Warrior Ethos

[CrinkledStraw]

2 hours ago, White Chocolate said:

I told our government that this would be posted on the OWF in less than 24 hours.  Thanks for proving me right.  
 

The person apologized in private.  I guess if you all can not accept that, that is your choice. 

Why did no one in CLAWS say something where it was posted? In public.

 

Sick that you’re aiding it.

[CrinkledStraw]

1 hour ago, veracity said:

Lex's name was not on the list. Had he been added at the appropriate time this issue could have been avoided. 

You knew who you were attacking. 
 

With your comments and in game.

[CrinkledStraw]

57 minutes ago, veracity said:

Can you speak exactly to the degree of humiliation there was? How am I to know if there is humiliation if one does not communicate that to me?

This person wants you to accept his apology.

 

This is disgusting.

[Lord Hitchcock]

4 minutes ago, CrinkledStraw said:

Why did no one in CLAWS say something where it was posted? In public.

 

Sick that you’re aiding it.

White Chocolate is just the bad type... the unethical type with no moral values and no faithfulness.

 

We’ve all had that one where we could never bring home to our mums.

[Tankobite]

57 minutes ago, Lord Hitchcock said:

White Chocolate is just the bad type... the unethical type with no moral values and no faithfulness.

 

We’ve all had that one where we could never bring home to our mums.

No need to go there. We're not trying to join in the sexism.

[Lord Hitchcock]

16 minutes ago, Tankobite said:

No need to go there. We're not trying to join in the sexism.

It was in reference to her political ambitions.
 

If sexism was construed in that remark then I apologize.

And I appreciate you holding me accountable in a timely fashion and not supporting that notion. It speaks volumes for the Character and Integrity of the Cobra Sphere and their morality. An example CLAWs should take notice of.

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Lord Hitchcock

[kerschbs]

1 hour ago, Lord Hitchcock said:

White Chocolate is just the bad type... the unethical type with no moral values and no faithfulness.

 

Nail, head.

[Lyanna Mormont]

[Master Hakai]

big sliiiiiiiiiiiiiime!!!!!!!!!!

[Tankobite]

2 hours ago, Lord Hitchcock said:

It was in reference to her political ambitions.
 

If sexism was construed in that remark then I apologize.

And I appreciate you holding me accountable in a timely fashion and not supporting that notion. It speaks volumes for the Character and Integrity of the Cobra Sphere and their morality. An example CLAWs should take notice of.

 

Didn't mean to sound like I was jumping down your throat. Just figure we should be consistent, whether it be our friends or some creeper in a mursuit.

[White Chocolate]

5 hours ago, General Kanabis said:

Would you look at that.

It's almost like this is what you wanted.

Well have at it, defend the sexual predator.

We have put up with some creepy stuff from the stalkers in your AA.

That includes Claude tracking Lyanna's OWF activity and sending her screens of pages she has been viewing.

Enough is enough.

 

It's almost like you humiliated her in public and tried to make amends hours later in private.

Imagine that.

Not gonna mention how you wanted to attack NPO or are you currently drafting an apology letter for that too?

 

 

4 hours ago, CrinkledStraw said:

Why did no one in CLAWS say something where it was posted? In public.

 

Sick that you’re aiding it.

 

Look - when someone has an issue with a member of an alliance there are a few steps that are generally followed.  First the issues is brought to the attention of a government member in the alliance.  This is often done in private, not in public and if it is done in public, okay - but do not be surprised that CLAWS government does not regularly pay much attention to what is said in our general discord channel.  Busy nation leaders have busy schedules.  (OOC: real life is > than CN)

 

Once a government member becomes aware of the issue, then that member can bring it back to the entire government and discuss the issue.  This can take time too as everyone has different schedules.  (OOC: again - real life > than CN). 

 

It was talked about by government, Jazzy DID make a statement in public about it and that statement was recognized by Lyanna in public.  Then Jazzy shut down the public area, which was something I advised against BECAUSE Admin knows it will be brought up by you all in public on the OWF, but he didn't care much and, frankly,  I understand his pain.

