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6 minutes ago, Stewie said:

[...] Cuba [...] then realised that land raiding was a thing ...]

It wasn't Cuba that first realized that, he wasn't even the second one.

 

I wasn't asking about your tech, Stewie, it has always been clear to me that you're clean. It's about some of your long time friends that I am concerned.

When one of the previous tech multies scandal came out another player I had in high consideration (Aza) came out and said that he had known/suspected and he had chosen to look the other way, for friendship. That post of his must still be on this board somewhere.

My point is that a friend doesn't put you in a situation in which you have to look the other way, and at any rate one should not do it. Integrity is like love and life, you have it or not, there's no middle ground.

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8 hours ago, jerdge said:

[ooc]

Since this is beyond the game I don't have to be neutral about it. CN is plagued and has long been plagued by this sort of stuff.

Those heavily involved* into it should totally be ashamed for what they did and continue to do, which is a large, decisive part of what led countless players - some of which had developed much much better, interesting and entertaining characters than most, e.g. Shattenmann - and whole communities to lose interest into the game. This game has been killed by multiple factors, one of which is undoubtedly the rampant cheating that has almost always remained unaddressed... Which last thing leads to the necessary corollary, that the admin and the moderators haven't been doing - definitely not well enough, at least - what they had declared was their job, i.e. policing the game to try keep it as fair as possible. TBH I don't wish to complain too much about them, the admin gave us a free game and it's his to take care of, after all - it's his right to let it collapse and he is definitely entitled to spend his time on something else! - and the mods have always been unpaid volounteers which too often had to do with childish crap put forth by whiny, rude and toxic players.

Talking of which, Stewie, my friend, I am afraid that, before complaining about others, you should think a bit about the people you and your friends supported for that many years in this game. On April 6th 2019 the top nation in this game, Jerel, lost almost 60k tech, that (evidently) had been received from multies. To provide some perspective, I'll have you notice that only a 55-ish nations currently have 60k total tech levels or more, i.e. of the over 600k nations simulated this far one out of maybe 7,000 or 9,000 (or more) ever had an overall tech level that matched what has been removed from Jerel only. Furthermore, Jerel probably received (much) more tech - and in unknown quantities - from multies, but the evidence collected by the mods didn't allow them to identify all of it.

Since DBDC nations used to receive tech from the same tech farms, and did so for years, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that Cuba, "unstoppable" (I'll let you figure out his in-game name) and others also received tens of thousands of tech levels from illegal sources. Then, let's take into account the tech raided from other nations thanks to that illegally hoarded firepower. Let's talk of the immense quantity of land raided as well. Let's talk of the huge money reserves also collected thanks to that land. Let's talk of the incessant and annoying harassment of other players - in and outside the game - for and about suggestions posted in the Suggestion box forum to try address the imbalance that had been introduced into the game by such cheating on top of flawed game mechanics.

Was all of this visible and clear to the casual observer? Heck, yes! It's several years that I only pay some marginal attention to this remnant of a game and it has always been crystal clear to me. Obviously I didn't and I don't know the fine details, I hadn't hard evidence (it wasn't my job to collect it and I didn't have the means either), but the general picture is totally there and evident to be seen by anyone, which incidentally and as said above can also explain why people continued to leave in disgust.

Back to you, Stewie, how have you been aligned, and where has your in-game friendship been, with regard to the DBDC and affiliates, all these years? Can you really point your finger to the NPO? These are honest questions, for all I know your answers may surprise some, and me too.

 

In general, to you massive cheaters out there, I honestly and sincerely shake my head, you sad losers. You don't win anything by cheating in CN and you forever lose the opportunity to demonstrate, foremost to yourself, what you could have done and achieved by playing fair. Try work on your lack of self-confidence because your human prospects don't look good, otherwise.

In your current state, all an honest person could do with you is to fart in your general direction.

 

* And yes, players that lead the New Pacific Order, I'm totally talking of you too - you don't need to figure it out -  and calling you out. And I mean all of you in the Pacifican leadership all the way back to several years ago, since those at the top - even if not directly involved, and honestly I seriously doubt it, anyway - would have had to be beyond dumb not to realize what was and is going on under their nose.

[/ooc]

 

 

Side issue but: what has Arrnea to do with anything, now?

It was Letum, NPO Emperor at the time, who requested via an announcement on these boards to the Admin and mods to do something about the multi tech. I was not NPO leadershio back then, and iirc not even in NPO, so I can not comment on any private reports to the mods or admin that happened back then.

