to recognize your own input as part of the discussion.

 

As for the the suggestion that two factions that have underlying tensions between them might want a fight with one another...I'm not sure why you think that it somehow makes or breaks the validity of the CB that eventually comes up. If Polar really wanted a fight with Argent and one of my members went and raided your nation, then when Buuyo DM'd me about it I told him to do something about it and blocked him, is that CB crap because Polar wanted the fight? Or because I implied I wanted it to happen? A CB is a CB, it stands (or doesn't) on its own merits. They can be fabricated or intentional sure, but they can also be (conveniently) valid. If you'd like to provide some reasoning for your stance on this particular CB and why it deserves a particular combination of descriptive words, by all means indulge.

 

To the larger point that CLAWS just really wanted this fight and should have just said so, as far as I can tell that's not actively the case here. There were several incidents that nearly led to war before this involving CLAWS and COBRAsphere, however they were all resolved. This instance had no real opportunity for diplomatic recourse and war resulted. If CLAWS really wanted this fight they could have cited some dumb dual membership thing with DBDC or even the Kids Next Door and forced a war over that. So far as I can tell most of their issues are with COBRA, so they could have also extrapolated the 'we' Lucius used in the logs to mean COBRA and opened a front with them. They could even use JA admitting he got the same sort of message from TDE as cause for war right now if that's all they wanted.

 

Finally, if you yourself say we have to defend this, but also posit that nobody uninvolved cares, why would anyone involved then care enough to cater to your demand to meet you at your level of dumbing things down into their most basic forms? If anything that sounds like a you problem.

[James Spanier]

19 minutes ago, HeroofTime55 said:

Can we all at least agree to put massive air quotes around the phrase "spy network" for the rest of this thread?  This is a war over fluff talk.  There have been worse CBs, but this is up there.

 

I mean, I'd say this CB is pretty middle of the road. Not attack on a protectorate with botched diplomacy tier but definitely ranking above the slew of wars that have fought over things like an AA/individual's disposition or mean things that were said. But I think we can all agree the most just war is the War on Communism CB.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Banned said:

CLAWS doesn't seem to think it's a very flimsy CB, and neither apparently do TIE's allies who seem to, while wanting to be "vocally supportive of our ally", seem to be unanimously saying they're not going to intervene militarily because Lucius messed up.

 

I mean they were pretty public about saying that TIE has requested they stay out. JA even spent a bunch of time laying the ground work for a counter-justification campaign, something only necessary if you plan to actually act. COBRAsphere is exactly the kind of group I'd picture when thinking of a one with the sentiment 'throw in for your allies right or wrong'. Though admittedly they also have a track record for strategic non-deployment as this isn't the first time, Kashmir was held out of a war that one time to avoid a larger conflict they believed was intended to target Polar. Coincidentally announced in a post by your very own Lord Hitchcock.

[HeroofTime55]

10 minutes ago, James Spanier said:

 

They could even use JA admitting he got the same sort of message from TDE as cause for war right now if that's all they wanted.

 

Hold on, back up.  Refusing some nobody's out-of-the-blue offer to spy for you is a CB?  Damned if you do, damned if you don't, eh?  Just send someone to ask, if they say yes, it's a CB, if they say no, it's still a CB.

But, as has been pointed out, CBs have traditionally been flimsy.  If you didn't want war, you would have talked.  If you wanted war, you attack.  That's always been how this world works.  Still, good to see CN going back to old school roots here, where we can argue for pages upon pages about CBs.  Feels good.

[The Big Bad]

30 minutes ago, James Spanier said:

 

Where to begin with your projectionism.

 

I'll humor you and avoid debating the merits of the CB in this response, though I have a feeling the only reason you wouldn't want to is because just about everyone involved (and a good few not involved) have conceded to the validity of the CB already.

 

First off, your own contradiction that nobody cares while also going out of your way to repeatedly decry the CB as shoddy within this thread. By stating your opinion in the thread you've established that you care, at least enough to build your own narrative around it (and then share it). Good on you, contributing to the community and helping to stave off the ever looming entropy of inactivity. You should really be more willing to recognize your own input as part of the discussion.

 

As for the the suggestion that two factions that have underlying tensions between them might want a fight with one another...I'm not sure why you think that it somehow makes or breaks the validity of the CB that eventually comes up. If Polar really wanted a fight with Argent and one of my members went and raided your nation, then when Buuyo DM'd me about it I told him to do something about it and blocked him, is that CB crap because Polar wanted the fight? Or because I implied I wanted it to happen? A CB is a CB, it stands (or doesn't) on its own merits. They can be fabricated or intentional sure, but they can also be (conveniently) valid. If you'd like to provide some reasoning for your stance on this particular CB and why it deserves a particular combination of descriptive words, by all means indulge.

 

To the larger point that CLAWS just really wanted this fight and should have just said so, as far as I can tell that's not actively the case here. There were several incidents that nearly led to war before this involving CLAWS and COBRAsphere, however they were all resolved. This instance had no real opportunity for diplomatic recourse and war resulted. If CLAWS really wanted this fight they could have cited some dumb dual membership thing with DBDC or even the Kids Next Door and forced a war over that. So far as I can tell most of their issues are with COBRA, so they could have also extrapolated the 'we' Lucius used in the logs to mean COBRA and opened a front with them. They could even use JA admitting he got the same sort of message from TDE as cause for war right now if that's all they wanted.