 

I suggested Jazzy open up the Cobra embassy which, when he is done dealing with the busy schedule of a leader of a nation (OOC: isn't busy WORKING in RL) he might do...or maybe not - regardless, it can wait a couple hours. 

 

Back to what happened.  Government had a chance to talk to the member you all had an issue with - i.e. veracity.  He explained the situation from his end.  Giving a chance to one's members to explain their actions before taking an action is part of being alliance government.  It ALSO takes time as the member has other things to deal with to and may log in when he or she has time.  (OOC: real life is > than CN) He agreed it was not a good comment and apologized to Lyanna in private.  If that was not enough, she could have told him so in private and it could be discussed further.  Also, you all certainly know how to reach claude directly on discord if needed.

 

Then Cobra members attacked veracity that night. 

 

Speaking for only myself as I am NOT government and I do not control CLAWS, in my opinion, Cobra lost any "moral high-ground" you might have had by attacking.  No one from CLAWS said that was okay - it was not an agreed to solution.

 

Did you have the "right" to respond that way?  Sure.  In my opinion though, you really did not give much time for anything on a non-military level to be worked out any step of the way. 

 

(OOC: what you did do is annoy me enough to actually feel like I needed to respond when I should be dealing with real life work right now.  Congrats on that.  I'm going to have to work later hours now.  /me sigh )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by White Chocolate

[CrinkledStraw]

What a sorry response considering the comment was left SEEN and unresponded to for nearly 8 hours. And there was, what 12+ hours after it was seen before anyone attacked. 

 

And yes, COBRA attacked as your apology from the member was clearly BS (see their comments in this thread), and CLAWS clearly supports this person still. There has obviously been enough time to notice it now AND talk to the offender. I'm still wondering where I'll see that CLAWS does, in fact, not support this sort of behavior. Plenty of time was given and you still have the opportunity. I suppose I'll just keep waiting.

 

Quote

If that was not enough, she could have told him so in private and it could be discussed further.

Gross. So you suggest that someone continue talking to the person who made a disgusting comment already.

 

The way this SHOULD have been handled: 

 

1. PUBLIC comment "CLAWS does not support comments like this from its members at any time for any reason."

2. Kick the offender, let them take their punishment, bring them back later if the government chooses to associate their alliance with such scum. 

 

The way it should NOT be handled

He tried to say sorry (but also says now that there's no way that he could have known it was harassing), and a couple people from CLAWS said "oh golly, we'll take care of this privately!" Apparently CLAWS taking care of this is sending him war aid. 

 

All of this in addition to them attacking Lex who was clearly protected. There's no way on Earth or Bob they didn't know who they were attacking.

 

Imagine supporting this person. I certainly can't, for any reason.

Edited July 29, 2020 by CrinkledStraw

[Johnny Apocalypse]

51 minutes ago, White Chocolate said:

 

 

Look - when someone has an issue with a member of an alliance there are a few steps that are generally followed.  First the issues is brought to the attention of a government member in the alliance.  This is often done in private, not in public and if it is done in public, okay - but do not be surprised that CLAWS government does not regularly pay much attention to what is said in our general discord channel.  Busy nation leaders have busy schedules.  (OOC: real life is > than CN)

 

Once a government member becomes aware of the issue, then that member can bring it back to the entire government and discuss the issue.  This can take time too as everyone has different schedules.  (OOC: again - real life > than CN). 

 

It was talked about by government, Jazzy DID make a statement in public about it and that statement was recognized by Lyanna in public.  Then Jazzy shut down the public area, which was something I advised against BECAUSE Admin knows it will be brought up by you all in public on the OWF, but he didn't care much and, frankly,  I understand his pain.

 

I suggested Jazzy open up the Cobra embassy which, when he is done dealing with the busy schedule of a leader of a nation (OOC: isn't busy WORKING in RL) he might do...or maybe not - regardless, it can wait a couple hours. 

 

Back to what happened.  Government had a chance to talk to the member you all had an issue with - i.e. veracity.  He explained the situation from his end.  Giving a chance to one's members to explain their actions before taking an action is part of being alliance government.  It ALSO takes time as the member has other things to deal with to and may log in when he or she has time.  (OOC: real life is > than CN) He agreed it was not a good comment and apologized to Lyanna in private.  If that was not enough, she could have told him so in private and it could be discussed further.  Also, you all certainly know how to reach claude directly on discord if needed.