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3 hours ago, Tiberius said:

It was Letum, NPO Emperor at the time, who requested via an announcement on these boards to the Admin and mods to do something about the multi tech. I was not NPO leadershio back then, and iirc not even in NPO, so I can not comment on any private reports to the mods or admin that happened back then.

 

Times sure must have changed with everything that's happened since then.  Go home, toy Roman soldier.

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3 hours ago, Tiberius said:

It was Letum, NPO Emperor at the time, who requested via an announcement on these boards to the Admin and mods to do something about the multi tech. I was not NPO leadershio back then, and iirc not even in NPO, so I can not comment on any private reports to the mods or admin that happened back then.

 

So you emulated the multi tech, just with human bots paid for via distribution of illegal copyrighted material? Good to know. 🙄

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16 minutes ago, Canik said:

The above do not represent NG. NG definitely really has changed and does not intend to continue it's rogue and trolling ways.
This message brought to you by What Stewie Would Have You Believe SuperPAC

 

What was that about your little friend Kaznawim getting involved with this too?  Oh no, how dare we seek facts!  Truly revolting of us.

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1 hour ago, King Cyan said:

 

What was that about your little friend Kaznawim getting involved with this too?  Oh no, how dare we seek facts!  Truly revolting of us.


You are not seeking facts, you are mudslinging. Stewie simply linked to other world issues there was no fact-seeking. There was no fact-seeking in your post, only accusation and insult. Caustic's post was the closest to "fact-seeking" because he put a question mark but ending it with "Good to know." it was really more of an accusation.

Also this is not an appropriate avenue for fact-seeking. If you have suspicions or complaints you should report them here:
https://forums.cybernations.net/forum/19-moderation/

As for Kaznawim. He absolutely was not involved. His ban was unrelated and quickly overturned. Not that we are supposed to discuss Moderation issues here but since YOU brought it up, I think it's fair I get to respond.

What you are doing here is being antagonistic.

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1 hour ago, Canik said:


You are not seeking facts, you are mudslinging. Stewie simply linked to other world issues there was no fact-seeking. There was no fact-seeking in your post, only accusation and insult. Caustic's post was the closest to "fact-seeking" because he put a question mark but ending it with "Good to know." it was really more of an accusation.

Also this is not an appropriate avenue for fact-seeking. If you have suspicions or complaints you should report them here:
https://forums.cybernations.net/forum/19-moderation/

As for Kaznawim. He absolutely was not involved. His ban was unrelated and quickly overturned. Not that we are supposed to discuss Moderation issues here but since YOU brought it up, I think it's fair I get to respond.

What you are doing here is being antagonistic.

 

Why not both?  Not like you've been antagonizing us this whole time either, right?  I'm getting the vibe that it seems to be only okay when you do it.

 

Also by all means go ahead and defend anything NPO does.  FTW needs all the help it can get!

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10 minutes ago, King Cyan said:

 

Why not both?  Not like you've been antagonizing us this whole time either, right?  I'm getting the vibe that it seems to be only okay when you do it.

 

Also by all means go ahead and defend anything NPO does.  FTW needs all the help it can get!


Being antagonistic in and of itself is not so bad but your alliance is trying to sue for peace and claiming it can turn over a new leaf. Your posts are counter-productive to NG's supposed goal of peace. But, please, continue on. :)

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58 minutes ago, Canik said:


Being antagonistic in and of itself is not so bad but your alliance is trying to sue for peace and claiming it can turn over a new leaf. Your posts are counter-productive to NG's supposed goal of peace. But, please, continue on. :)

 

I actually agree with Canik.  It appears that at least some in NPO, FTW, and NG are circling a real discussion.  For that, I am thankful.  Being antagonistic at this point really isn't helpful in getting a meaningful dialog to move forward. 

 

There will always be time for trash-talk and trolling in the OWF, etc.  But, right now, I would offer that a cooler approach would be most beneficial to all.

 

I speak only for me and not for Non Grata in general, but, I support and respect the dialog and approach sketched out in the Discord chat between Stewie and Joe Black.  Thank you both.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Canik said:


Being antagonistic in and of itself is not so bad but your alliance is trying to sue for peace and claiming it can turn over a new leaf. Your posts are counter-productive to NG's supposed goal of peace. But, please, continue on. :)

 

You must be new here.

 

NG have always been antagonistic on the OWF.

 

And until I sit in a room with everyone and we actually start discussing peace you are talking out your ass Canik 

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2 hours ago, Thrash said:

Why other world issues are having bearing in this world is beyond me. Either through out-right intentions or hidden ones.