 

Finally, if you yourself say we have to defend this, but also posit that nobody uninvolved cares, why would anyone involved then care enough to cater to your demand to meet you at your level of dumbing things down into their most basic forms? If anything that sounds like a you problem.

 

I am not reading that, somebody brief me

[James Spanier]

2 minutes ago, HeroofTime55 said:

Hold on, back up.  Refusing some nobody's out-of-the-blue offer to spy for you is a CB?  Damned if you do, damned if you don't, eh?  Just send someone to ask, if they say yes, it's a CB, if they say no, it's still a CB.
 

 

I mean that was my point, if the goal was simply war your could contrive that into a CB by accusing JA's not revealing this information as a war reason.

 

4 minutes ago, HeroofTime55 said:

But, as has been pointed out, CBs have traditionally been flimsy.  If you didn't want war, you would have talked.  If you wanted war, you attack.  That's always been how this world works.

 

Again I'll stake out the position that when it's the AA leader in question, there isn't much to talk about.

 

7 minutes ago, HeroofTime55 said:

Still, good to see CN going back to old school roots here, where we can argue for pages upon pages about CBs.  Feels good.

 

I'm waiting for some of the older school individuals that we know lurk in the background to show up and post walls of text that make mine in this thread look like child's play. We already have janax posting here.

[DeathAdder]

13 minutes ago, James Spanier said:

-Snips-

 

You're currently wasting your time with two of the most pointless individuals on Bob. Just FYI.

[James Spanier]

7 minutes ago, DeathAdder said:

 

You're currently wasting your time with two of the most pointless individuals on Bob. Just FYI.

 

But I live for engaging in discourse so janax has more opportunities to make appearances, even if they're just to tell me his reign was the best one. It's a service I provide to the masses.

[HeroofTime55]

24 minutes ago, James Spanier said:

 

I mean that was my point, if the goal was simply war your could contrive that into a CB by accusing JA's not revealing this information as a war reason.

 

 

Again I'll stake out the position that when it's the AA leader in question, there isn't much to talk about.

 

I mean, by this metric, CLAWS has been a veritable CB factory against plenty of others, openly antagonizing several parties, not the least of which are COBRA and her allies of course, but also the various DBDC raid targets (hello Al Bundy who was still listed as CLAWS gov for much of those festivities).  It does boil down to relative might, of course.  CLAWS are big boys with big allies, so they can get away with it, and then turn around and act offended at a rather slight violation and use it as an excuse.  Same as it's always been from the dawn of time.

 

11 minutes ago, DeathAdder said:

 

You're currently wasting your time with two of the most pointless individuals on Bob. Just FYI.

But you HAVE heard of me

[DeathAdder]

4 minutes ago, James Spanier said:

But I live for engaging in discourse so janax has more opportunities to make appearances, even if they're just to tell me his reign was the best one. It's a service I provide to the masses.

Janax making appearances is always pretty good.

 

 

3 minutes ago, HeroofTime55 said:

But you HAVE heard of me

 

I've heard of both of you. TBB has successfully taken up Starfox's old position as the NpO Mouthpiece that everyone ignores as he attempts to not-so-subtly rewrite history by pretending any CB on here was at all valid and not just accepted because of the power projected by the one issuing it at the time, while citing no actual examples of the supposed "just CB's" that 'used to happen on Bob'. And which no one else can remember.

 

You're just tagging along as his mouthbreathing entourage in hopes of finally, after all of these years, stumbling your way into writing something profoundly revealing to the community.

 

I think that covers it.

[HeroofTime55]

20 minutes ago, DeathAdder said:

I've heard of both of you. TBB has successfully taken up Starfox's old position as the NpO Mouthpiece that everyone ignores as he attempts to not-so-subtly rewrite history by pretending any CB on here was at all valid and not just accepted because of the power projected by the one issuing it at the time, while citing no actual examples of the supposed "just CB's" that 'used to happen on Bob'. And which no one else can remember.

 

You're just tagging along as his mouthbreathing entourage in hopes of finally, after all of these years, stumbling your way into writing something profoundly revealing to the community.

 

I think that covers it.

This take is as amusing as it is wrong.  But don't let me correct you.  Tell me more.

 

Edited September 27, 2020 by HeroofTime55

[James Spanier]

8 minutes ago, HeroofTime55 said:

I mean, by this metric, CLAWS has been a veritable CB factory against plenty of others, openly antagonizing several parties, not the least of which are COBRA and her allies of course, but also the various DBDC raid targets (hello Al Bundy who was still listed as CLAWS gov for much of those festivities).  It does boil down to relative might, of course.  CLAWS are big boys with big allies, so they can get away with it, and then turn around and act offended at a rather slight violation and use it as an excuse.  Same as it's always been from the dawn of time.

 

I've never liked ghosting for raiding purposes.

 

The antagonism cut both ways, and often the next one was justified by the existence of the previous one, with both sides fully aware all they were doing was spinning the wheel around and around, a little faster each time.

 

Relative might can indeed determine if war is declared or not, however, situation does also determine if diplomacy is bothered with at all. Who do you suppose CLAWS would talk to and what about in this situation that wouldn't just result in war anyway?

[DeathAdder]

1 minute ago, HeroofTime55 said:

This take it as amusing as it is wrong.  But don't let me correct you.  Tell me more.

 

Nah. I've given you enough attention this month. Run along now.