 

Then Cobra members attacked veracity that night. 

 

Speaking for only myself as I am NOT government and I do not control CLAWS, in my opinion, Cobra lost any "moral high-ground" you might have had by attacking.  No one from CLAWS said that was okay - it was not an agreed to solution.

 

Did you have the "right" to respond that way?  Sure.  In my opinion though, you really did not give much time for anything on a non-military level to be worked out any step of the way. 

 

(OOC: what you did do is annoy me enough to actually feel like I needed to respond when I should be dealing with real life work right now.  Congrats on that.  I'm going to have to work later hours now.  /me sigh )

 

You seem to be only addressing veracity's OOC comments, which as you have said an apology has been made. That is their business to deal with and should have no bearing on the political nature of the sequence of events. Apology made, whether or not it is accepted or whatever is their business because of the nature of the comment itself not being IC.

 

However that being said; my interest is solely focussed on the actions of Veracity with regards to his attack on a Kashmir nation (their former leader no-less) and his attempt to feign ignorance that he "didn't know" - both you and I know this is not at all true. Let us also add the incident where he tried to coerce us into plotting against your ally NPO and we see a correlation of aggressive and malicious behaviour toward us and our direct allies. Whether or not that is supported by CLAWS as a whole or if Veracity is acting on his own is irrelevant; he flies your banner and his actions are your responsibility. Stop trying to deflect and accept responsiblity.

 

I have spoken with Claude in private and detailed what our expectations are from CLAWS in order to resolve this. A simple "we're sorry" and "we told him to stop doing that" is not sufficient. Veracity knew exactly what he was doing, he is not some inactive nation who is oblivious to the politics of this world. If he were then chances are we'd be more open to dealing with this privately, but given continued aggressive behaviour from your alliance I am now inclined to draw a line in the sand and declare that this ends here and now. We do not believe for a second that he did not know what he was doing, as has been made pretty clear by one of the leaders of your own bloc-mate earlier in this thread.

 

You have our requirements for de-escalation, the choice is yours whether or not you choose to acknowledge wrong-doing on your part or try and fob it off with more behind-the-scene unrepentant and insincere promises that it won't happen again. We are not the party in the wrong, you are the aggressor against our ally that we publicly stated our protection for (if our long-standing treaty wasn't enough to give you a hint that it was not okay to hit Lex)

 

Again, we responded publicly because your government shut down your channel for our members, you also left our own channel at the same time. Now I don't know about you but that doesn't exactly scream "We're open to diplomacy why didn't you contact us?" it says quite the opposite.

 

Either you approve/don't care about Veracity's IC actions or you condemn them. We request clarity of your intentions in the form of a public statement.

Considering the alternative? I think I know which is the more sensible choice.

[CrinkledStraw]

4 minutes ago, Johnny Apocalypse said:

We do not believe for a second that he did not know what he was doing, as has been made pretty clear by one of the leaders of your own bloc-mate earlier in this thread.

 

This is my favorite part.

 

He knew exactly who he was attacking and everyone knows it. 

[White Chocolate]

7 minutes ago, Johnny Apocalypse said:

 

You seem to be only addressing veracity's OOC comments, which as you have said an apology has been made. That is their business to deal with and should have no bearing on the political nature of the sequence of events. Apology made, whether or not it is accepted or whatever is their business because of the nature of the comment itself not being IC.

 

However that being said; my interest is solely focussed on the actions of Veracity with regards to his attack on a Kashmir nation (their former leader no-less) and his attempt to feign ignorance that he "didn't know" - both you and I know this is not at all true. Let us also add the incident where he tried to coerce us into plotting against your ally NPO and we see a correlation of aggressive and malicious behaviour toward us and our direct allies. Whether or not that is supported by CLAWS as a whole or if Veracity is acting on his own is irrelevant; he flies your banner and his actions are your responsibility. Stop trying to deflect and accept responsiblity.