They're not otherworldly issues only.

Directly they may have no bearing with NG, with your conflict, with this thread and with this forum, but they have bearing in this world. They shape it.

 

Canik is formally connect, the issue should be discussed elsewhere. However similar issues have been downplayed or outright ignored too many times, when discussed where supposedly they should have, and here we are. At this point it's absurd to expect that people fill in the correct form and wait for a reaction. Talking of the issue if, when and where it surfaces is the only thing that makes sense, assuming that anything here makes sense anymore.

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1 hour ago, jerdge said:

They're not otherworldly issues only.

Directly they may have no bearing with NG, with your conflict, with this thread and with this forum, but they have bearing in this world. They shape it.

 

Canik is formally connect, the issue should be discussed elsewhere. However similar issues have been downplayed or outright ignored too many times, when discussed where supposedly they should have, and here we are. At this point it's absurd to expect that people fill in the correct form and wait for a reaction. Talking of the issue if, when and where it surfaces is the only thing that makes sense, assuming that anything here makes sense anymore.

 

Jerdge,

 

I respect you a great deal, but I disagree. The decay of social decorum is one major factor in the overall quality of life. Short any proof of wrong doing here there isn't anything to be done, except talk the issue to death with no results. And I wouldn't normally object to the endless cycle of talking, but since this takes place on other realms, it can only lead to further decay.

 

Sincerely,

Joseph M. Black

 

P.S. God, how I miss the intellectuals debate subforum on the old forum.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Joseph Black said:

 

Jerdge,

 

I respect you a great deal, but I disagree. The decay of social decorum is one major factor in the overall quality of life. Short any proof of wrong doing here there isn't anything to be done, except talk the issue to death with no results. And I wouldn't normally object to the endless cycle of talking, but since this takes place on other realms, it can only lead to further decay.

 

Sincerely,

Joseph M. Black

 

P.S. God, how I miss the intellectuals debate subforum on the old forum.

 

 

 

To be fair we were discussing nuclear fission and fusion in NG's private channel the other month.  

 

There are plenty of intellectuals on Bob

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10 minutes ago, Stewie said:

 

To be fair we were discussing nuclear fission and fusion in NG's private channel the other month.  

 

There are plenty of intellectuals on Bob

 

Stewie,

 

My comment was not supposed to be an insult. I know there are many great intellectual conversations, they just don't exist on the world stage, the way they use to.

 

Sincerely,

Joseph M. Black

Edited by Joseph Black
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Everyone who has participated in the watering down of our game (because despite Admin's generosity,  it's still ours) should feel bad about themselves as Jerdge has already mentioned, and with good reason.

Must be exhausting to keep up with it all and I've been advocating against it since I first came here, fighting against it even.

 

But Jerdge is also right in stating it doesn't exactly have one unique source of origin.

Sure, I can sit here and point at CLAWS/Doom and aNiMaLz/FtW, or NPO in general, but why point that far? 

I know there are/were cases nearer home than I'd care to admit, even though I've always been against it myself.

Rogue > Multi

 

This thread is doing what it was meant to do, regardless of whether or not Joe Black feels intellectually challenged..

And that is- to generate discourse 

 

 

 

 

Edited by General Kanabis
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4 hours ago, Stewie said:

 

You must be new here.

 

NG have always been antagonistic on the OWF.

 

And until I sit in a room with everyone and we actually start discussing peace you are talking out your ass Canik 


I mean that's kinda the point. NG is continuing on as it always has. That and it's just not a good idea in general when suing for peace to continue to antagonize. 🤣

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2 hours ago, Canik said:


I mean that's kinda the point. NG is continuing on as it always has. That and it's just not a good idea in general when suing for peace to continue to antagonize. 🤣

 

If you feel antagonized, it may have more to do with the lack of respect we have for you- and for once, this isn't me trolling.

 

Several members of prominent alliances have echoed our grievances with FtW, which are much more legitimate than you'd care to believe.

If you refuse to see change that's only because you're forcing yourself to consider our war with you separate to the NPO assault, when we both know they are one and the same, at least as far as your safety is concerned.

Should NPO withdraw, FtW would follow suit.

Not, I think, the other way around.

 

Our attitude towards Oc has definitely changed but the change is ongoing given that we are, after all, engaged in a long bitter war against them.

Your flag edit was an opening with which to proceed and begin a mutual descent of aggressions while still keeping our dignity and culture (which is very much a troll culture), but you prefer a groveling surrender, and that I'm afraid, is out of the question for you and you alone.