 

I have spoken with Claude in private and detailed what our expectations are from CLAWS in order to resolve this. A simple "we're sorry" and "we told him to stop doing that" is not sufficient. Veracity knew exactly what he was doing, he is not some inactive nation who is oblivious to the politics of this world. If he were then chances are we'd be more open to dealing with this privately, but given continued aggressive behaviour from your alliance I am now inclined to draw a line in the sand and declare that this ends here and now. We do not believe for a second that he did not know what he was doing, as has been made pretty clear by one of the leaders of your own bloc-mate earlier in this thread.

 

You have our requirements for de-escalation, the choice is yours whether or not you choose to acknowledge wrong-doing on your part or try and fob it off with more behind-the-scene unrepentant and insincere promises that it won't happen again. We are not the party in the wrong, you are the aggressor against our ally that we publicly stated our protection for (if our long-standing treaty wasn't enough to give you a hint that it was not okay to hit Lex)

 

Again, we responded publicly because your government shut down your channel for our members, you also left our own channel at the same time. Now I don't know about you but that doesn't exactly scream "We're open to diplomacy why didn't you contact us?" it says quite the opposite.

 

Either you approve/don't care about Veracity's IC actions or you condemn them. We request clarity of your intentions in the form of a public statement.

Considering the alternative? I think I know which is the more sensible choice.

I am not a member of NPO in this wonderful world of ours called Planet Bob, but I have been around long enough to know they care zero for what some nobody member of some alliance (ally or not) thinks.  To talk about rolling NPO is all but a meme around here.  If I am wrong, NPO is perfectly able to let CLAWS know they are offended by our member expressing his own opinion in a private conversation and I am 100% sure we would work it out with them.

 

Our member has learned a VERY valuable lesson here though in addition to the need to treat a young woman with respect.  
 

Do not say anything to a member of Cobra in private and expect for a second that it will not be used against you and/or your alliance if they think it suits their needs.  THAT is a valuable lesson and I hope others are learning it from this example if it was not perfectly clear to them before.  
 

If CLAWS accepts your peace offer,  then in my opinion that is the lesson he will probably learn.  

[Johnny Apocalypse]

1 minute ago, White Chocolate said:

I am not a member of NPO in this wonderful world of ours called Planet Bob, but I have been around long enough to know they care zero for what some nobody member of some alliance (ally or not) thinks.  To talk about rolling NPO is all but a meme around here.  If I am wrong, NPO is perfectly able to let CLAWS know they are offended by our member expressing his own opinion in a private conversation and I am 100% sure we would work it out with them.

 

Our member has learned a VERY valuable lesson here though in addition to the need to treat a young woman with respect.  
 

Do not say anything to a member of Cobra in private and expect for a second that it will not be used against you and/or your alliance if they think it suits their needs.  THAT is a valuable lesson and I hope others are learning it from this example if it was not perfectly clear to them before.  
 

If CLAWS accepts your peace offer,  then in my opinion that is the lesson he will probably learn.  

 

I'm sure they couldn't give a monkey's about people plotting against them, they're used to it. But let's say hypothetically that there was some deranged plot against them; I'm pretty sure that would in fact be used as a CB against us if it suited them and they would be well within their rights to do so.

 

If you say things which you fear can be used against you to me in private? Then clearly what you are revealing is inherently problematic and your refusal to address it only makes the problem bigger. I am more than capable of speaking with people off-the-record if requested (I'm sure a number of them -some allies- could in fact vouch for that) but we have been shown no respect when it comes to matters like this. All you do is deflect and try to sweep things under the rug and we're sick and tired of it. (Also yeah, don't privately message us asking us to plot against x alliance and expect us to just ignore it- talk about an own goal....jeez)

[Lord Hitchcock]

The lesson we’ve learned here is that Bureaucracy can be a weakness.

 

What should have been a common sense event and one where CLAWs took accountability for their member’s actions. To provide a timely and proper reaction, it turned into a paper pushing exercise through idle staffing and paralysis through analysis- to the point where they let Careless @Claude handle it.

 

This resulted in the perception that the government’s EQ (emotional intelligence) is lacking- serverly.

 

This same environment reminds of Super Nova X, before Junka took them over and cut all the red tape.

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Lord Hitchcock

[James Spanier]

I'll clarify my post since the intended slight was overlooked: for it to have been intentional by veracity would have required him to have read the thread first and would then have known what he was doing.

 

What I'm accusing is that he didn't read the thread until just before making that stupid counter argument, which makes the list defence utterly nonsense to try and use after the fact.

[Claude]

52 minutes ago, Lord Hitchcock said:

The lesson we’ve learned here is that Bureaucracy can be a weakness.

 

What should have been a common sense event and one where CLAWs took accountability for their member’s actions. To provide a timely and proper reaction, it turned into a paper pushing exercise through idle staffing and paralysis through analysis- to the point where they let Careless @Claude handle it.

 

This resulted in the perception that the government’s EQ (emotional intelligence) is lacking- serverly.

 

This same environment reminds of Super Nova X, before Junka took them over and cut all the red tape.

 

We don't care about your opinion  you are irrelevant and a bottom feeder let the big boys handle this and go crawl back  under  a rock junka jr. 

[General Kanabis]

37 minutes ago, Claude said:

We don't care about your opinion  you are irrelevant and a bottom feeder let the big boys handle this and go crawl back  under  a rock junka jr. 

 

This is the Open World Forum, not Claude's Safe Space.

Don't change the subject

 

 

If Veracity knew what he was doing, then he had clearance.

This was not random.

There is a pattern of clear aggression towards COBRA and our allies recently and we have been reasonable in mediating those conflicts (often, very much against my will).

 

If Veracity is actually just clumsy (lol, do I know you?), then I blame the system within which he is confined.

 

If the former, then your entire alliance is to blame and this was all a hack job.

Bad bait is bad.

In which case you weren't counting on Veracity having a record with COBRA,

or his willingness to degrade himself to such an extent.

 

If the latter, then maybe it is time to take a hard long look at yourselves and possibly consider declaring neutrality altogether.

Edited July 29, 2020 by General Kanabis

[James Spanier]

There is (at least) a third option where he didn't know the arrangement but did know Lex and acted with individual intention. We've established that he's quite a clod.

 

The truth is usually mundane.

[Master Hakai]

On 6/22/2020 at 7:40 PM, General Kanabis said:

the nations of COBRA, The Imperial Entente, Sellswords, Ordo Cyberneticus, and Screaming Red Asses commit themselves to the honorable defense and protection of Kashmir members in the process of regrouping.

 

Someone attacked a Kashmir nation, so uh. what are we arguing about?

 

I'd say just work out how many rounds the claws guy stays at war with Cobra, TIE, SS, OC, SRA, and move on

[CrinkledStraw]

18 minutes ago, James Spanier said:

There is (at least) a third option where he didn't know the arrangement but did know Lex and acted with individual intention. We've established that he's quite a clod.

 

The truth is usually mundane.

Perhaps he did act with individual intention.

 

Now CLAWS is supporting that intention by aiding him while at war and not admitting that he messed up. 
 

Super stoked to watch them flail about supporting someone who is garbage.

Edited July 29, 2020 by CrinkledStraw

[Master Hakai]

13 minutes ago, CrinkledStraw said:

Perhaps he did act with individual intention.

 

Now CLAWS is supporting that intention by aiding him while at war and not admitting that he messed up. 
 

Super stoked to watch them flail about supporting someone who is garbage.

 

I didn't realize white choc and someone else were sending the dude war aid to help in the fight against lex quintus, lol. YIKES! Hate to see it

[Kapleo]

51 minutes ago, Master Hakai said:

 

Someone attacked a Kashmir nation, so uh. what are we arguing about?

 

I'd say just work out how many rounds the claws guy stays at war with Cobra, TIE, SS, OC, SRA, and move on

Exactly, this shouldn't be so hard to settle. A protected nation was attacked and the offending nation now has to face consequences over it, especially after obviously doing it on purpose.  Two rounds minimum (6 wars). If I remember well that was the punishment set by RFI against Korlath when he attacked your protects.  And reopening the channels for coordination would be good too, for the sake of avoiding misunderstandings like the ones that lead to our previous conflict.