Perhaps given enough time, Oculus can achieve this (possibly even earn it) and you may then piggy back off their success as usual, but don't expect us to demonstrate deference to you specifically, when there is none there to give.

 

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10 hours ago, Canik said:


I mean that's kinda the point. NG is continuing on as it always has. That and it's just not a good idea in general when suing for peace to continue to antagonize. 🤣

 

What should it matter what we say on the OWF? Who's reading it? Sure, we are, and that's why you see lots of posts from us. But that's because we contribute the community, while the rest of you would rather just sit around doing nothing. We're still interested in seeing this [ooc] game [/ooc] survive. And you know damn well we ain't suing for peace with FtW. You'll just follow suit if and when peace happens with Oc. If you want to stay at war if Oc peaces out, I'm sure we can arrange that.

Edited by Thrash
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I have a few questions.
The following questions will be based on the assumption that NG's eradication is not a  sine qua non for peace.:
1. Is the disbandment of NG the official endstate of this war? If not, what is the end state and is it possible for NG to demonstrate it in empirical ways beyond "change" and "growth?" 
2. Considering NG thought that their attempts to negotiate a surrender were thrown out of hand and the tone of the DoW treating them as rogues, I'm not sure any sort of behavioral change in the sense of being nice to you can be expected--they'll never not despise you, would keeping off OWF and mocking people be a step towards growth? But what other behaviors do you desire changed? Presumably they won't attempt the behavior elucidated in the following question in order to avoid another coalition war in the future, so this seems like a situation that would be resolved by a negotiation where they acknowledge this and promise to refrain from doing it again.

3. One of the casus belli was poaching of alliance members* and other issues were Caustic's attempts to get funding, I understand as well. What evidence can NG give besides an acknowledgement of this and a promise not to do so in the future that would be sufficient for a start in peace negotiations?

Now my other questions.
As far as I recall, the DoW stated that they were to be treated as rogues and never said anything about what would be sufficient supplication for peace talks, other than the implied removal of Caustic from leadership and disbandment of NG.
1. Thus, if the elimination of NG is the ultimate goal, does this apply to its players as well?
2. If not, how can any alliances be sure that if they take in members from NG they will not eventually be a target due to fears of these new members' agitation?

*OOC: I'd like to just say, I don't find this a particularly compelling casus belli, considering this is a game people are playing with free association and what not, if people are so easily swayed away from an alliance, maybe it isn't a good fit and their departure is better for keeping them interested in the game. But that's just my own opinion.

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2 hours ago, Tankobite said:

*OOC: I'd like to just say, I don't find this a particularly compelling casus belli, considering this is a game people are playing with free association and what not, if people are so easily swayed away from an alliance, maybe it isn't a good fit and their departure is better for keeping them interested in the game. But that's just my own opinion.

 

Poaching was never a valid CB and never will be.

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12 hours ago, General Kanabis said:

If you feel antagonized, it may have more to do with the lack of respect we have for you- and for once, this isn't me trolling.


I don't feel antagonized. It was NPO being attacked not FTW. Not that I think they 'feel' antagonized either. However the attempts to antagonize are still ill-advised, I think, if NG wants peace. Maybe NPO will give peace anyway but I don't see much reason for them to. Being diplomatic and humble is your best play and without demanding any conditions be met first. This is friendly advice, take it or leave it, I don't care. I am happy either way. :)
 

12 hours ago, General Kanabis said:

Should NPO withdraw, FtW would follow suit.

Not, I think, the other way around.


You're right if FTW had peaced when we changed our flag NPO would've stayed in. NPO has their own grievances with NG. I am aware NPO is your big problem, never said otherwise. You project a lot of ego onto me. You act as if I think and say FTW is the greatest when I do not.

 

12 hours ago, General Kanabis said:

we are, after all, engaged in a long bitter war against them


Bitter indeed, from your end.
 

12 hours ago, General Kanabis said:

Your flag edit was an opening with which to proceed and begin a mutual descent of aggressions while still keeping our dignity and culture (which is very much a troll culture), but you prefer a groveling surrender, and that I'm afraid, is out of the question for you and you alone.


Ego. Projecting Ego.

 

12 hours ago, General Kanabis said:

Perhaps given enough time, Oculus can achieve this (possibly even earn it) and you may then piggy back off their success as usual, but don't expect us to demonstrate deference to you specifically, when there is none there to give.


K. I don't care. You are again projecting ego.

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